Aircraft needed in Afghanistan
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Interesting little article from therecord.com
http://www.therecord.com/NASApp/cs/C...=1024322596091
Nothing new but gets the point across.
http://www.therecord.com/NASApp/cs/C...=1024322596091
Nothing new but gets the point across.
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Just pointing out how absurd Des' explanation sounds - that the UK forces are a victim of their own success rather than any faulty pre-op planning. Like who would have thunk the taleban would resent the intrusion into their backyard and who would have thunk the para's would respond the way they have.
Didn't most commentators and the HCDC predict exactly that and fault the original force structure accordingly?
Being a cynical old fart, excuse me for suspecting the planning was based on what could be done for the money rather than what's needed to do the job. Folks can warble on as much as they like about prudent budgeting but that's not the best recipe for success in any project.
PS thanks for the offer, mine's a mai tai.
Didn't most commentators and the HCDC predict exactly that and fault the original force structure accordingly?
Being a cynical old fart, excuse me for suspecting the planning was based on what could be done for the money rather than what's needed to do the job. Folks can warble on as much as they like about prudent budgeting but that's not the best recipe for success in any project.
PS thanks for the offer, mine's a mai tai.
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Originally Posted by RonO
I'm guessing it wasn't the way of the world for Falklands & isn't for other countries in theater... what sane system sends in troops with one arm tied behind their backs by artificially limiting already very limited air support. Barking doesnt even start to cover it.
Mind also still reeling at Des's claim that all elements of the original plan are behaving exactly as expected except the one element totally under brit control - the brit forces themselves. They're to blame for the need for re-enforcements by being too aggressive. No doubt their paychecks will be deducted accordingly.
Sure makes Flashman's pals look a whole lot smarter than they did last week.
Mind also still reeling at Des's claim that all elements of the original plan are behaving exactly as expected except the one element totally under brit control - the brit forces themselves. They're to blame for the need for re-enforcements by being too aggressive. No doubt their paychecks will be deducted accordingly.
Sure makes Flashman's pals look a whole lot smarter than they did last week.
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Someone else described Des's explanation as ingenious, either way he did not seem to have much support from his own benches. Forgive me but the governors residence was almost overrun by Talibs on previous nights. The paras were probably the only people who could hold it. It is telling that the commander in the field requested reinforcements and Des could come up with very little. Talib strategy appears to be to target soldiers but also equipment. I wonder what attrition rate has been built in to this op. The comments by John Reid do not suggest that the planners were on their game. The above article suggests the end of the world will not be nigh if the Talibs reassert their influence. The dreadful slothlike reaction from our european nato allies suggests the same. What exactly was Blair thinking about when he ordered his chiefs to take on this committment at such a time?
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Both Reid and Browne have twisted reality to suit their version of events. The nastiness of the Taliban is not without precedent (it suited us in the 1980s) and there is no way that 900 infantry can fight and destroy many thousands of Taliban in an area the size of Scotland.
To be successful, battle groups need to take and hold ground and destroy the enemy's fighting power by seizing the initiative, dominating the battlefield, killing enemy fighters and denying them the ability to reinforce, reorganise or replenish.
This cannot be achieved by 900 soldiers who will turn up, fight (albeit with peerless ethos, tradition, training and courage...if not equipment) and go away again until the next time, perhaps somewhere else. We relinquished our ability to fight such wars in the 1990s.
To be successful, battle groups need to take and hold ground and destroy the enemy's fighting power by seizing the initiative, dominating the battlefield, killing enemy fighters and denying them the ability to reinforce, reorganise or replenish.
This cannot be achieved by 900 soldiers who will turn up, fight (albeit with peerless ethos, tradition, training and courage...if not equipment) and go away again until the next time, perhaps somewhere else. We relinquished our ability to fight such wars in the 1990s.
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Nige
Shooting from the hip a little as I haven't got facts to hand...
Think that this was always the plan, as a long-term commitment to the regeneration of Afghanistan. From memory these timetables were thrashed out as long ago as the Bonn summit. UK lead of this particular element (Phase 4?) has been set up from the start, so it shouldn't be a surprise to us.
Has the planning been properly conducted by ourselves (I mean very senior serving personnel) or is this a pig's ear because of politicos and MOD? I think the answer is both...This was always going to happen, SO1/SO2 planners have been screaming at various higher level agencies for ages. Sadly standard bul
it filtering means it's difficult to assess where the fault lies. Higher echelon command blames it on MOD, MOD blames it on lack of guidance from below. 'T was ever thus!
Another question. Is Task Force Butler helping the situation on the ground? Who knows...
Shooting from the hip a little as I haven't got facts to hand...
Think that this was always the plan, as a long-term commitment to the regeneration of Afghanistan. From memory these timetables were thrashed out as long ago as the Bonn summit. UK lead of this particular element (Phase 4?) has been set up from the start, so it shouldn't be a surprise to us.
Has the planning been properly conducted by ourselves (I mean very senior serving personnel) or is this a pig's ear because of politicos and MOD? I think the answer is both...This was always going to happen, SO1/SO2 planners have been screaming at various higher level agencies for ages. Sadly standard bul
it filtering means it's difficult to assess where the fault lies. Higher echelon command blames it on MOD, MOD blames it on lack of guidance from below. 'T was ever thus!Another question. Is Task Force Butler helping the situation on the ground? Who knows...
To get this thread slightly back to topic.....
The merits of the Hawk various have been debated and there is some merit, but surely what we need here is something that can operate from rough/poorly prepared surfaces, can sustain significant battle damage and still complete the misssion - so therefore probably twin engined, has significant firepower, capable of significant bomb load, a long loiter time/range at reasonable speed, quick reaction time, cheap and easy to repair if damaged...............................................
DH 98 FB VI anyone?
http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/gall...uitoiv1024.jpg 
The merits of the Hawk various have been debated and there is some merit, but surely what we need here is something that can operate from rough/poorly prepared surfaces, can sustain significant battle damage and still complete the misssion - so therefore probably twin engined, has significant firepower, capable of significant bomb load, a long loiter time/range at reasonable speed, quick reaction time, cheap and easy to repair if damaged...............................................
DH 98 FB VI anyone?
http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/gall...uitoiv1024.jpg
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If you need anything, you need the aircraft designed exactly for the theatre and the threat but with modern weapons and avionics - The SU-25KM Scorpion 
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What we actually need is for the MOD to be honest and make some decisions. The honesty and decisions would drive the need for more kit. All we have proved so far is that the Taliban like a good scrap and that they really aren't grabbed by the 'Blue Planet' series.
Last edited by Compressorstall; 15th Jul 2006 at 16:09.
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Originally Posted by Compressorstall
What we actually need is for the MOD to be honest and make some decisions.
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Well done to the crew:
A Dutch Apache helicopter made a precautionary landing in Afghanistan on Sunday (9 July?) after it was damaged by ground fire, the Ministry of Defence said on Friday.
The helicopter was fired on with a small calibre weapon and suffered damage to its hydraulic system and tail section. The two-man crew returned safely to the Dutch base at Tarin Kowt.
Dutch F-16 jets were called in on Wednesday to support troops who were attacked by suspected Taliban fighters at Musah Qa'leh in Helmand Province. The planes did not open fire but their presence helped end the confrontation, a ministry spokesperson said.
A Dutch Apache helicopter made a precautionary landing in Afghanistan on Sunday (9 July?) after it was damaged by ground fire, the Ministry of Defence said on Friday.
The helicopter was fired on with a small calibre weapon and suffered damage to its hydraulic system and tail section. The two-man crew returned safely to the Dutch base at Tarin Kowt.
Dutch F-16 jets were called in on Wednesday to support troops who were attacked by suspected Taliban fighters at Musah Qa'leh in Helmand Province. The planes did not open fire but their presence helped end the confrontation, a ministry spokesperson said.
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Forget Afghanistan................. With lots of people getting upset this weekend we should start a new thread called Aircraft needed in Fairford We could start it by saying...........................
High ranking British spotters in Fairford say they need more air power to assist spotters and airshow goers, who are facing a lack of tail numbers to collect and photograph for the 100th time.
The calls come after a day of intense clashes on pprune in the southern province of England.
Sources have told the BBC that more transport and attack helicopters and sentinal planes are needed.
The British public has about 100,000 spotters at Fairford. They are part of a UK Airshow led taskforce.
High ranking British spotters in Fairford say they need more air power to assist spotters and airshow goers, who are facing a lack of tail numbers to collect and photograph for the 100th time.
The calls come after a day of intense clashes on pprune in the southern province of England.
Sources have told the BBC that more transport and attack helicopters and sentinal planes are needed.
The British public has about 100,000 spotters at Fairford. They are part of a UK Airshow led taskforce.
Red On, Green On
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HRH the PoW told the DefSec six months ago about the lack of air support in Afghanistan, according to this article in the Telegraph.
He's not so silly, then.
He's not so silly, then.
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seems we now have a new "explanation" for the rationed flying hours:
"...The shortage of helicopters is exacerbated by a need for them to undergo regular maintenance to remain airworthy. As a consequence, commanders in Afghanistan have decided to limit the use of helicopters for "deliberate operations".
Ah, so not a Treasury imposed limit to save a few pennies after all
"...The shortage of helicopters is exacerbated by a need for them to undergo regular maintenance to remain airworthy. As a consequence, commanders in Afghanistan have decided to limit the use of helicopters for "deliberate operations".
Ah, so not a Treasury imposed limit to save a few pennies after all
