Aircraft needed in Afghanistan

[JessTheDog]

Cost neutral operations, I never thought I would live to see the day.

"Callsign requesting close air support at grid reference...." (lots of bangs and shouting audible in the background)

"Sorry callsign, do you have a UIN for this mission. We're supposed to be cost neutral you know!"

Browne, Brown and Blair should be kidnapped and given to the Taliban tomorrow. The sight of their heads on an Afghan polo pitch would be a massive morale boost...for UK forces.

[nigegilb]

I am thinking about asking the BBC to show Carry on up the Khyber. Certainly makes more sense than listening to Des Browne at the depatch box telling us that the reason for the reinforcement was due to the unexpected success of the mission.

[JessTheDog]

SAS - no suggestion of that matey, but if the aircraft are U/S because the spares have been used up too early because the aircraft are being flown harder than the funding is provided for, then air support MAY be less available. As always, the boys will do what they can with what they have - I was just explaining the funding thing, which does limit the number of aircraft in theatre; hence the numbers of troops in contact one could support...

Nonsense.

Provide enough aircraft and enough spares otherwise lives will be lost due to criminal negligence.

Bliar's attempt at a top UN job is not worth risking sweat or blood for.

I say to the House as I said to ministers who have joined this government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat. That is other people's blood, toil, tears and sweat and not mine, and within the bounds of cost neutrality. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many months of struggle and suffering.

You ask, what is our policy? I say it is to wage war by land, sea, and air. War within the limits of cost neutrality and with all the strength God has given us, and to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. Within the bounds of cost neutrality.

You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs - Victory in spite of all terrors - Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival. As long as it is cost neutral.

[SASless]

If one considers six Apaches and six Harriers along with four ( is it?) Hercs ample support for the troops in the hills....I would suggest taking a little walk in Mo's turf! I bet it gets awfully lonesome way out there....knowing your CAS is in the mess, writing reports, having a Kip when the call goes out. The best efforts at responding still means a very long wait when you are up to your ass in Jihadi's intent upon marytrdom.

It takes long enough when you have CAS birds in airborne in a cab rank waiting for the call.

[Compressorstall]

If we want more aircraft, perhaps then we should stop carping on about Network Enabled Capability and enhanced technology meaning that we can do more with less. One swing role jet may be able to do recce and CAS whilst delivering the mail and calibrating the PAR, but it's not much use if it goes u/s on taxi is it now?

What's next? Call Centres for CAS? "Press One is you require a Show of Force, 2 if you require Strafe, 3 for Kinetic Effect or 4 if you wish to speak to an attendant...your call is important to us, you are number 24 in the queue..."

[RonO]

Presumably waging the Afghan op to a fixed budget was the price of Broon's cabinet vote. Fixed price wars, now there's a new idea. Why didn't we think of that earlier? The man's a freakin' genius.

[Reach]

Fixed price wars, now there's a new idea. Why didn't we think of that earlier?

Do we get to go home once the budget has been spent?

[Smoketoomuch]

Did I hear right? ITN News reckons we can chalk another one up for the UK Apache;

Errr..... A Chinook

Edit to add; The report said that a Chinook developed a fault whilst picking up troops in a hostile area. Another was sent and a decision was made to destroy the grounded machine.

[South Bound]

Guys, not condoning the level of airpower in theatre, but we all need to understand how the funding works. The IPTs are given a wedge of cash to support a number of aircraft flying a certain number of hours leading to a certain requirement for spares and Primary/P*/Minor etc servicings. That cash is normally scaled against day-to-day flying and when a new op comes along there is another pot of cash to supplement what they have - it is this pot that is capped by treasury. When it is gone, it is gone and cries for anything more would be unsustainable unless the wavy-haired Scotsman backs down and increases the budget (I guess that is happening at the moment).

No one doubts that we could use a whole lot more air out in theatre, but someone has to pay - the MoD is broke and the Treasury has set a limit. That gentlemen is the way of the World

[nigegilb]

SB, begs the question should we have gone in the first place? Blair said last week that Brig Butler can have anything he asks for. Sure makes that promise seems hollow. I think there is more to harrier funding than meets the eye. Believe me, Arbuthnot would not have said what he did unless the Treasury were getting their fingers in the pie. If there is not enough CAS then we will end up guarding our own fortifications whilst the Taleban get on with the job of running the country. Cake and arrse.

[Compressorstall]

Any update on the comments by Smoketoomuch?

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by South Bound

The IPTs are given a wedge of cash to support a number of aircraft flying a certain number of hours leading to a certain requirement for spares and Primary/P*/Minor etc servicings.

I thought Primary/P*/Minor servicings went out of the window when Lean and Pulse-line maintenance came in. For example this quote from BAe Systems Virtual News Room indicates:-

"Harrier Pulse-Line maintenance successfully moves Harrier GR7 aircraft in a 10-day ’pulse,’ through packaged maintenance activities, similar to industrial car plant manufacturing processes. Under this approach essential maintenance will be combined with upgrading the aircraft to the GR9 standard, which will result in the Harrier remaining in service until the arrival of the Future Joint Combat Aircraft in the next decade."

[Almost_done]

Originally Posted by MReyn24050

I thought Primary/P*/Minor servicings went out of the window when Lean and Pulse-line maintenance came in. For example this quote from BAe Systems Virtual News Room indicates:-
"Harrier Pulse-Line maintenance successfully moves Harrier GR7 aircraft in a 10-day ’pulse,’ through packaged maintenance activities, similar to industrial car plant manufacturing processes. Under this approach essential maintenance will be combined with upgrading the aircraft to the GR9 standard, which will result in the Harrier remaining in service until the arrival of the Future Joint Combat Aircraft in the next decade."

We do have other A/C in theatre and possibly others that still operate on the 'old' un PLUSE/LEAN system.

[South Bound]

Pulse is just a way of doing a servicing. The P/P*/M/M*/Mj all remain the same at the same frequencies - this policy is set by the IPT in conjunction with the aircraft DA. Pulse is intended to break these down into discreet packages that have a logical start and end, the advantage being that the processes during each stage are easier to manage and one aircraft found dead midway thorugh a servicing does not delay the whole line, just one small 'pulse' team.

This method is very traditional (the way we have always done it!), but people are starting to acknowledge that we over-maintain our aircraft and we can be more flexible. For instance, C17 has 6 (IIRC) Home Station Checks (HSCs, each taking between 5-14 wkg days) over a 2 year period that swallow up everything that needs to be done. There is no 'Major' equivalent, except that every now and then Boeing grab one of the fleet leaders and tear it down for an analytical critical inspection (ACI). The results of the ACI determine the content of the HSCs. This is a flexible policy that means we don't start tearing down brand new aircraft for in-depth inspection just to build in a maintenance stagger - this is one of the failures of the old system (has the first Typhoon had a minor yet?).

[MReyn24050]

South Bound

Thank you for that. I know that the Merlin schedules were being revised to meet Pulse and thought perhaps other Platforms were doing likewise.

Mel

[South Bound]

I think most IPTs are looking into it. Like it or loath it, Pulse presents an opportunity to break the work down into smaller chunks and rethink how best to make the whole thing efficient. It is my understanding that the IPTs are only just starting to think about reviewing the work that needs to be done as part of servicing packages, and much of the changes being considered are being directed from the front line. If it is barking mad, highlight it and get it sorted!

[aviationdoc]

Extra Aircarft

An extra Chinook will certainly make all the difference.
We certainly seem to be at the bottom of the barrel as regards helicopter assetts.
The year in year out cuts in Defence and wasteful spending are having their effects

[RonO]

I'm guessing it wasn't the way of the world for Falklands & isn't for other countries in theater... what sane system sends in troops with one arm tied behind their backs by artificially limiting already very limited air support. Barking doesnt even start to cover it.

Mind also still reeling at Des's claim that all elements of the original plan are behaving exactly as expected except the one element totally under brit control - the brit forces themselves. They're to blame for the need for re-enforcements by being too aggressive. No doubt their paychecks will be deducted accordingly.

Sure makes Flashman's pals look a whole lot smarter than they did last week.

[nigegilb]

Rono is this exerpt from Des's little speech what you are referring to?

"The original intent was to tackle the challenges incrementally, spreading security and reconstruction from the centre of Helmand out. But commanders on the ground grasped an early opportunity. They saw the chance to reinforce the position of the local Governor and the Afghan army and police by going into Northern Helmand, and challenging the impunity of the Taleban there. In doing this, we moved faster towards achieving our ultimate objectives, but extended ourselves. This is a development we must respond to. But it is our actions that have brought about this development, our decisions and our determination to grasp the challenge. It is not, as some suggest, a failure to anticipate a violent response to our arrival. Yes the violence has increased, but that was inevitable. We are challenging the power of the Taleban and other enemies of the Afghan government, and they are reacting. But despite their efforts, we are spreading security."

I take it the inevitable violence he refers to was not so inevitable when John Reid, his predecessor, stated that it might even be possible for our troops never to fire a shot in the 3 yr deployment.

[Melchett01]

....the brit forces themselves. They're to blame for the need for re-enforcements by being too aggressive

I really can't work out whether you are taking the p*ss here. So patrolling in floppy hats and berets and having a set of ROE that allow you to give the enemy a good stiff talking to is being overly aggressive?

Looking at your location, if that's what you really think, I suggest sir, that you may have been out in the sun too long or had one pina collada too many.