Future Carrier (Including Costs)
In the second link there are a number of readers comments, the sixth of which refers to family connections in the management of Portsmouth Dockyard and the difficulty they have with lazy workers, the writer then says that due to these family connections his comment must be anonymous and signs himself James Morgan.
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The Gordon Brown factor
Just a thought, but HMS Caledonia (Rosyth) never really did shut - although we did all expect it to.
And there's a wee Scottish chappie with big ideas on his next job who also happens to be the local MP, methinks.
And Leuchars is far too far away to offload the jets.
And the North Sea is much more crowded for air space and training than the south of England, no?
And Rosyth is plenty deep enough - no, couldn't ever happen.
And there's a wee Scottish chappie with big ideas on his next job who also happens to be the local MP, methinks.
And Leuchars is far too far away to offload the jets.
And the North Sea is much more crowded for air space and training than the south of England, no?
And Rosyth is plenty deep enough - no, couldn't ever happen.
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The Gordon Brown factor
Just a thought, but HMS Caledonia (Rosyth) never really did shut - although we did all expect it to. And Rosyth is plenty deep enough too.
And there's a wee Scottish chappie with big ideas on his next job who also happens to be the local MP, methinks.
And Leuchars is far too far away to offload the aircraft.
And the North Sea is much more crowded for air space and training than the south of England.
- no, couldn't ever happen.
And there's a wee Scottish chappie with big ideas on his next job who also happens to be the local MP, methinks.
And Leuchars is far too far away to offload the aircraft.
And the North Sea is much more crowded for air space and training than the south of England.
- no, couldn't ever happen.
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Why go for Rosyth? If we're talking about Falmouth (WHY for god's sake) and Naval Bases that have had there day? then hell, Why not INVERGORDON? After all DAVE B (or if we're lucky C) is going to be based 37 miles east of thereabouts,Tain ranges to the north. Politically favourable too!
...Sorry just polished off a litre of Cheap Italian Wine ( "vino dell'azzurro di Esso" I think
) and I think I've gone into "talking Bollocks" mode - Mind you, at least I have an excuse 
...Sorry just polished off a litre of Cheap Italian Wine ( "vino dell'azzurro di Esso" I think
) and I think I've gone into "talking Bollocks" mode - Mind you, at least I have an excuse
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Portland would surely be ideal basing for the carriers, being in close proximity to Yeovilton and in the midst of much training and FOST areas.
Base the carriers there and establish the JSF air wings at Yeovilton.
Move JFH from Cottesmore down to Yeovilton too.
Portland is handy for helo transits from Culdrose to the carriers. (Oh - and there's the old RNAS portland there for the helo's to play on isn't there?)
With FAA fixed wing assets based at Yeovilton... Add the Future Lynx's to the Merlins already at Culdrose and there's the 'helicopter superbase' that seems to be flavour of the month.
Sorted!.
Cheers,
TS
Fly Navy
Base the carriers there and establish the JSF air wings at Yeovilton.
Move JFH from Cottesmore down to Yeovilton too.
Portland is handy for helo transits from Culdrose to the carriers. (Oh - and there's the old RNAS portland there for the helo's to play on isn't there?)
With FAA fixed wing assets based at Yeovilton... Add the Future Lynx's to the Merlins already at Culdrose and there's the 'helicopter superbase' that seems to be flavour of the month.
Sorted!.
Cheers,
TS
Fly Navy
Gents
The location of the carriers home base need not have anything to do with where it's aircraft are based. As many of you know most aircraft are capable of speeds in excess of 25 kts and can move quite large distances in a short space of time!
The location of the carriers home base need not have anything to do with where it's aircraft are based. As many of you know
most aircraft are capable of speeds in excess of 25 kts and can move quite large distances in a short space of time!
Suspicion breeds confidence
Tequila,
Portland does indeed have an excellent deepwater harbour. It was primarily used for FOST until its closure. but would need a huge investment in infrastructure to support a large carrier. It won't happen because the govt won't spend the money. CVF will not get in to Devonport in a month of Sundays.
Portland does indeed have an excellent deepwater harbour. It was primarily used for FOST until its closure. but would need a huge investment in infrastructure to support a large carrier. It won't happen because the govt won't spend the money. CVF will not get in to Devonport in a month of Sundays.
Last edited by Navaleye; 3rd Oct 2006 at 10:47.
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Gentlemen, please remember that an operational Naval Base is rather more than a parking slot. Big ships need POL and lots of stores. So the chosen Base will need the necessary infrastructure. I somehow can't see new money being found to build or buy back the handling areas, storehouses and transport facilities at former Bases. Where you park the ships' fast and highly mobile gunnery system is not really an issue. How many minutes from Lossie to Hebrides/Malin?
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Read a good book that mentioned navigating into Faslane. Apparently it is a tadge tricky. Beautiful scenery, stunning wardroom but TTF I was not based there.
Here's a little tip. Large quantities of high explosive (insensitive or not), plus small glowing tea kettles berthed adjacent, do not good berthing plans and safety cases make...........
Anyone who's worked in the QHM at Guzz would be able to tell you that.
Anyone who's worked in the QHM at Guzz would be able to tell you that.
I don't detect any real wavering re Dave B on the UK side. But I made some critical references to it at a public forum the other day and nearly got lynched by the attending USMC. Nervousness?
It's not really BWoS either. STOVL is really pretty irrelevant to their workshare - the biggest single piece of which is not even in the UK - although it's exercising some unique R&D people and facilities. It does make a difference to RR, but not as much as the alternate engine does - after all, there won't be many more than 400 Dave Bs.
It's not really BWoS either. STOVL is really pretty irrelevant to their workshare - the biggest single piece of which is not even in the UK - although it's exercising some unique R&D people and facilities. It does make a difference to RR, but not as much as the alternate engine does - after all, there won't be many more than 400 Dave Bs.
LO,
I was just reading an old post of yours.
You said that "Under the current schedule, too, the A and the C hit IOC around the same time (2Q13), which is ahead of what seems to be the UK IOC (3Q14). The main difference between the Marine, USAF/USN and UK timings would appear to be related to the three blocks of SDD capability:
Block 1 – Initial Warfighting Capability
Flight qualified, baseline air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons qualified. Pilot and maintenance training can commence. USMC declares IOC at this point.
Block 2 – Close Air Support and Interdiction
Qualifies additional air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. Services can start planning deployments and staffing operational units. USN/USAF declare IOC once this Block completes OT&E.
Block 3 – Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
Qualifies additional a/a & a/g weapons for use. Service Initial
Operational Capabilities are achievable. This is the RAF/RN entry into service standard."
Can you clarify? Do all Block 1s (A, C) come on stream at the same time, and all Block 2s, and then all Block 3s?
You also said that "Meanwhile, if I was the ruler of the Queen's Navee I would be seriously looking at Dave B's range. The external fuel tanks have apparently been dumped, possibly because they don't make a lot of sense except in very highly loaded configurations that may not even be able to do STOVL. The result is that 450 nm radius is the absolute max you're ever going to see, and that's with 2 x 1000 pounders and two AAMs.
And the only reason it happens at all, since the jet is overpowered and has a pretty standard internal fuel fraction (unlike A & C), is low drag without external weapons. Now, add external offensive ordnance - and since you are no longer stealthy, add a brace of SRAAMs - and range (or if you like, persistence-at-range) takes a double hit from weight and a marked drag increase.
450 nm radius? Where's that figure from, and what are the equivalent figures for A and C?
I was just reading an old post of yours.
You said that "Under the current schedule, too, the A and the C hit IOC around the same time (2Q13), which is ahead of what seems to be the UK IOC (3Q14). The main difference between the Marine, USAF/USN and UK timings would appear to be related to the three blocks of SDD capability:
Block 1 – Initial Warfighting Capability
Flight qualified, baseline air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons qualified. Pilot and maintenance training can commence. USMC declares IOC at this point.
Block 2 – Close Air Support and Interdiction
Qualifies additional air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. Services can start planning deployments and staffing operational units. USN/USAF declare IOC once this Block completes OT&E.
Block 3 – Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
Qualifies additional a/a & a/g weapons for use. Service Initial
Operational Capabilities are achievable. This is the RAF/RN entry into service standard."
Can you clarify? Do all Block 1s (A, C) come on stream at the same time, and all Block 2s, and then all Block 3s?
You also said that "Meanwhile, if I was the ruler of the Queen's Navee I would be seriously looking at Dave B's range. The external fuel tanks have apparently been dumped, possibly because they don't make a lot of sense except in very highly loaded configurations that may not even be able to do STOVL. The result is that 450 nm radius is the absolute max you're ever going to see, and that's with 2 x 1000 pounders and two AAMs.
And the only reason it happens at all, since the jet is overpowered and has a pretty standard internal fuel fraction (unlike A & C), is low drag without external weapons. Now, add external offensive ordnance - and since you are no longer stealthy, add a brace of SRAAMs - and range (or if you like, persistence-at-range) takes a double hit from weight and a marked drag increase.
450 nm radius? Where's that figure from, and what are the equivalent figures for A and C?
JN,
I could tell you, but then I'd have to shoot you up the Ponders End with a GAU-22/A.
As I understand it the first three Blocks emerge from SDD in consecutive years. 2011/12/13, allowing Block 3 to be installed on UK aircraft in 2013, followed by a year of UK-related training and work-up and on to HMS Big Lizzie in 2014.
That's to say, if all goes to schedule (and monkeys might fly out of my
).
450 nm is the much published (see JSF website briefs) KPP and it sure isn't going to do any better than that. It emerges that Dave B will be certified for external tanks in combat, but then you've pretty much blown stealth. The X factor is the max STO weight - not sure what it is, but I'll bet you won't take off from the ship on a hot day with full internal weapons, defensive SRAAMs, 2 x 425 gal tanks and two-packs of 1,000-pounders on the remaining two pylons.
I could tell you, but then I'd have to shoot you up the Ponders End with a GAU-22/A.
As I understand it the first three Blocks emerge from SDD in consecutive years. 2011/12/13, allowing Block 3 to be installed on UK aircraft in 2013, followed by a year of UK-related training and work-up and on to HMS Big Lizzie in 2014.
That's to say, if all goes to schedule (and monkeys might fly out of my
).450 nm is the much published (see JSF website briefs) KPP and it sure isn't going to do any better than that. It emerges that Dave B will be certified for external tanks in combat, but then you've pretty much blown stealth. The X factor is the max STO weight - not sure what it is, but I'll bet you won't take off from the ship on a hot day with full internal weapons, defensive SRAAMs, 2 x 425 gal tanks and two-packs of 1,000-pounders on the remaining two pylons.
Thanks LO. You stay away from my End, thanks very much. I know where you've been.
That's interesting stuff, certainly.
I wonder whether Beedall's predictions still represent the pie in the sky (sorry official) aspiration.
"The MOD currently expects that the first early production standard F-35B's will be delivered to the UK in 2012 (2 test aircraft will be completed in 2011), the JCA will formally enter service in December 2014 (with 10 aircraft delivered), the Harrier GR.9 will go out of service (OSD) in 2017, and that JCA deliveries will be completed with the delivery of unit 150 in about 2024. The UK plans to form the JCA Intensive Flying Trials Unit (IFTU) by 2014, with carrier compatibility trials taking place on the first of the new CVF's - HMS Queen Elizabeth - during the second half of the year. Assuming an aggressive timeline, we can expect the IFTU to become the Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU) squadron in early 2015, a training squadron (Operational Conversion Unit - OCU) to form later in 2015; and the first front-line Harrier GR.9 squadron (800 or 801 NAS) to begin converting to the F-35B in 2016, becoming operational in 2017, with the other squadrons following at roughly one year intervals."
So GR9 endex is 2017, leaving four squadrons without an aircraft, only one of which will become op on JCA that year, and one more of which will be converting.
After the revelation about eight aircraft squadrons for FOA, I wonder how big these first four JCA units will be......?
That's interesting stuff, certainly.
I wonder whether Beedall's predictions still represent the pie in the sky (sorry official) aspiration.
"The MOD currently expects that the first early production standard F-35B's will be delivered to the UK in 2012 (2 test aircraft will be completed in 2011), the JCA will formally enter service in December 2014 (with 10 aircraft delivered), the Harrier GR.9 will go out of service (OSD) in 2017, and that JCA deliveries will be completed with the delivery of unit 150 in about 2024. The UK plans to form the JCA Intensive Flying Trials Unit (IFTU) by 2014, with carrier compatibility trials taking place on the first of the new CVF's - HMS Queen Elizabeth - during the second half of the year. Assuming an aggressive timeline, we can expect the IFTU to become the Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU) squadron in early 2015, a training squadron (Operational Conversion Unit - OCU) to form later in 2015; and the first front-line Harrier GR.9 squadron (800 or 801 NAS) to begin converting to the F-35B in 2016, becoming operational in 2017, with the other squadrons following at roughly one year intervals."
So GR9 endex is 2017, leaving four squadrons without an aircraft, only one of which will become op on JCA that year, and one more of which will be converting.
After the revelation about eight aircraft squadrons for FOA, I wonder how big these first four JCA units will be......?
