Free Masons - Should they "come out"?
Hellbound
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I don't pretend to know anything about how the Mason's operate, but this whole 'preferential treatment' argument seems a bit dull.
We all judge people, rightly or wrongly, on their backgrounds, their life and work experiences (else why else have a CV?). IF (IFIFIFIFIF) it happens, I can't see what is wrong with taking membership of a organisation that does huge amounts of charity work, with the associated sacrifice of time and money, into account.
It seems a lot more honest to me than the 'Old school Network, or relying on one's London Club membership or Daddy's money to get a job. Only difference is Masons can come from any background and I beleive that the only 'general' criteria for joining (if one joins!) is that members should believe in a 'higher being'. I don't, which is why I have never taken my interest further.
As I said, if I am talking rubbish, I apologise to the Masons on the thread, but it just gets on my t**s when everyone wants to know everyone else's business, basing their justification on rumour and conjucture.
Shutting up now.
We all judge people, rightly or wrongly, on their backgrounds, their life and work experiences (else why else have a CV?). IF (IFIFIFIFIF) it happens, I can't see what is wrong with taking membership of a organisation that does huge amounts of charity work, with the associated sacrifice of time and money, into account.
It seems a lot more honest to me than the 'Old school Network, or relying on one's London Club membership or Daddy's money to get a job. Only difference is Masons can come from any background and I beleive that the only 'general' criteria for joining (if one joins!) is that members should believe in a 'higher being'. I don't, which is why I have never taken my interest further.
As I said, if I am talking rubbish, I apologise to the Masons on the thread, but it just gets on my t**s when everyone wants to know everyone else's business, basing their justification on rumour and conjucture.
Shutting up now.
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Tigs,
I have no axe to grind about masons, they are a fact of life, but I KNOW that secret advantage is given by masons to masons. That is what secret societies are for, not only yours. Why else do they exist? You don't need one to do good and since masons tell of the good work they do (you can't get more public than the large number of masonic hospitals), it can't be for that reason.
As I said in my earlier post, masonic lodges are not corrupt, they are corrupting; it is human nature to use systems to advantage and sectret societies give that option and many use it.
Sorry, but I don't accept your view.
I have no axe to grind about masons, they are a fact of life, but I KNOW that secret advantage is given by masons to masons. That is what secret societies are for, not only yours. Why else do they exist? You don't need one to do good and since masons tell of the good work they do (you can't get more public than the large number of masonic hospitals), it can't be for that reason.
As I said in my earlier post, masonic lodges are not corrupt, they are corrupting; it is human nature to use systems to advantage and sectret societies give that option and many use it.
Sorry, but I don't accept your view.
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C&B
I accept your view which is one that is formed from a position of ignorance (i.e lack of knowledge, no slur intended). Please will you accept from me that in my experience and the peer group around me i have not (and they haven't) ever used Masonry to gain any form of advantage. It does not happen. I know that there are various books out there ('The Brotherhood' springs to mind) which are full of sensationalist sh**e. There is nothing in that book that resembles anything i have ever encountered, but the reason it was full of sensationalist sh**e was to sell books, and it worked. It is now starting to hurt banging my head on the wall, i repeat, we help the poor, not ourselves. There may be other groups that naturally give advantage to each other, but apart from a bed for the night if a visiting mason is in the area we do not do that. I do not know how to make it any clearer.
I accept your view which is one that is formed from a position of ignorance (i.e lack of knowledge, no slur intended). Please will you accept from me that in my experience and the peer group around me i have not (and they haven't) ever used Masonry to gain any form of advantage. It does not happen. I know that there are various books out there ('The Brotherhood' springs to mind) which are full of sensationalist sh**e. There is nothing in that book that resembles anything i have ever encountered, but the reason it was full of sensationalist sh**e was to sell books, and it worked. It is now starting to hurt banging my head on the wall, i repeat, we help the poor, not ourselves. There may be other groups that naturally give advantage to each other, but apart from a bed for the night if a visiting mason is in the area we do not do that. I do not know how to make it any clearer.
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Tigs,
I don't speak from ignorance, nor from reading The Brotherhood, but from experience. I am delighted thatyou have never encountered the circumstances which I have.
I am still unclear why you need a secret society? (And, please, not the cliche, 'society with secrets', that is a semantic play on words and is not wholly accurate).
Anyway, you have your view and I have mine. The original thread was about masons in the RAF. I have no experience of that grouping so shall leave it to others to contribute.
This subject has become uninteresting since we are each stating and restating our views and affecting no one.
I don't speak from ignorance, nor from reading The Brotherhood, but from experience. I am delighted thatyou have never encountered the circumstances which I have.
I am still unclear why you need a secret society? (And, please, not the cliche, 'society with secrets', that is a semantic play on words and is not wholly accurate).
Anyway, you have your view and I have mine. The original thread was about masons in the RAF. I have no experience of that grouping so shall leave it to others to contribute.
This subject has become uninteresting since we are each stating and restating our views and affecting no one.
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C & B
Before you disappear from this discussion.......
Please let me repeat my advice that you take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England ( inc Wales ) are all in the phone book. Freemasonry is just as keen as you are to eliminate wrong doing by its members.
Perhaps you would also let us know where all these Masonic Hospitals are ? The only one in England was the Royal Masonic Hospital at Hammersmith, and that was sold off 20 years ago. Perhaps all the others are being kept secret - even from the Masons.
Before you disappear from this discussion.......
Please let me repeat my advice that you take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England ( inc Wales ) are all in the phone book. Freemasonry is just as keen as you are to eliminate wrong doing by its members.
Perhaps you would also let us know where all these Masonic Hospitals are ? The only one in England was the Royal Masonic Hospital at Hammersmith, and that was sold off 20 years ago. Perhaps all the others are being kept secret - even from the Masons.
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New to the Cranwell Area
I have been asked by a "soon-to-be inhabitant " of RAF Cranwell whether I knew anything about meetings in the area. As I was taught to be cautious could any Brethren at that stn contact me off-line to guide me for contacts, times and places etc so that p&p may be the result.
Regards
Farrier
Regards
Farrier
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I'm a Mason.
And I told all my ROs in the Reporting Chain (who were not Masons I might add) when I was first invited. [This was due to a now out of date DCI stating that membership was illegal - then - circa 1980s?].
It has never helped me professionally!
I joined cos of five things:
1. Curiosity.
2. Grandad was one.
3. Having read the Holy Blood & the Holy Grail many years before. I genuinely love the stuff about ancient Rome / Solomon etc.
4. Charity.
5. A personal belief - formally mirrored by my fraternal brothers - that all men are born equal.
I have also been DV'd. And 'fessed up to my Masonic membership.
I remain a member because of two other reasons:
1. I like the members! A good bunch.
2.
[Not a professional reason, now]
And I close now!
For those deployed on ops - heads down guys n gals. Stay safe.
And I told all my ROs in the Reporting Chain (who were not Masons I might add) when I was first invited. [This was due to a now out of date DCI stating that membership was illegal - then - circa 1980s?].
It has never helped me professionally!
I joined cos of five things:
1. Curiosity.
2. Grandad was one.
3. Having read the Holy Blood & the Holy Grail many years before. I genuinely love the stuff about ancient Rome / Solomon etc.
4. Charity.
5. A personal belief - formally mirrored by my fraternal brothers - that all men are born equal.
I have also been DV'd. And 'fessed up to my Masonic membership.
I remain a member because of two other reasons:
1. I like the members! A good bunch.
2.
[Not a professional reason, now]And I close now!
For those deployed on ops - heads down guys n gals. Stay safe.
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Originally Posted by Formally Known As
"oh really what about jack the ripper............"
Here are 2 more, Kenneth Noyle, the M25 road rage murderer.
The perpetrator of the Dumblain massacre, forgotten the name.
Here are 2 more, Kenneth Noyle, the M25 road rage murderer.
The perpetrator of the Dumblain massacre, forgotten the name.
how many crimes are commited by non freemasons?
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anton meyer wrote: Oaths? ..they are unrelated but I do have a marital oath and 2 professional oaths that are all equally important to me, let alone those that I make in Open Lodge.
but what about 'closed lodge'?
of preferential treatment:
mostlymoderate wrote: 'However, in the case of two otherwise equally qualified candidates, one of whom I had reason to believe to be a Mason, he would get the job - simply because I would believe him to be respectable, honest and trustworthy.'
and
tigs2 wrote: 'If indeed they do look after each other it would only be the same as you looking after a really good mate from your mess.' and 'There may be other groups that naturally give advantage to each other, but apart from a bed for the night if a visiting mason is in the area we do not do that' and 'Our people are professional regardless of their private little hobbies....'.
aside from sniggering at tigs2's 'private little hobbies', does this really mean that a mason may be considered more suitable for a position of trust, whether it is in the workplace or the home, than someone that is also suitably qualified/acceptable? isn't there plenty of scope for professional boundaries and rational decisions to become blurred on that basis? do the masons have criminal records bureau checks? are there such a thing as born again masons that have turned over a new leaf? i do good and charitable deeds daily in my job will you offer me a job/bed for the night? might the person who is not selected because they're not a mason have a right to feel aggrieved?
on a less serious note:
tigs2 wrote: 'Infact as a mason you can knock on the door of any lodge for any meeting and you are welcome in. In England i can only go to a meeting if formally invited.' and 'who says it is your grail??'
well if your lot hadn't pinched it from it's rightful home in glastonbury, they might let you in without suspicion!
mostlymoderate wrote 'Freemasons in this country raise the best part of £10,000,000 a year for Charities, both Masonic and non-Masonic. Plus what they may give privately. That is second only to the National Lottery!' and tigs2 wrote 'About the grail, who says it is your grail?? I have seen the grail it is in !!!!'
are you sure it wasn't a tea caddy? it seems to me that if charity work is not just a front to make them acceptable whilst really trying to take over the world, they should let people know. but how come there as so many neds and sengas still living a life of squalor and penury in the tenements? perhaps the grail (an object supposedly invested with enormous power) is not being used appropriately and thus should be returned to england.
tigs2 wrote:'Yeh! we do that all the time, stabbing people in the back and cutting their throats, we are all mad murderers and serial killers.'
exactly! what about poor captain william morgan and his publisher? http://www.zephnet.com/?select=squib...et=1&linkoff=1
tigs2 (the lee harvey oswald of the masonic world) wrote: 'I am also a member of the Knights Templar'
yes of course tigs! i do hope you are older than 33 http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...emason_sig.htm ..... last supper? http://www.letchworthshop.co.uk/shop-images/1135.jpg
anyway, now the masons are all touchy feely and people are still suspicious..... i wonder why? nothing sinister about them at all is there? http://www.letchworthshop.co.uk/shop-images/1630.jpg
perhaps it's not such a good idea to allow it in the military after all....
but what about 'closed lodge'?
of preferential treatment:
mostlymoderate wrote: 'However, in the case of two otherwise equally qualified candidates, one of whom I had reason to believe to be a Mason, he would get the job - simply because I would believe him to be respectable, honest and trustworthy.'
and
tigs2 wrote: 'If indeed they do look after each other it would only be the same as you looking after a really good mate from your mess.' and 'There may be other groups that naturally give advantage to each other, but apart from a bed for the night if a visiting mason is in the area we do not do that' and 'Our people are professional regardless of their private little hobbies....'.
aside from sniggering at tigs2's 'private little hobbies', does this really mean that a mason may be considered more suitable for a position of trust, whether it is in the workplace or the home, than someone that is also suitably qualified/acceptable? isn't there plenty of scope for professional boundaries and rational decisions to become blurred on that basis? do the masons have criminal records bureau checks? are there such a thing as born again masons that have turned over a new leaf? i do good and charitable deeds daily in my job will you offer me a job/bed for the night? might the person who is not selected because they're not a mason have a right to feel aggrieved?
on a less serious note:
tigs2 wrote: 'Infact as a mason you can knock on the door of any lodge for any meeting and you are welcome in. In England i can only go to a meeting if formally invited.' and 'who says it is your grail??'
well if your lot hadn't pinched it from it's rightful home in glastonbury, they might let you in without suspicion!
mostlymoderate wrote 'Freemasons in this country raise the best part of £10,000,000 a year for Charities, both Masonic and non-Masonic. Plus what they may give privately. That is second only to the National Lottery!' and tigs2 wrote 'About the grail, who says it is your grail?? I have seen the grail it is in !!!!'
are you sure it wasn't a tea caddy? it seems to me that if charity work is not just a front to make them acceptable whilst really trying to take over the world, they should let people know. but how come there as so many neds and sengas still living a life of squalor and penury in the tenements? perhaps the grail (an object supposedly invested with enormous power) is not being used appropriately and thus should be returned to england.
tigs2 wrote:'Yeh! we do that all the time, stabbing people in the back and cutting their throats, we are all mad murderers and serial killers.'
exactly! what about poor captain william morgan and his publisher? http://www.zephnet.com/?select=squib...et=1&linkoff=1
tigs2 (the lee harvey oswald of the masonic world) wrote: 'I am also a member of the Knights Templar'
yes of course tigs! i do hope you are older than 33 http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...emason_sig.htm ..... last supper? http://www.letchworthshop.co.uk/shop-images/1135.jpg
anyway, now the masons are all touchy feely and people are still suspicious..... i wonder why? nothing sinister about them at all is there? http://www.letchworthshop.co.uk/shop-images/1630.jpg
perhaps it's not such a good idea to allow it in the military after all....
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I've just found this thread and am not a mason, despite being asked to consider membership on several occasions. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect, but isn't there something in the Masons' Code of Conduct (or whatever it may be called) about always supporting/assisting a fellow mason who is in trouble, provided that such support/help does not fall outside the law? I think I'm paraphrasing part of an explanation my father-in-law gave me when I was quizzing him about allegations of favourtism, his point being, presumably, that there is a subtle but important difference between helping a fellow in trouble rather than giving a masonic mate an unfair bunk-up.
Perhaps one of you masons following this thread can give a more accurate rendition?
Perhaps one of you masons following this thread can give a more accurate rendition?
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Meadowbank
Not too far off the mark. A Mason will ( or should ) always offer a helping hand to another who is in difficulty, provided always that such help does not contravene the laws of his God ( the deity of his particular faith ) or his country ( native or current ), or would be to the detriment of his family and dependents. His assistance is limited to what he can afford to do or to give, and he is under no compunction to give help where it is not needed.
Having said that, I think you will find that most Masons are the sort of characters who are only too willing to help anyone less fortunate than themselves - masons or not.
Hope that helps.
MM
Not too far off the mark. A Mason will ( or should ) always offer a helping hand to another who is in difficulty, provided always that such help does not contravene the laws of his God ( the deity of his particular faith ) or his country ( native or current ), or would be to the detriment of his family and dependents. His assistance is limited to what he can afford to do or to give, and he is under no compunction to give help where it is not needed.
Having said that, I think you will find that most Masons are the sort of characters who are only too willing to help anyone less fortunate than themselves - masons or not.
Hope that helps.
MM
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MeadowBank
Mostly Moderate has hit the Nail on the head.
Civ Job
I am really not sure what your problem is. and reviewing the posts i am not sure what i have done to deserve such a personal abusive post? (Lee Harvey Oswald?). Anyway, the main difference between us, is that i do not remotely think like you. You clearly have a knack for seeing the bad in everything and the good in nothing. I will not waste my time repeating this again. We 'masons' do not give unfare assistance/promotion/bunk-ups to anyone. We help the needy.
You keep harping on about the same things CivJob. Your comment concerning the Grail is typical of the cynical ignorant approach you have. You say
quote "perhaps the grail (an object supposedly invested with enormous power) is not being used appropriately and thus should be returned to england." Why returned to England CivJob?? You are ill/miss-informed to believe it has ever been in England? Even if it had, why should it not be returned from where it was taken? Does the Rossetta stone belong in England? Or should it be returned to its rightful owners?Furthermore, the grail was never in Glastonbury (but well done, you helped feed the authors who said it was). I suppose you too think it is a jewel encrusted golden cup, and that Christ was a white handsome male (same as the interpritation of God in the Vatican). Why should the grail be invested with amazing powers? Too many Indiana Jones movies. The only power it possesses is the power that we (humans) bestowed upon it, and that has led to unimaginable corruption and crimes against humanity. So all in all its better off well out of the way really.
Bye the way if you were the type of chap who did good deeds for others then yes, i for one would certainly welcome you for the night and expect nothing in return, however i think you try and see too much of the bad in people, so i am not sure you fit in the bracket (could be wrong of course).
Again you are hitting on the fact that Jack the Ripper and others (Masons) were murderers (we still dont know who Jack the ripper was, and one of the chaps they have narrowed it down to was not a mason). I have known policemen convicted of murder, does that mean they all do it? Doctors, Dentists, Bank Managers have been convicted, does that mean they all are. Some soldiers have been accused and convicted of torture in Iraq, does that mean all of our soldiers do it?? Your responses are very immature, you say you hope i am above 33, well from your responses i hope you are above 16.
Inccidentaly concerning the quite unlawful murder of Quote " poor captain william morgan and his publisher?". In the 19th century William Morgan threatend to write ALL of the secrets of the early grades of masonry (maybe this is where Jack the Ripper got his info from! They think he could have been living in the US), at a time in our (the worlds) history when he joined an organisation that at the time would have stated quite clearly that to divulge secrets would have meant death. Once in the club you kept it secret. It was the same as many 'secret' organisations in those days. Despite many many warnings, he published, and a few nutcases ( the world still has lots of them around) decided to kill him. I actually have an original first edition of the Morgan Document stating on the front he had just been murdered as it was going to print, if anyones interested in buying (guess e-bay is better). Masons are not told anymore that they will be murdered you may be glad to hear. Its just all a matter of trust. A trust that once placed in you, you are loathed under any circumstances to break, because its TRUST, CivJOB. Your posts indicate that you do not really experience that mutual feeling of trust in many people, and with that i feel quite sad for you.
The thing about trust and helping the needy CivJob is that it is really good for the soul. It makes you and others feel good. If you do not believe in the soul then i guess nothing really matters, you can be negative and cynical and untrusting, and what the hell. But you never get that genuine feel good factor (totally different i might add to owning your first Ferrari or buying a million pound house. Thats all material crap).
Try looking for the good in people, eventually it will be reciprocated, and you will feel really really good about yourself.
Tigs
Mostly Moderate has hit the Nail on the head.
Civ Job
I am really not sure what your problem is. and reviewing the posts i am not sure what i have done to deserve such a personal abusive post? (Lee Harvey Oswald?). Anyway, the main difference between us, is that i do not remotely think like you. You clearly have a knack for seeing the bad in everything and the good in nothing. I will not waste my time repeating this again. We 'masons' do not give unfare assistance/promotion/bunk-ups to anyone. We help the needy.
You keep harping on about the same things CivJob. Your comment concerning the Grail is typical of the cynical ignorant approach you have. You say
quote "perhaps the grail (an object supposedly invested with enormous power) is not being used appropriately and thus should be returned to england." Why returned to England CivJob?? You are ill/miss-informed to believe it has ever been in England? Even if it had, why should it not be returned from where it was taken? Does the Rossetta stone belong in England? Or should it be returned to its rightful owners?Furthermore, the grail was never in Glastonbury (but well done, you helped feed the authors who said it was). I suppose you too think it is a jewel encrusted golden cup, and that Christ was a white handsome male (same as the interpritation of God in the Vatican). Why should the grail be invested with amazing powers? Too many Indiana Jones movies. The only power it possesses is the power that we (humans) bestowed upon it, and that has led to unimaginable corruption and crimes against humanity. So all in all its better off well out of the way really.
Bye the way if you were the type of chap who did good deeds for others then yes, i for one would certainly welcome you for the night and expect nothing in return, however i think you try and see too much of the bad in people, so i am not sure you fit in the bracket (could be wrong of course).
Again you are hitting on the fact that Jack the Ripper and others (Masons) were murderers (we still dont know who Jack the ripper was, and one of the chaps they have narrowed it down to was not a mason). I have known policemen convicted of murder, does that mean they all do it? Doctors, Dentists, Bank Managers have been convicted, does that mean they all are. Some soldiers have been accused and convicted of torture in Iraq, does that mean all of our soldiers do it?? Your responses are very immature, you say you hope i am above 33, well from your responses i hope you are above 16.
Inccidentaly concerning the quite unlawful murder of Quote " poor captain william morgan and his publisher?". In the 19th century William Morgan threatend to write ALL of the secrets of the early grades of masonry (maybe this is where Jack the Ripper got his info from! They think he could have been living in the US), at a time in our (the worlds) history when he joined an organisation that at the time would have stated quite clearly that to divulge secrets would have meant death. Once in the club you kept it secret. It was the same as many 'secret' organisations in those days. Despite many many warnings, he published, and a few nutcases ( the world still has lots of them around) decided to kill him. I actually have an original first edition of the Morgan Document stating on the front he had just been murdered as it was going to print, if anyones interested in buying (guess e-bay is better). Masons are not told anymore that they will be murdered you may be glad to hear. Its just all a matter of trust. A trust that once placed in you, you are loathed under any circumstances to break, because its TRUST, CivJOB. Your posts indicate that you do not really experience that mutual feeling of trust in many people, and with that i feel quite sad for you.
The thing about trust and helping the needy CivJob is that it is really good for the soul. It makes you and others feel good. If you do not believe in the soul then i guess nothing really matters, you can be negative and cynical and untrusting, and what the hell. But you never get that genuine feel good factor (totally different i might add to owning your first Ferrari or buying a million pound house. Thats all material crap).
Try looking for the good in people, eventually it will be reciprocated, and you will feel really really good about yourself.
Tigs
Last edited by Tigs2; 12th Apr 2006 at 17:09.
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MM,
Ah yes, those words sound more familiar now and lead me to the point I was going to make:
Let's take a hypothetical situation within the UK Armed Forces (which is the area of concern that started this thread). An officer makes a decision based on his interpretation of the circumstances. However, it subsequently becomes apparent that this decision was not the correct one and he has unfairly disadvantaged (perhaps seriously) someone on the receiving end of this decision, who has subsequently voiced his dissatisfaction, requesting redress. Our hero could change his mind, reversing his previous decision, but the circumstances mean that this would result in serious embarrassment and loss of face. Fortunately, this officer is a freemason and there's a guy two ranks above him in the command chain whom he knows to be a fellow freemason (perhaps they even belong to the same lodge), so he approaches him for 'help in his difficulty'. This senior officer recognises his masonic brother's dilemma ('need') and supports the original decision of the offficer who, whilst junior to him in terms of military rank may well, if I understand correctly, be junior, senior or equal to him in terms of masonic status (degree?).
Thus, the senior officer has saved the embarrassment of his junior (to the detriment - again - of the 'disadvantagee', at no personal cost. This is the kind of area that is sublty different to, yet really the same as, giving someone an obvious bunk-up such as ensuring (sponsoring) the man's promotion. There is a broad feeling of suspicion (and that is all we are talking about here) that this sort of thing goes on throughout society, and the sentiment expressed by non-masons on this thread is that this is not appropriate in HM Armed Forces. Well, I now work for a civilian organisation and the volume of rumours about freemasons being promoted ahead of their non-masonic peers is probably larger than that which I can recall during my service days.
So, what would be a suitable way forward, which would show freemasonry in a good light, helping to remove (misplaced?) suspicion, without disclosing the identities of those who prefer to keep their masonic light under a bushel? How about, instead of publishing names as the thread-originator suggests, why not research and release figures for numbers of freemasons within particular organisations, especially those organisations which are, shall we say, most sensitive? These would certainly include the Police, Army, Navy, RAF, Judiciary, MPs and peers, but other professions may well be seen as necessary (teachers, barristers, town-planning officers?). This would infringe no-one's personal liberty and would calm the disquiet if, as masonic contributors to this thread seem to suggest, there is an equal spread of masons throughout society. If 5% (number made up - I have no idea!) of professional workers are freemasons and it transpires that 15% of senior Army officers wield the trowel (or whatever ), this might be grounds for genuine concern for both mason and non-mason alike.
Hope this drags the discussion away from the personal insults.
MB
Ah yes, those words sound more familiar now and lead me to the point I was going to make:
Let's take a hypothetical situation within the UK Armed Forces (which is the area of concern that started this thread). An officer makes a decision based on his interpretation of the circumstances. However, it subsequently becomes apparent that this decision was not the correct one and he has unfairly disadvantaged (perhaps seriously) someone on the receiving end of this decision, who has subsequently voiced his dissatisfaction, requesting redress. Our hero could change his mind, reversing his previous decision, but the circumstances mean that this would result in serious embarrassment and loss of face. Fortunately, this officer is a freemason and there's a guy two ranks above him in the command chain whom he knows to be a fellow freemason (perhaps they even belong to the same lodge), so he approaches him for 'help in his difficulty'. This senior officer recognises his masonic brother's dilemma ('need') and supports the original decision of the offficer who, whilst junior to him in terms of military rank may well, if I understand correctly, be junior, senior or equal to him in terms of masonic status (degree?).
Thus, the senior officer has saved the embarrassment of his junior (to the detriment - again - of the 'disadvantagee', at no personal cost. This is the kind of area that is sublty different to, yet really the same as, giving someone an obvious bunk-up such as ensuring (sponsoring) the man's promotion. There is a broad feeling of suspicion (and that is all we are talking about here) that this sort of thing goes on throughout society, and the sentiment expressed by non-masons on this thread is that this is not appropriate in HM Armed Forces. Well, I now work for a civilian organisation and the volume of rumours about freemasons being promoted ahead of their non-masonic peers is probably larger than that which I can recall during my service days.
So, what would be a suitable way forward, which would show freemasonry in a good light, helping to remove (misplaced?) suspicion, without disclosing the identities of those who prefer to keep their masonic light under a bushel? How about, instead of publishing names as the thread-originator suggests, why not research and release figures for numbers of freemasons within particular organisations, especially those organisations which are, shall we say, most sensitive? These would certainly include the Police, Army, Navy, RAF, Judiciary, MPs and peers, but other professions may well be seen as necessary (teachers, barristers, town-planning officers?). This would infringe no-one's personal liberty and would calm the disquiet if, as masonic contributors to this thread seem to suggest, there is an equal spread of masons throughout society. If 5% (number made up - I have no idea!) of professional workers are freemasons and it transpires that 15% of senior Army officers wield the trowel (or whatever
), this might be grounds for genuine concern for both mason and non-mason alike. Hope this drags the discussion away from the personal insults.
MB
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MM
you're welcome.
Meadowbank
Just when i thought you were sending in reasonable posts....
If you re-read MM's post then what he is actually driving at is that these 'difficulties' are generally financial ones (they could be a shoulder to lean on). For example "hello Jim everything all right mate, your're not your usual self?' 'Not really' says JIm 'the bank are about to repossess the house, i'm 2 months behind with my mortgage' 'Look mate' he is told 'dont worry, ive got some spare cash if it will help, you're welcome to it, just pay it back whenever you can, no pressure'. Its as simple and uncorrupt as that. I would like to think you would do that for a mate if it were not going to cause you hardship. I would, and he dosnt have to be a mason.
some of you guys are really starting to grind me down aaaaagh!
Your hypothetical situation does not work, it doesn't happen. As you say at the end maybe 15% of officers may be a part of masonry, i dont even know the numbers. That means 85% are NOT in masonry. Are you trying to tell me that masons would be the only ones to do favours for each other? I have NEVER heard of a mason giving a peg up or unfair/ unlawful advantage to another mason in the RAF. I cant speak for the other services. Now from the result of other posts i need to repeat that. I have NEVER heard of a mason giving a peg up or unfair/ unlawful advantage to another mason in the RAF. I cant speak for the other services.
What is far more common and likely and the reason that i left is a flight/squadron commander giving advantage to their golden boy/golden girl. Or the squadron commander who gives advantage to a subordinate because they were mates on the same IOT, flying course, Squadron. It is more likely that this would be the case in your scenario. There are blatant examples in the past of certain flying instructors giving students of the opposite sex a very unfair advantage and 'peg-up' in the flying training system. Not because they were masons, but because of the fact they fancied the other, and i know cases of this occurring in instructors of both sexes, to the extent that one course commander resigned because he was told be the CFI to pass a student of the opposite sex who was way below standard, and he would not put his name to something that was clearly favoratism. Or the chief Tech who changed the 1st RO's report on a JT from rec to spec rec, because it turned out the CT told the 1st ro that the JT had always done a great job baby sitting for him.
Is the picture building up here? People who like other people, who fancy other people, who owe other people, who joined together, who trained together, who have others as their 'golden boy' give those respective people an unfair peg up the system. Masons go to great lengths to make sure that in a professional environment we do not get caught giving unfair advantage. If we did it would give ammo to people like you Meadowbank. If you know of one example of a mason giving unfair advantage to another in the armed forces then tell us. But i know of dozens of examples of non-masons giving non-masons a distinct advantage, for many reasons concerning human interaction. In any organisation, if your face fits with those above you, then you will be advantaged.
Meadowbank and the rest of you concerned with Masonry, i would stop worrying about the 15% of masons and start worrying about the 85% of non masons who i can state examples of giving unfair advantage to others.
you're welcome.
Meadowbank
Just when i thought you were sending in reasonable posts....
If you re-read MM's post then what he is actually driving at is that these 'difficulties' are generally financial ones (they could be a shoulder to lean on). For example "hello Jim everything all right mate, your're not your usual self?' 'Not really' says JIm 'the bank are about to repossess the house, i'm 2 months behind with my mortgage' 'Look mate' he is told 'dont worry, ive got some spare cash if it will help, you're welcome to it, just pay it back whenever you can, no pressure'. Its as simple and uncorrupt as that. I would like to think you would do that for a mate if it were not going to cause you hardship. I would, and he dosnt have to be a mason.
some of you guys are really starting to grind me down aaaaagh!
Your hypothetical situation does not work, it doesn't happen. As you say at the end maybe 15% of officers may be a part of masonry, i dont even know the numbers. That means 85% are NOT in masonry. Are you trying to tell me that masons would be the only ones to do favours for each other? I have NEVER heard of a mason giving a peg up or unfair/ unlawful advantage to another mason in the RAF. I cant speak for the other services. Now from the result of other posts i need to repeat that. I have NEVER heard of a mason giving a peg up or unfair/ unlawful advantage to another mason in the RAF. I cant speak for the other services.
What is far more common and likely and the reason that i left is a flight/squadron commander giving advantage to their golden boy/golden girl. Or the squadron commander who gives advantage to a subordinate because they were mates on the same IOT, flying course, Squadron. It is more likely that this would be the case in your scenario. There are blatant examples in the past of certain flying instructors giving students of the opposite sex a very unfair advantage and 'peg-up' in the flying training system. Not because they were masons, but because of the fact they fancied the other, and i know cases of this occurring in instructors of both sexes, to the extent that one course commander resigned because he was told be the CFI to pass a student of the opposite sex who was way below standard, and he would not put his name to something that was clearly favoratism. Or the chief Tech who changed the 1st RO's report on a JT from rec to spec rec, because it turned out the CT told the 1st ro that the JT had always done a great job baby sitting for him.
Is the picture building up here? People who like other people, who fancy other people, who owe other people, who joined together, who trained together, who have others as their 'golden boy' give those respective people an unfair peg up the system. Masons go to great lengths to make sure that in a professional environment we do not get caught giving unfair advantage. If we did it would give ammo to people like you Meadowbank. If you know of one example of a mason giving unfair advantage to another in the armed forces then tell us. But i know of dozens of examples of non-masons giving non-masons a distinct advantage, for many reasons concerning human interaction. In any organisation, if your face fits with those above you, then you will be advantaged.
Meadowbank and the rest of you concerned with Masonry, i would stop worrying about the 15% of masons and start worrying about the 85% of non masons who i can state examples of giving unfair advantage to others.
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Tigs2 and Meadowbank
If I may add to the last couple of posts a reference to what I explained earlier on in this thread. I would deem the said officer to be out of order in atttempting to use his membership for personal advantage, and I would expect the senior officer to tell him so in no uncertain terms. Perhaps an acceptable approach might be " Look , sir, I've got myself into a hole and I would appreciate your advice as to how best to extricate myself". We all know someone a couple of rungs up the ladder to whom we can turn for advice - whatever our profession.
FYI, Meadowbank, generally, masonic rank is conferred in recognition of service given, and outside specifically masonic matters it carries no authority.
To quote Burns - " Rank is but the guinea-stamp. The man himself's the Gold ".
A few years ago, the Home Affairs Select Committee, ably agitated by Messrs Mullins and Winnick, declared Freemasonry to be a self seeking secret society incompatible with all forms of public life ( or similar wording ). In consequence, the bandwagonners started demanding declarations of membership from the police, the judiciary, local authorities et al. All were supposed to be voluntary. The MOD issued a DCI " reminding members of the Armed Forces that masonry might be detrimental to the performance of their duties etc etc " .(again I paraphrase ). When asked of precisely what they were being reminded, a lengthy silence ensued.
The United Grand Lodge of England took the MOD to court, on the grounds that it was incompatible with UK and European Law to single out Freemasonry. Why not Rotary, Round Table, Buffaloes, WI, Golf Clubs or any other organisation. UGLE won, MOD paid all costs and the DCI was withdrawn. Over the next year or two, demands from other bodies have been quietly dropped.
And Meadowbank's request that we " move forward " seems a bit pointless. I do not wish to " move forward" . I am happy where I am. I don't need a "way ahead" or any other management-speak expression designed to make me lead my life according to someone else's agenda.
MM
If I may add to the last couple of posts a reference to what I explained earlier on in this thread. I would deem the said officer to be out of order in atttempting to use his membership for personal advantage, and I would expect the senior officer to tell him so in no uncertain terms. Perhaps an acceptable approach might be " Look , sir, I've got myself into a hole and I would appreciate your advice as to how best to extricate myself". We all know someone a couple of rungs up the ladder to whom we can turn for advice - whatever our profession.
FYI, Meadowbank, generally, masonic rank is conferred in recognition of service given, and outside specifically masonic matters it carries no authority.
To quote Burns - " Rank is but the guinea-stamp. The man himself's the Gold ".
A few years ago, the Home Affairs Select Committee, ably agitated by Messrs Mullins and Winnick, declared Freemasonry to be a self seeking secret society incompatible with all forms of public life ( or similar wording ). In consequence, the bandwagonners started demanding declarations of membership from the police, the judiciary, local authorities et al. All were supposed to be voluntary. The MOD issued a DCI " reminding members of the Armed Forces that masonry might be detrimental to the performance of their duties etc etc " .(again I paraphrase ). When asked of precisely what they were being reminded, a lengthy silence ensued.
The United Grand Lodge of England took the MOD to court, on the grounds that it was incompatible with UK and European Law to single out Freemasonry. Why not Rotary, Round Table, Buffaloes, WI, Golf Clubs or any other organisation. UGLE won, MOD paid all costs and the DCI was withdrawn. Over the next year or two, demands from other bodies have been quietly dropped.
And Meadowbank's request that we " move forward " seems a bit pointless. I do not wish to " move forward" . I am happy where I am. I don't need a "way ahead" or any other management-speak expression designed to make me lead my life according to someone else's agenda.
MM