Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Portsmouth
The BAES team in Portsmouth are all tearing their hair out because of the amount of STORobing - and consequent effort - required to keep the active fleet available. Logistics, logistics, logistics. Largely all RDEL, or lack thereof.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
https://www.navylookout.com/bmt-anno...s-requirement/
BMT announces Ellida Strike concept to align with Royal Navy MRSS requirement
Ahead of DSEI 2025, BMT have unveiled the Ellida Strike concept, the boldest evolution yet in BMT’s family of amphibious ship designs. Developed as an option to inform the recapitalisation of the RN’s amphibious fleet, it presents a vision of what a future Multi-Role Strike Ship could deliver in both combat and humanitarian operations.…..
At 213m in length, 35m in beam, a 7m draught and displacing around 29,500 tonnes, ES is significantly larger than the legacy Albion class LPDs. The scale reflects both the RN’s complex outline requirements together with weight, space and power margins to support upgrades to sustain the vessel in service into the 2060s.
A key theme of the Ellida Strike design is that it is conceived as a warship rather than an auxiliary. The ship is intended to operate at the high end of conflict as well as in benign environments, with the resilience and survivability expected of a combatant.
It is envisaged that the ship would be equipped with self-defence weapons in the form of 2 x Bofors 40mm Mk 4 cannons, 2 x DragonFire-type LDEW mounts and 2 x Ancilia airborne decoy launchers.
More unusually for an amphibious vessel, the ship will have an integrated mast with an advanced radar fit and a combat system. Ellida Strike could also serve as a distributed effector within the RN’s Future Air Dominance System (FADS) architecture.
Capable of launching its missiles cued from external platforms or operating independently providing air defence for smaller task groups. Although cost and customer appetite will define the weapon fit and number of cells, the design has capacity for multiple strike-length Mk 41 VLS……
The ship features a hangar that can accommodate up to 4 Merlin-sized helicopters or a mix of UAVs. The flight deck is large enough to land two CH-47 Chinooks – a very substantial aviation capability upgrade over the Albion-class LPDs.…
Where Albion required more than 300 personnel, ES aspires to operate with a core crew of around 100, leveraging advanced platform management systems, automated firefighting and connected monitoring technology.
People are at the heart of the ES design, and although the ship’s company is small, there is full accommodation in bunks for 700 people. This includes the Embarked Military Force, the command staff, air group personnel, medical teams and miscellaneous other augmentees.
The EMF is designed to include 250 troops that could land ashore plus their support personnel. 350 marines could be carried in overload condition for short periods in austere accommodation.…..
BMT announces Ellida Strike concept to align with Royal Navy MRSS requirement
Ahead of DSEI 2025, BMT have unveiled the Ellida Strike concept, the boldest evolution yet in BMT’s family of amphibious ship designs. Developed as an option to inform the recapitalisation of the RN’s amphibious fleet, it presents a vision of what a future Multi-Role Strike Ship could deliver in both combat and humanitarian operations.…..
At 213m in length, 35m in beam, a 7m draught and displacing around 29,500 tonnes, ES is significantly larger than the legacy Albion class LPDs. The scale reflects both the RN’s complex outline requirements together with weight, space and power margins to support upgrades to sustain the vessel in service into the 2060s.
A key theme of the Ellida Strike design is that it is conceived as a warship rather than an auxiliary. The ship is intended to operate at the high end of conflict as well as in benign environments, with the resilience and survivability expected of a combatant.
It is envisaged that the ship would be equipped with self-defence weapons in the form of 2 x Bofors 40mm Mk 4 cannons, 2 x DragonFire-type LDEW mounts and 2 x Ancilia airborne decoy launchers.
More unusually for an amphibious vessel, the ship will have an integrated mast with an advanced radar fit and a combat system. Ellida Strike could also serve as a distributed effector within the RN’s Future Air Dominance System (FADS) architecture.
Capable of launching its missiles cued from external platforms or operating independently providing air defence for smaller task groups. Although cost and customer appetite will define the weapon fit and number of cells, the design has capacity for multiple strike-length Mk 41 VLS……
The ship features a hangar that can accommodate up to 4 Merlin-sized helicopters or a mix of UAVs. The flight deck is large enough to land two CH-47 Chinooks – a very substantial aviation capability upgrade over the Albion-class LPDs.…
Where Albion required more than 300 personnel, ES aspires to operate with a core crew of around 100, leveraging advanced platform management systems, automated firefighting and connected monitoring technology.
People are at the heart of the ES design, and although the ship’s company is small, there is full accommodation in bunks for 700 people. This includes the Embarked Military Force, the command staff, air group personnel, medical teams and miscellaneous other augmentees.
The EMF is designed to include 250 troops that could land ashore plus their support personnel. 350 marines could be carried in overload condition for short periods in austere accommodation.…..
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Oil Capital of Central Scotland
Where Albion required more than 300 personnel, ES aspires to operate with a core crew of around 100, leveraging advanced platform management systems, automated firefighting and connected monitoring technology.
Having a slack handful [at best] of the latest gucci whizz-bang kit that is increasing in complexity at an exponential rate is great until something goes wrong or the power goes out then at best you are left with an incredibly expnsive anchor or trip-hazard. At least with a large number of Matelot/Marine/Squaddie or Brylcreem Model Mark 1 on hand they can throw rocks at at the opposition or do any other number of generally useful things. Humans are infinitely more flexible and ultimately more cost-effective than the toys we're wasting squillions on.
As Asturias56 alludes to, before we do anything else, we need to have more bodies available. It might be a scandalous and frightening concept, but maybe if we had a bigger number in the armed forces, if anyone was spare they could collectively be used to improve the national infrastructure as well and save HMG some of our hard earned taxes.
EndRant.
Joined: May 2009
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From: Here
On that note, I note this report that no RN SSNs are at sea, and only one seems to be operational. There was a suggestion that Astute was supposed to accompany CG25, but returned early (Reported in a local Plymouth newspaper) . Audacious still in refit, Astute alongside awaiting refit, Artful and Ambush seem to have been alongside at Faslane for years (manpower? Spares Christmas trees?)
https://www.navylookout.com/hms-anso...arines-at-sea/
https://www.navylookout.com/hms-anso...arines-at-sea/
Last edited by Davef68; 26th August 2025 at 13:29.
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From: Ferrara
"There was a suggestion that Astute was supposed to accompany CG25, but returned early"
Operating a CDG without an SSN? Interesting................ better not tell the PLA (N)
Operating a CDG without an SSN? Interesting................ better not tell the PLA (N)
Joined: Apr 2020
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From: Hampshire
Given the area CSG 25 is operating and frequency of interaction with USN surface groups, it is possible/probable that one or more USN SSNs are always close by CSG 25, if not part of what is a multinational force by design. I assume Astute's return on 30 June prior to her MLRP was planned long since, and the arrival of Anson just after Astute decommissioned probably wasn't coincidental.
As I said in April an SSN being deployed away from (what to this old git is still) EASTLANT waters for a long time was my one capability concern in connection with Op Highmast. I am also concerned effects of having one operational SSN from a fleet of 5 will have on crew currency and retention but nil desperandum to borrow a phrase.
Joined: May 2007
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From: South Glos
HMS Astute did operate with the CSG when it was in the Mediterranean. Afterwards, she called into Gibraltar to offload weapons before heading into refit.
This is an allied CSG so expect SSN & SSK support from friendly navies in the area. USS Missouri visited Yokohama recently - coincidence?
This is an allied CSG so expect SSN & SSK support from friendly navies in the area. USS Missouri visited Yokohama recently - coincidence?
Joined: May 2007
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From: South Glos
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: The Roman Empire
Interesting article today in the Daily Telegraph by Tom Sharpe (ex RN frigate Captain) - entitled "It's time to be honest with ourselves. The Royal Navy is broken".
No doubt someone with access can provide a non paywall link, or cut and paste the article.
No doubt someone with access can provide a non paywall link, or cut and paste the article.
Last edited by Biggus; 29th August 2025 at 07:28.
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From: Australia
Article here in the Tele:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...-navy-is-brok/
Archived copy here:
https://archive.md/G7Ski
It’s time to be honest with ourselves. The Royal Navy is broken
The Senior Service is being asked to do too much with too little. Something has to give
The reason I’m certain that in the case of SSNs we are not making our operational commitments is that we have a hundred thousand tons of Carrier Strike Group on the other side of the world just now with no British submarine in attendance. This is a fail.
The planning assumptions around strike group deployments determine what escorts the carrier should have at any given time, and these will vary depending on where the carrier is. In the North Atlantic, it might be escorted by just one frigate. In the Red Sea, it will be everything we have plus some US destroyers, please.
In the Indo-Pacific I guarantee the SSN would be on the list for pretty obvious reasons, but it’s not there. And it’s not that one has been detached to work with someone else nearby at, say, three days’ notice to scuttle back. Nope, of the five we have, just one is working, and that one is back in the UK. This is not meeting either the doctrine or the operational requirements. And forget the strike group – who is doing SSN tasking around Britain now?
SSN availability is not the only nuclear-related issue we have. Our deterrent submarines are old and their replacements are very late. This and a maintenance backlog means their crews are increasingly being asked to conduct six-month patrols. That’s six months in a steel tube, at depth, with no view and no contact home, creeping around to remain undetected and waiting for the signal they hope never comes. When the previous class of “bomber” – the R boats – were getting long in the tooth, they ran the odd patrol over three and a half months, and that was deemed “unacceptable and must never be repeated”. But here we are adding 50 days to this. Talk to any accident investigator, and they will tell you that “normalising exceptional” is a fast track to disaster.
/continues...
The Senior Service is being asked to do too much with too little. Something has to give
Crew of HMS Prince of Wales (R09) at Tokyo International Cruise Terminal, Aug 28 Credit: RODRIGO MARIN/EPA/Shutterstock/Shutterstock Editorial
The reason I’m certain that in the case of SSNs we are not making our operational commitments is that we have a hundred thousand tons of Carrier Strike Group on the other side of the world just now with no British submarine in attendance. This is a fail.
The planning assumptions around strike group deployments determine what escorts the carrier should have at any given time, and these will vary depending on where the carrier is. In the North Atlantic, it might be escorted by just one frigate. In the Red Sea, it will be everything we have plus some US destroyers, please.
In the Indo-Pacific I guarantee the SSN would be on the list for pretty obvious reasons, but it’s not there. And it’s not that one has been detached to work with someone else nearby at, say, three days’ notice to scuttle back. Nope, of the five we have, just one is working, and that one is back in the UK. This is not meeting either the doctrine or the operational requirements. And forget the strike group – who is doing SSN tasking around Britain now?
SSN availability is not the only nuclear-related issue we have. Our deterrent submarines are old and their replacements are very late. This and a maintenance backlog means their crews are increasingly being asked to conduct six-month patrols. That’s six months in a steel tube, at depth, with no view and no contact home, creeping around to remain undetected and waiting for the signal they hope never comes. When the previous class of “bomber” – the R boats – were getting long in the tooth, they ran the odd patrol over three and a half months, and that was deemed “unacceptable and must never be repeated”. But here we are adding 50 days to this. Talk to any accident investigator, and they will tell you that “normalising exceptional” is a fast track to disaster.
/continues...
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
"What struck me was the Pavlovian MoD response, “we continue to meet all our operational tasking”. This upsets me a lot."
What are they supposed to do ? tell the truth?? Underinvested, over promised, not a priority for money, people or political attention. Lot of chickens waiting to come home to roost.
What are they supposed to do ? tell the truth?? Underinvested, over promised, not a priority for money, people or political attention. Lot of chickens waiting to come home to roost.
Joined: May 2009
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From: Here
HMS Astute did operate with the CSG when it was in the Mediterranean. Afterwards, she called into Gibraltar to offload weapons before heading into refit.
This is an allied CSG so expect SSN & SSK support from friendly navies in the area. USS Missouri visited Yokohama recently - coincidence?
This is an allied CSG so expect SSN & SSK support from friendly navies in the area. USS Missouri visited Yokohama recently - coincidence?
It's probably no coincidence French and US SSNs have been regular visitors to Faslane in recent years
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From: Ferrara
IIRC when Fisher proposed building the original "Dreadnaught" one of the objections was that it would mean we'd have to build new drydocks to take her and her successors.
He pointed out that wars are not fought by dry-docks. (and Tirpitz said the same thing about rebuilding the Kiel Canal).
How much would it cost to build another one capable of handling the Astutes?? There's clearly a desperate need.
He pointed out that wars are not fought by dry-docks. (and Tirpitz said the same thing about rebuilding the Kiel Canal).
How much would it cost to build another one capable of handling the Astutes?? There's clearly a desperate need.
Joined: Apr 2020
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From: Hampshire
There will soon be three drydocks for SSNs/SSBNs in Devonport. 10 dock is scheduled to be available from 2027, I believe, and will be usable for both As and Vs, 15 dock had to be upgraded after the last T before Audacious could dock for a BMP, there was a delay as the workforce was concentrated on 9 dock as getting that ready for Victorious unsurprisingly had higher priority - necessary due to problems in Faslane. Given the delays in the past 2028 may be more realistic.
Joined: Apr 2020
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From: Hampshire
The Devonport drydock situation is a farce long in the making and applies to the surface fleet as well; having Three basin out of use until the 2040s due to the SSN mortuary doen't help. Where the loci of blame are spread across MOD, HMT, Babcock and governments past and present I cannot say.
The loading and unloading at Gib presumably included the UUV for the trials reported here https://www.navylookout.com/hms-astu...-torpedo-tube/
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From: Ferrara
And of course one of he reasons they can't/don't won't scrap all the old SSn's is because they've been stalling a deep, safe repository for the hot bits at Sellafield for about 25 years.....................
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Portsmouth
Let's be clear about who "they" are shall we? It ain't the RN and ithe national deep repository has been a thing for nigh-on 40 years.