Future Carrier (Including Costs)

[Asturias56]

Agreed - it's something EVERY Govt has put off because it's expensive, and it might cost them votes. Everyone knows it can only realistically be at Sellafield - or maybe in salt mine in Cheshire or N Yorks. perhaps.

I'm sure the RN would love to get shot of those old hulks - they take up space, they have to be protected and even kept in some state of repair so that Plymouth & half of C Scotland aren't turned into a wasteland. All of which costs money for absolutely no return.

It really is crazy.........

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

I'm sure the RN would love to get shot of those old hulks - they take up space, they have to be protected and even kept in some state of repair so that Plymouth & half of C Scotland aren't turned into a wasteland.

Arguably Plymouth and Central Scotland are wastelands anyway. .....

In fact, the boats are perfectly safe and something would have to go catastrophically awry to generate the scenario you describe. That's the sort of narrative the SNP like to push.

[Asturias56]

"Arguably Plymouth and Central Scotland are wastelands anyway. ....." I was sorely temped to add a remark like that but........

Problem is things occasionally do go horribly awry - and the Navy would no doubt be unfairly blamed. The Govt seems to estimate a disposal facility would cost £ 54 Bn - God knows how - google brought up a recent interesting article by someone who's been involved

https://geoscientist.online/sections...geology-first/

he seems to think the Govt. is kicking things down the road.....................

[Frostchamber]

Norway has just confirmed that it will be acquiring Type 26 frigates.

[SLXOwft]

Originally Posted by Frostchamber

Norway has just confirmed that it will be acquiring Type 26 frigates.

Here is the English text of the press release.

Norway will acquire British frigates

Press release | Date: 31/08/2025

The Norwegian Government has selected the United Kingdom as a strategic partner for the acquisition of new frigates. The purchase of British frigates will be the largest Norwegian defence capability investment to date.

Official translation will follow

‘Norway and the United Kingdom are close allies, with common interests and strong bilateral ties. I am confident that the strategic partnership with the UK for purchasing, developing and operating frigates is the right decision. This partnership enables Norway to reach the strategic objectives our Parliament set out in the current Long-Term Plan on Defence,’ said Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre.

In connection with the Norwegian defence pledge, the Parliament decided that Norway should select a strategic partner for the acquisition of new frigates, as quickly as possible. This is now being followed up by the Norwegian Government. The Storting has been consulted through the expanded Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence. Delivery of the British Type-26 frigates to Norway will start in 2030.

‘Selecting the United Kingdom as a strategic partner for frigates was also recommended by the Chief of Defence. The choice represents a historic strengthening of the defence cooperation between our two countries,’ said Støre.

Since November last year, Norwegian authorities have considered France, Germany, USA and UK as a strategic partner on frigates.

‘It has been a difficult choice. The four candidates, France, Germany, USA and the UK, have provided strong and competitive proposals. They are all close allies, and I wish to express my appreciation for a constructive process and dialogue. All four allies are strategic partners for Norway. The extensive cooperation on security and defence policy will continue at full strength with all of them,’ said Støre.

A stronger strategic partnership

A long-term, strategic partnership on frigates requires deepened and strengthened cooperation in the time to come.

‘Together we will acquire frigates to the British Royal Navy and the Royal Norwegian Navy. We will operate and develop the frigates for the coming decades. This will strengthen our and NATO’s ability to patrol and protect the maritime areas in the High North. This is of great importance to Norwegian, British and allied security in these times of global instability,’ said Støre.

Norway and the United Kingdom have long lasting, close ties. After having operated British vessels during World War II, the post war navy was largely built on British doctrines, tactics and operational concepts.

‘We have strong shared interests in the North Atlantic. Our Armed Forces maintains a close cooperation, and with a joint frigate program, we will be able to operate seamlessly and integrated in our joint areas of interest,’ said Defence Minister Tore O. Sandvik.

Extensive industrial cooperation

The strategic partnership with the United Kingdom will be accompanied by extensive industrial cooperation. In the draft agreement the United Kingdom has guaranteed for industrial cooperation with Norwegian industry equivalent to the total value of the acquisition.

‘This is positive for Norwegian industry and Norwegian jobs. The industry will play a vital role especially in maintaining and keeping the vessels up to date. We have identified a wide range of industrial and technological areas of cooperation where Norwegian industry can compete for contracts,’ says Støre.

Ships for anti-submarine operations

The British Type 26 frigates are warships specifically designed to detect, track down and combat submarines. The Norwegian and British vessels will be as identical as possible, and have the same technical specifications.

‘Having identical vessels will enable us to operate even more efficiently together on challenging missions. It will also reduce costs and make joint maintenance easier. Additionally, it opens up the possibility for us to perform joint training of personnel, and perhaps even use Norwegian and British crew interchangeably. This is something we will look into further within the framework of the strategic partnership,’ said Sandvik.

The Norwegian frigates will be equipped with anti-submarine capable helicopters. A decision on what type of helicopter the Norwegian frigates will be operating has not yet been made.

‘The Norwegian frigates will be equipped with helicopters with anti-submarine capability. At the same time, it is important that we consider the rapid technological developments, and explore the possibilities for utilizing unmanned platforms. This is something we will look further into together with British partners,’ said Sandvik.

Separate government agreement

The Norwegian and British governments will soon finalize a binding agreement which sets the framework for the strategic partnership. Once the agreement is signed, the two parties will enter into contract negotiations with the main British supplier, BAE Systems.

In parallel, Norwegian and British authorities will negotiate separate industrial cooperation agreements for various collaborative projects with relevant industrial partners.

‘Our first goal is to finalize the Government agreement shortly. Then we will move into contract negotiations. We will negotiate, among other things, the price and delivery schedule for the vessels, before returning to the Parliament with an investment decision,’ said Sandvik.

Source:https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuel...tes/id3117431/

[Asturias56]

Makes sense - the T26's are starting to look like an export success - it's been a long wait but very welcome nevertheless.

[SLXOwft]

I forgot to mention that the work on Devonport's 14 Dock appears to be going to be completed in time for the commencement of defuelling of the first T-boat in 2026 under a contract Babcock announced in June. Various facilities in 14 dock passed their inactive commissioning regulatory inspection at the end of last year.

It is slightly confusing that they are starting with the Ts not the 5 Ss that are also in the basin. There are also 4 older boats which are defuelled, but awaiting dismantling.

[petit plateau]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

Here is the English text of the press release.

Source:https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuel...tes/id3117431/

UK = 3 batch 1 ordered, 5 batch 2 ordered (Nov 2022), 8 planned (originally 13 desired, balance to be filled by type 31) as Type 26
Australia = 3 ordered, 6 now planned (originally 9 desired) as Hunter Class
Canada = 3 ordered (15 desired) as River Class
Norway = selected, not yet ordered, (5-6 desired) as Type 26

[SASless]

he seems to think the Govt. is kicking things down the road.....................

Golly Gee Whiz....who would think Guvmint would ever do such a thing?

Screw things up bigly but ensure the repercussions occur after one's own Retirement and Gongs are obtained leaving the mess for the new guys to deal with.

[Davef68]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

It is slightly confusing that they are starting with the Ts not the 5 Ss that are also in the basin. There are also 4 older boats which are defuelled, but awaiting dismantling.

Swiftsure is being dismantled at Rosyth, they removed the fin earlier in the year. Planned to be completely dismantled by 2026. Presumably the hot fizzy bit will be transported to Sellafield as part of that

[Flap Track 6]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

It is slightly confusing that they are starting with the Ts not the 5 Ss that are also in the basin. There are also 4 older boats which are defuelled, but awaiting dismantling.

I think it's because the T boats haven't been defuelled yet so they get done first.

[Flap Track 6]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

Here is the English text of the press release.
Source:https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuel...tes/id3117431/

There have been a number of different proposals on this over the last few months. One of which was joint manning with alternating British and Norwegian crews (similar to port/starboard crews on a bomber SSBN) while the fleet was being built up.
I believe that the current idea is the Norwegians get boat 4 and then alternate UK/NOR deliveries from then on, but the details remain to be formalised.
I hope the Norwegians get their support facilities upgraded in time to support EIS - T26 is a big ship.

[SLXOwft]

Originally Posted by Flap Track 6

I think it's because the T boats haven't been defuelled yet so they get done first.

My understanding is only Swiftsure of her class has been defuelled (at Rosyth), Splendid was the next to decommission, in 2004, which was the year defuelling was suspended.

[Asturias56]

Top billing on the BBC News website

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr5rgdpvn63o

[SLXOwft]

Norwegian shipyard Umoe Mandal is contracted to deliver composite structures for the 8 UK T26s.

"Under the award, the Norwegian company will build and deliver the mast structure, including sponsons, doors, hatches and internal outfitting, as well as bulwarks and life raft platforms."

source: https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/n...omposite-work/

It does lead me to wonder if, as part of the final agreements - governmental and commercial, other modules for the Norwegian ships (or UK replacement ones if Norway gets ones already under construction) will be contracted from Norwegian yards.

[SLXOwft]

I thought it was time to reintroduce some aviation content

The Norwegian frigates will be equipped with anti-submarine capable helicopters. A decision on what type of helicopter the Norwegian frigates will be operating has not yet been made.

‘The Norwegian frigates will be equipped with helicopters with anti-submarine capability. At the same time, it is important that we consider the rapid technological developments, and explore the possibilities for utilizing unmanned platforms. This is something we will look further into together with British partners,’ said Sandvik.

This is going to be interesting, Luftforsvaret took delivery of its final AW101 (aka SAR Queen) in June but these are utility/SAR not ASW aircraft, it has ordered six MH-60Rs "Initially, the helicopters will be used by the Norwegian Coast Guard, but they will also be prepared for equipment for anti-submarine operations." (https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuel...tre/id2966519/). As we know the planned OSD for Merlin HM2 is being extended to 2040. If pushed, my money is on more MH-60s. However, if there is to effectively be a combined Norwegian/UK T26 fleet surely a common ASW RW platform makes more sense? If the extra defence funding actually materialises should the UK be looking at early replacement of Merlin HM2, potentially optionally crewed or uncrewed and using these on all its T26s rather than a Wildcat/Merlin mix. My understanding is the OSD for Wildcat HMA is 2045 following a mid-2030s MLU.

[Frostchamber]

It would also make sense, as part of the offsets associated with the agreement, for the UK to buy additional NSM and launchers to fit to the RN T26s - not least in the interests of maintaining full commonality, and helped by the fact that they're being integrated anyway. And also because the RN may have nothing to put in the Mk41 VLS modules for a while after vessels' entry into service...

[SLXOwft]

Frostchamber, I was thinking the same - the BAES T26 for Sjøforsvaret model shown at the Undersea Defence Technology 2025 Conference in Oslo this year, mounted 16 NSM launchers (4x quadruple). Although with the heavierweight, supersonic, highly manouverable MBDA RJ10 being slated for an ISD of 2028 - a tad optimisitic methinks - with that and its the subsonic land attack, TP15, version having an ISD of 2030 acquiring three ASuW missiles for UK T26 might be gilding the lily. It might make sense to migrate the exiting NSM sets from T23 to T31 and if it materializes T32.

[Frostchamber]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

Frostchamber, I was thinking the same - the BAES T26 for Sjøforsvaret model shown at the Undersea Defence Technology 2025 Conference in Oslo this year, mounted 16 NSM launchers (4x quadruple). Although with the heavierweight, supersonic, highly manouverable MBDA RJ10 being slated for an ISD of 2028 - a tad optimisitic methinks - with that and its the subsonic land attack, TP15, version having an ISD of 2030 acquiring three ASuW missiles for UK T26 might be gilding the lily. It might make sense to migrate the exiting NSM sets from T23 to T31 and if it materializes T32.

IF those ISDs hold good then fine - but as you say, they sound a tad optimistic. In which case the most likely scenario, on past UK form, is that the ships simply spend the first 3 - 4 years of their lives sailing round with nothing in the tubes. ISTR that Sampson and Sea Viper were not fully operable on T45 for at least a couple of years from 2010 (but as ever, happy to stand corrected).

[ORAC]

https://www.navylookout.com/first-se...ransformation/

First Sea Lord sets very ambitious targets for Royal Navy transformation

The new First Sea Lord, General Gwyn Jenkins, used his opening address at DSEI 2025 to set out an uncompromising plan to move the Royal Navy to full war-fighting readiness within four years. He stressed that the era of incremental change is over and that taut delivery timelines must drive every programme from now on.…..

The vision is the creation of a hybrid fleet of crewed, uncrewed and autonomous systems, digitally connected but widely dispersed. These kinds of concepts have been around for a decade or so, but Jenkins seems to be genuinely pushing harder for a force that will be “uncrewed wherever possible, crewed only where necessary”, a strategic shift designed to generate mass at scale without waiting for traditional, long-cycle warship builds.

Speaking about the Type 26 frigate, he said: “It is the most advanced anti-submarine frigate in the world, a truly world-leading ship with a highly trained and most effective crew. But it will not be alone. It is sailing in company with two uncrewed escorts who are using AI to work in tandem with the warship. Together, they provide a three-ship task group in their own right. The escorts will protect the parent ship, adding to its sensors, weapons, and decoy capabilities. Because they have no crew, the escorts are not complex vessels. They are easy to produce at scale, and even easier to configure to specific mission requirements as the task demands. If this sounds fanciful, it is not. It is my aim to have the first of our uncrewed escort ships sailing alongside our Royal Navy warships within the next two years.”

In the air, the carrier air wing is promised to be transformed before the decade ends into a fusion of crewed and uncrewed platforms. The first step will be the launch of a “jet-powered collaborative drone” demonstrator from a Queen Elizabeth-class carrier as soon as 2026. He did not elaborate on which aircraft this might be and the implications for launch and recovery. Achieving this would mark the UK out as a NATO leader in maritime uncrewed aviation.

The underwater environment is also to be reshaped by the ‘Atlantic Bastion’, a new concept aimed at building a defensive shield stretching from the mid-Atlantic to the Norwegian Sea. A network of crewed and uncrewed systems will be able to find, track and, if needed, attack hostile submarines, multiplying the effect of existing boats, ships and aircraft. The first sensors as part of Project CABOT for this system are expected to be in the water within a year.

Partnership with Norway will deepen further. The UK has not just sold 5 frigates to Norway but will create a joint interoperable “13-frigate force” to patrol the High North and Atlantic. Norwegian sailors will be aboard HMS Glasgow when she first puts to sea and Norway may also join the Atlantic Bastion construct…….

Delivering these capabilities on time will require a parallel cultural transformation. The First Sea Lord confirmed that within 100 days, new leadership assessment tools will be trialled across the service, ensuring that those who inspire, motivate and deliver outcomes are promoted quickly. Training is also to be overhauled to equip sailors and marines with the skills needed for modern maritime warfare.

The message to industry was urgency. The General was emphatic that this is not a distant aspiration but a programme already underway and dependent on close collaboration with industry. Innovation, speed and agility are to be the watchwords, with the Navy seeking to simplify processes and remove barriers that have slowed progress in the past. Industry, large and small, has been offering solutions to many of these requirements for some years but has often been frustrated by bureaucracy, endless rounds of ‘market engagement’ and a lack of firm commitment or funding to convert aspiration into reality…….