Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Times: Defence chiefs have last-minute doubts about £4bn carriers
They were meant to be the pride and joy of Britain’s 21st-century fleet, an emblem of its pre-eminence as a military and diplomatic power. But last night it emerged that the imminent announcement of the commissioning of two aircraft carriers at a total cost of £4 billion has left some of the country’s senior military leaders deeply unhappy.
General Sir Timothy Granville-Chapman, the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, has written confidentially to all one-star and two-star officers in the Ministry of Defence — equivalent to brigadier and major-general — asking for their views about the need for a next-generation carrier strike force......
ps. Maybe someone should have a word with the Times Defence Editor about the, "RAF’s Super Lynx helicopter project".......
They were meant to be the pride and joy of Britain’s 21st-century fleet, an emblem of its pre-eminence as a military and diplomatic power. But last night it emerged that the imminent announcement of the commissioning of two aircraft carriers at a total cost of £4 billion has left some of the country’s senior military leaders deeply unhappy.
General Sir Timothy Granville-Chapman, the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, has written confidentially to all one-star and two-star officers in the Ministry of Defence — equivalent to brigadier and major-general — asking for their views about the need for a next-generation carrier strike force......
ps. Maybe someone should have a word with the Times Defence Editor about the, "RAF’s Super Lynx helicopter project".......
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Carriers
Boldface,
Yours was one of the best post's I've seen !
We do have a few spare platforms ( such as 'Ocean' if they took off the daft CIWS right on the end of the flightdeck, + the Argus amphibs' ).
I hate to beat the same drum, but we need Harier 2+ right now for reasons of BVR AMRAAM capability, ready availabity & relatively light weight on deck compared to the F-35B...
It's a well known saying that " all forces prepare for the previous war " - so in that case we should be preparing gun - toting Harriers ( a la AV-8B ? ) and Appache helo's -though seeing Russia & China tooling up, we may be in need of heavy duty kit inc. more 'Astute' class sub's after all !
DZ
Yours was one of the best post's I've seen !
We do have a few spare platforms ( such as 'Ocean' if they took off the daft CIWS right on the end of the flightdeck, + the Argus amphibs' ).
I hate to beat the same drum, but we need Harier 2+ right now for reasons of BVR AMRAAM capability, ready availabity & relatively light weight on deck compared to the F-35B...
It's a well known saying that " all forces prepare for the previous war " - so in that case we should be preparing gun - toting Harriers ( a la AV-8B ? ) and Appache helo's -though seeing Russia & China tooling up, we may be in need of heavy duty kit inc. more 'Astute' class sub's after all !
DZ
Last edited by Double Zero; 17th May 2008 at 17:31.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-carriers.html
It sounded a bit more positive in the hard-copy version of today's telegraph...
It sounded a bit more positive in the hard-copy version of today's telegraph...
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Interesting the buissness section of the daily telegraph during the week was speculating in cuts to the procurment budget for items like Astute,T45,Nimrod,Typhoon to try and plug the black hole in defence finance
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Officials believe the MoD failed to get their sums right in Budget negotiations and the Defence Management Board has been involved in last-minute pleas for more money.
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Announcement Today??
According to the BBC: "Firms scoop £4bn carrier contract".
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7409726.stm for whole story.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7409726.stm for whole story.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Sadly not we are still "getting ready to get ready". We are closer though, I suspect the contract will be signed as soon as the BAe/VT new legal entity is formed. At the moment it isn't.
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It is sad to see that we are still going ahead with this waste of money.
If only we had a politician with the balls to cancel it and Trident.
Sadly, the British electorate are irretrievably stupid and keep voting for billions of pounds of taxes being squanderd.
If only we had a politician with the balls to cancel it and Trident.
Sadly, the British electorate are irretrievably stupid and keep voting for billions of pounds of taxes being squanderd.
Reuters is a better bet than Auntie, they at least quote MinDP on pg 2
http://uk.reuters.com/article/domest...34854820080520
Looks like a letter of intent to proceed, so the JV can form and there will be an entity to place the contract with. As Naval Eye suggests "getting ready" rather than ready.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/domest...34854820080520
Looks like a letter of intent to proceed, so the JV can form and there will be an entity to place the contract with. As Naval Eye suggests "getting ready" rather than ready.
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Strange how the defence budget is so strapped, but we can come up overnight with 50 Billion for a waste of space like Northern Rock ?!
I can't help thinking we'd be better off with Harrier 2+ & AMRAAMS, with decent helo' forces - inc. more Merlins & Chinooks - from a few more, say 2/3rds the size but decidedly more versatile ships with a large Marines/ Army detachment - or is that too bleeding obvious ?
" Every Nation prepares for the previous war "...
I can't help thinking we'd be better off with Harrier 2+ & AMRAAMS, with decent helo' forces - inc. more Merlins & Chinooks - from a few more, say 2/3rds the size but decidedly more versatile ships with a large Marines/ Army detachment - or is that too bleeding obvious ?
" Every Nation prepares for the previous war "...
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DZ,
The Defence Budget is not strapped it is simply mismanaged.
Money is spent on huge white elephants with no practicable applications whilst the basics are either skimped on or simply not provided.
Cheers
BHR
The Defence Budget is not strapped it is simply mismanaged.
Money is spent on huge white elephants with no practicable applications whilst the basics are either skimped on or simply not provided.
Cheers
BHR
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It is sad to see that we are still going ahead with this waste of money.
If only we had a politician with the balls to cancel it and Trident.
Sadly, the British electorate are irretrievably stupid and keep voting for billions of pounds of taxes being squanderd.
If only we had a politician with the balls to cancel it and Trident.
Sadly, the British electorate are irretrievably stupid and keep voting for billions of pounds of taxes being squanderd.
Just as a matter of interest how would you see (a) The UKDF equiped and manned ? and (b) to do what?
And after you have saved all this money then what worth cause would you like to see it spent on?
I dont pretend to know much about defence but the least I would like to see is our armed services have at least enough equipment for all the situations that HMG (present and future) will no doubt put them in.
You obviously have some great idea's - do tell
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althenick,
You have hit the nail on the head when you call them UKDF.
Let them be Defence Forces.
Let them do the job they are mandated to do and that is Defend the Realm.
Neither Iraq or Afghanistan are part of that Realm anymore.
To what purpose are we there? Is the UK safer as a result? Certainly not, in fact the reverse is true.
Next up what do we need to spend £50billion, on purchasing and maintaining throughout its lifecycle, a SSBN fleet replacement for the Trident boats?
How does this defend the realm? We would be as well spending the money on a system of asteroid killing satellites on the off-chance the Earth might get struck by one.
We are not an Empire anymore and it is high time the HMG realised that fact.
"And after you have saved all this money then what worth cause would you like to see it spent on?"
Yeah you are right there is nothing better to spend it on. We do not need better schools, hospitals, etc, etc, etc.
Much more important we get some shiny new flat-tops and some new sleek black cock-compensators.
You have hit the nail on the head when you call them UKDF.
Let them be Defence Forces.
Let them do the job they are mandated to do and that is Defend the Realm.
Neither Iraq or Afghanistan are part of that Realm anymore.
To what purpose are we there? Is the UK safer as a result? Certainly not, in fact the reverse is true.
Next up what do we need to spend £50billion, on purchasing and maintaining throughout its lifecycle, a SSBN fleet replacement for the Trident boats?
How does this defend the realm? We would be as well spending the money on a system of asteroid killing satellites on the off-chance the Earth might get struck by one.
We are not an Empire anymore and it is high time the HMG realised that fact.
"And after you have saved all this money then what worth cause would you like to see it spent on?"
Yeah you are right there is nothing better to spend it on. We do not need better schools, hospitals, etc, etc, etc.
Much more important we get some shiny new flat-tops and some new sleek black cock-compensators.
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BillHicksRules,
Having seen incredible costs from contractors for the tiniest items - and not forgetting the comfy well-polished chairs & plasma screens in Whitehall - I completely agree !
If we cut out all the B.S. and civil serpents, we may well have a Navy, Air Force and an Army which isn't crappilly equipped, relying largely on charity to help out people who've given their all - plenty of money for dubious judges etc though !
I am not a Leftie, but I have wondered why we get such T.V. programmes as ' all tradesmen are bastards ' while we don't get ' Lawyers from Hell ' !
The answer I fear lies in the election & promotion system - I'm not into a Ben Elton type rant here, but it's blooming obvious when people get a very well paid position it's a case of ' Kiss arse until I retire on an unfeasibly large pension, any up-coming inadequacies are Someone Elses Problem ! '
Having seen incredible costs from contractors for the tiniest items - and not forgetting the comfy well-polished chairs & plasma screens in Whitehall - I completely agree !
If we cut out all the B.S. and civil serpents, we may well have a Navy, Air Force and an Army which isn't crappilly equipped, relying largely on charity to help out people who've given their all - plenty of money for dubious judges etc though !
I am not a Leftie, but I have wondered why we get such T.V. programmes as ' all tradesmen are bastards ' while we don't get ' Lawyers from Hell ' !
The answer I fear lies in the election & promotion system - I'm not into a Ben Elton type rant here, but it's blooming obvious when people get a very well paid position it's a case of ' Kiss arse until I retire on an unfeasibly large pension, any up-coming inadequacies are Someone Elses Problem ! '
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Bill,
You just gone up in my estimation (Unless of course you’re a Killie supporter!)
However
I can agree with all of this – unfortunately the current HMG seems hell-bent on retaining an interventionist foreign policy (AKA ‘A Force for good’ – though that’s debatable) So until we have a Gov’t that see’s sense then I’ll stick with the carriers and even trident (or some form of M.A.D. weapon)
I’ll apply another quote from you that is equally true of these departments…
<Insert Gov’t Department here> “is not strapped it is simply mismanaged.
Money is spent on huge white elephants with no practicable applications whilst the basics are either skimped on or simply not provided.”
You just gone up in my estimation (Unless of course you’re a Killie supporter!)
However
“Let them do the job they are mandated to do and that is Defend the Realm.
Neither Iraq or Afghanistan are part of that Realm anymore.
To what purpose are we there? Is the UK safer as a result? Certainly not, in fact the reverse is true.”
Neither Iraq or Afghanistan are part of that Realm anymore.
To what purpose are we there? Is the UK safer as a result? Certainly not, in fact the reverse is true.”
“Yeah you are right there is nothing better to spend it on. We do not need better schools, hospitals, etc, etc, etc”
<Insert Gov’t Department here> “is not strapped it is simply mismanaged.
Money is spent on huge white elephants with no practicable applications whilst the basics are either skimped on or simply not provided.”
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When you two have finished your love in, it may be good to remember that Scotland still remains an integral component of the World's 5th largest Economy. Perhaps, being pleased that we no longer have the Empire, you would like to talk us down to 15th position. Some would argue that the wealthy Nations have a duty to contribute to World security rather than simply live in the warm fluffy (perhaps tartan) blanket of their inward looking Welfare State. It is also worth remembering that we haven't yet imploded to the status of "just an other Country in Europe" and still have significant trade across the Atlantic and well outside the EU; all of which relies upon the security of our sea lanes. Boringly back to Thread; sea power is where the Carriers come in.
One thing I can agree with is that we do not have the right to interfere, by armed force, with a Sovereign Nation that has not, itself, performed an external act of aggression. If I agree on the doubtful need for large Carriers, it's simply through fear that it will skew the pitifully small Naval Budget for decades to come and reduce the FF/DD force to beneath all but a token level.
One thing I can agree with is that we do not have the right to interfere, by armed force, with a Sovereign Nation that has not, itself, performed an external act of aggression. If I agree on the doubtful need for large Carriers, it's simply through fear that it will skew the pitifully small Naval Budget for decades to come and reduce the FF/DD force to beneath all but a token level.
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GBZ,
The reason the BHR has gone up in my estimation is because at least he is prepared to give an opinion from a political point of view. You seem to think it is a Scottish thing, let me assure you it isn't. Personally I hope Scotland stays in the Union though I dare say the McReich up here will eventually get their way.
Carriers are not the b-all and end-all of the navy many other nations on an economic par with the UK do very well without them (Japan springs to mind) But you are right, loose the carriers and there will be nothing to replace them.
Even if the UK did give up being a world power, we would still need strong Armed forces and in particular Carriers. As the realm as BHR puts it, extends much further than our own shores.
The reason the BHR has gone up in my estimation is because at least he is prepared to give an opinion from a political point of view. You seem to think it is a Scottish thing, let me assure you it isn't. Personally I hope Scotland stays in the Union though I dare say the McReich up here will eventually get their way.
Carriers are not the b-all and end-all of the navy many other nations on an economic par with the UK do very well without them (Japan springs to mind) But you are right, loose the carriers and there will be nothing to replace them.
Even if the UK did give up being a world power, we would still need strong Armed forces and in particular Carriers. As the realm as BHR puts it, extends much further than our own shores.
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Let me interject with a question here.........
Where would you rather we fight Al Quaeda and the Taleban and any other brainwashed indoctrinated martyr?
In a horrid sandpit far away where our troops are trying to perform good and bring acceptable standards of human rights etc OR
here in blighty where our UKDF is illequipped and trained to cope because all we did was walk on the wall we put up.
A sitting target is easier to hit than one who is running around, sneaking up on you and giving you a shoeing while you try to get him.
YES we need, helo's, body armour, kit, wages commesurate with risk etc. We also need to think outside this current fracas and allow a little for what if........?
A starting point might be for us all to stop whining that my job is more important than your job, or only the deployed parts of the forces are working etc and start standing together.
I'm all for big ships, lots of aeroplanes, and men/women in uniform. Because otherwise we are heading for cheese eating surrender monkey status.
Where would you rather we fight Al Quaeda and the Taleban and any other brainwashed indoctrinated martyr?
In a horrid sandpit far away where our troops are trying to perform good and bring acceptable standards of human rights etc OR
here in blighty where our UKDF is illequipped and trained to cope because all we did was walk on the wall we put up.
A sitting target is easier to hit than one who is running around, sneaking up on you and giving you a shoeing while you try to get him.
YES we need, helo's, body armour, kit, wages commesurate with risk etc. We also need to think outside this current fracas and allow a little for what if........?
A starting point might be for us all to stop whining that my job is more important than your job, or only the deployed parts of the forces are working etc and start standing together.
I'm all for big ships, lots of aeroplanes, and men/women in uniform. Because otherwise we are heading for cheese eating surrender monkey status.
Let them be Defence Forces.
Let them do the job they are mandated to do and that is Defend the Realm.
Let them do the job they are mandated to do and that is Defend the Realm.
Ever heard of the list of 'mandated' Military Tasks? I can't find them on the web but the quote below is from the Defence Management Plan (I know it's full of management speak; don't shoot the messenger). 'Defence of the Realm' is but one part of a much bigger list; the Armed Forces are 'mandated' to do a lot more.
PSA Target 2: By 2008, deliver improved effectiveness of UK and international support for conflict prevention by addressing long-term structural causes of conflict,managing regional and national tension and violence, and supporting post-conflict reconstruction, where the UK can make a significant contribution, in particular Africa, Asia, Balkans and the Middle East. (Joint target with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development).
PSA Target 4: Play a leading role in the development of the European security
agenda, and enhance capabilities to undertake timely and effective security
operations, by successfully encouraging a more efficient and effective NATO, a more coherent and effective European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP) operating in strategic partnership with NATO, and enhanced European defence capabilities. (Joint target with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.)
During the period of this Plan, we will:
contribute to the development and implementation of the Government’s Global
Counter-Terrorism strategy; Global Counter-Terrorism strategy
Sub-objectives Develop and influence cross-Government Global Counter-Terrorism planning, develop coherence with US Counter-Terrorism policy
and plans, and ensure the availability, to allies, of sufficient UK military training capacity
PSA Target 4: Play a leading role in the development of the European security
agenda, and enhance capabilities to undertake timely and effective security
operations, by successfully encouraging a more efficient and effective NATO, a more coherent and effective European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP) operating in strategic partnership with NATO, and enhanced European defence capabilities. (Joint target with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.)
During the period of this Plan, we will:
contribute to the development and implementation of the Government’s Global
Counter-Terrorism strategy; Global Counter-Terrorism strategy
Sub-objectives Develop and influence cross-Government Global Counter-Terrorism planning, develop coherence with US Counter-Terrorism policy
and plans, and ensure the availability, to allies, of sufficient UK military training capacity
Yeah you are right there is nothing better to spend it on. We do not need better schools, hospitals, etc, etc, etc