Use of ex-Service rank titles
My brother, who is a civil servant, and works in the MOD is of the opinion that most officers and civil servants retire at their level of incompetency, so it might be best if your retired rank was kept quiet!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: LEEK
Age: 59
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After serving 22yrs in the ranks and now running a successfull business I would certainly suggest that all ex-officers keep their rank quiet. As an ex-forces employer it would only go against his/her application.Unfortunatly out in the real world high spirits and managerial incompetence does'nt cut it.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm an ex lowly Army Subaltern, knew my place when I was in the Army , My NCO's were in charge 
I'm not entitled to neither would I wish to be addressed as Lieut.
My father retired as a Colonel, the only time he uses his rank is at Military functions other wise he is known as Mike or Mr .......
My grandfather retired as a Major he for the rest of his life was referred to as Major Lewis.
As with many careers now it is more about the career rather than the status I am sure the use of ranks once retired will die out naturally.
BTW although Debretts may say Captain ands above it most definitely was Majors and above only who used their ranks upon retirement.
My pet hate though having been brought up within the armed forces were Wives thinking their husbands ranks were somehow theirs.
I now have a good career with a good salary, one of my dearest friends who left the service as a NCO earns at least double what i do in a superb career, we take a lot with us when we leave the armed services one thing however we should leave behind is the ranking structure.
I'm not entitled to neither would I wish to be addressed as Lieut. My father retired as a Colonel, the only time he uses his rank is at Military functions other wise he is known as Mike or Mr .......
My grandfather retired as a Major he for the rest of his life was referred to as Major Lewis.
As with many careers now it is more about the career rather than the status I am sure the use of ranks once retired will die out naturally.
BTW although Debretts may say Captain ands above it most definitely was Majors and above only who used their ranks upon retirement.
My pet hate though having been brought up within the armed forces were Wives thinking their husbands ranks were somehow theirs.
I now have a good career with a good salary, one of my dearest friends who left the service as a NCO earns at least double what i do in a superb career, we take a lot with us when we leave the armed services one thing however we should leave behind is the ranking structure.
Join Date: Jul 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WH, a brilliant piece of deduction on your part. I no longer serve but am content to use my rank in communication with my old Squadrons association in common with every other member. It was a facile comment but I recruit and work with some outstanding chaps and chappesses who are not afraid to admit to once being an officer / NCO and I dont hold the fact that someone has never held a commission ( or was never going to be able to) against them and never would. We get along fine in a complex organisation and we all muck in and get our hands dirty.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flower - dont necessarily blame the wives, remember they were known as wife of /rank/name.
Skytrucker - glad to hear your story but it may not be as common as you think. many, as shown above, believe their service rank ENTITLES them to respect and a position in civilian life. They should be educated about this BEFORE they retire.
Skytrucker - glad to hear your story but it may not be as common as you think. many, as shown above, believe their service rank ENTITLES them to respect and a position in civilian life. They should be educated about this BEFORE they retire.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Not Cambs Anymore
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gus T Breeze
I'm soon to be an ex-military officer and can't wait to be plain old 'Mr'! I think it's pretentious in the extreme to be addressed by one's former military rank. Generally speaking, it appears that those who hang on to their former life have a vastly over-inflated opinion of their importance in the big scheme of things.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: LEEK
Age: 59
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just the reaction I thought I would get, this just demonstrates that some people are just conditioned for life.I also admire the assumption that the lower ranks will are not capable to do anything more worth while than manual labour. Well skytruck if I was a window cleaner I would invite you here for a days work and see if you were capable of getting your hands dirty (if you even know the meaning of the word)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are some home-truths here!
Rank is, indeed, an achievement, but having had two careers, one military and one private, let me confirm what has been alluded to, that there is a very strong opinion in the private sector that the very best the armed services produce leave at the Sqn Ldr level! Just because that promotion pyramid starts to get very narrow at the top end doesn't, necessarily, mean the best people gain the higher rank.It is possible to gain senior rank without ever having made a decision, [and therefore never got one wrong!]. Management in the service is relatively easy because you are dealing with people who, by and large, know the rules and what is expected of them. Outside of the service, that is not always true; doesn't give automatic respect, and you had better learn that fact very quickly. Personally, one of the first things you should drop is any allusion whatsoever to previous rank!
I recently arranged an interview for an ex-RAF Officer and visitor to NZ [and would-be immigrant] with a very successful owner of a company which has had huge success in placing IT specialists.He was told, very directly, that he was employable immediately for his skills and ability, but that he should forget he was ever in the Services!
Rank is, indeed, an achievement, but having had two careers, one military and one private, let me confirm what has been alluded to, that there is a very strong opinion in the private sector that the very best the armed services produce leave at the Sqn Ldr level! Just because that promotion pyramid starts to get very narrow at the top end doesn't, necessarily, mean the best people gain the higher rank.It is possible to gain senior rank without ever having made a decision, [and therefore never got one wrong!]. Management in the service is relatively easy because you are dealing with people who, by and large, know the rules and what is expected of them. Outside of the service, that is not always true; doesn't give automatic respect, and you had better learn that fact very quickly. Personally, one of the first things you should drop is any allusion whatsoever to previous rank!
I recently arranged an interview for an ex-RAF Officer and visitor to NZ [and would-be immigrant] with a very successful owner of a company which has had huge success in placing IT specialists.He was told, very directly, that he was employable immediately for his skills and ability, but that he should forget he was ever in the Services!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: LEEK
Age: 59
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well skytrucker make your mind up, either you get your hands dirty as you stated in your first post or you don't(as in your last!). Your attributes are really beginning to shine now. As I was taught respect is not a rank given right you have to earn it. I bet all you subordinates loved to respect you!!!!But that doesn't matter in the land that time forgot (the officers mess!!)because you could always resort to burning the odd piano or painting the grass orange (all in high spirits eh
).But alas there was always a respectful airman to clean it up for you eh!!
).But alas there was always a respectful airman to clean it up for you eh!!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some fascinating insights here into the world of pride and prejudice.
Do those who recruit people really not appreciate the thorough and expensive training that the services have given their job candidate?
Do ex-military job candidates posess high standards of personal discipline?
Does a service background with rank indicate a history of trustworthyness and reliability?
If the answer to any of those questions is 'No' then I guess the job candidates had better forget their service achievements.
Do those who recruit people really not appreciate the thorough and expensive training that the services have given their job candidate?
Do ex-military job candidates posess high standards of personal discipline?
Does a service background with rank indicate a history of trustworthyness and reliability?
If the answer to any of those questions is 'No' then I guess the job candidates had better forget their service achievements.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soddim - very good questions and I can only speak for my attitudes.
Firstly when recruiting I would recognise the achievments backed by qualifications known and accepted by industry. For example a pilot from the RAF will obviously be a very good operator of aircraft but may not make a good CAT pilot without further training. A Secretarial Branch officer may or may not be a good administrator, it would depend on his qualifications etc. In reality one may have to prove one's self all over again and without the right attitude it may never happen.
Firstly when recruiting I would recognise the achievments backed by qualifications known and accepted by industry. For example a pilot from the RAF will obviously be a very good operator of aircraft but may not make a good CAT pilot without further training. A Secretarial Branch officer may or may not be a good administrator, it would depend on his qualifications etc. In reality one may have to prove one's self all over again and without the right attitude it may never happen.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WorkingHard,
I can see the difficulties of reading across the obvious qualities of the ex-service candidates but, in my experience, one of the strengths of service training is that it is not job-specific. The forces (thanks to the taxpayer) can afford to give a thorough in-depth training that few commercial companies can afford.
I certainly agree that the job candidate has to be ready to adapt to the new task and environment but within the services that frequently happens anyway - hence the need for the in-depth training.
I suspect the few ex-service personnel who leave thinking they know it all have muddied the water somewhat.
I can see the difficulties of reading across the obvious qualities of the ex-service candidates but, in my experience, one of the strengths of service training is that it is not job-specific. The forces (thanks to the taxpayer) can afford to give a thorough in-depth training that few commercial companies can afford.
I certainly agree that the job candidate has to be ready to adapt to the new task and environment but within the services that frequently happens anyway - hence the need for the in-depth training.
I suspect the few ex-service personnel who leave thinking they know it all have muddied the water somewhat.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bertie Thruster
I'm pleased to observe that the drunk fellow in the corner is usually "the Major" but never "the Squadron Leader"
Clearly not been to the Adelphi in Leeds where "the Wing Commander" was a regular fixture...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Do those who recruit people really not appreciate the thorough and expensive training that the services have given their job candidate"?
Actually Soddim, No!
They might accept that you've been where you have, but don't particularly appreciate what that means in term of personal ability. You are quite correct on all those other attributes of being expected to do whatever job you're given and usually get on with it it, but a prospective employer doesn't always appreciate that so you have to show it once you've been hired.
When I first went into the private sector, I found my problem-solving skills were far in advance of anyone else around the table, and would often leave meetings to resolve an issue while it was still under discussion! Most air force officers can think outside the square! It must also be remembered that, while you may come across the occasional rat in the service, they are mere pussycats compared to the civilian version!
Actually Soddim, No!
They might accept that you've been where you have, but don't particularly appreciate what that means in term of personal ability. You are quite correct on all those other attributes of being expected to do whatever job you're given and usually get on with it it, but a prospective employer doesn't always appreciate that so you have to show it once you've been hired.
When I first went into the private sector, I found my problem-solving skills were far in advance of anyone else around the table, and would often leave meetings to resolve an issue while it was still under discussion! Most air force officers can think outside the square! It must also be remembered that, while you may come across the occasional rat in the service, they are mere pussycats compared to the civilian version!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Sam 'n soddim,
I guess we're singing from a similar hymn sheet. My own experience working with a large civilian organisation that has an inextricable link with the military was that ability had to be demonstrated in order to gain credibility. Whilst there was a certain respect for those IN uniform, there was invariably a level suspicion or resentment over the majority of new and generally eager employees that had elected to join the business later in life, armed with an Armed Services pension. There were, of course, exceptions at both ends of the scale: some recognisably talented Service personnel were rightly head-hunted, others of the pompous and dim variety made life more awkward for the majority.
And Sam is right - civilian rats are both more abundant and of an order far, far higher than anything I ever came across in the RAF. More usually, they were found in the more senior positions.
I guess we're singing from a similar hymn sheet. My own experience working with a large civilian organisation that has an inextricable link with the military was that ability had to be demonstrated in order to gain credibility. Whilst there was a certain respect for those IN uniform, there was invariably a level suspicion or resentment over the majority of new and generally eager employees that had elected to join the business later in life, armed with an Armed Services pension. There were, of course, exceptions at both ends of the scale: some recognisably talented Service personnel were rightly head-hunted, others of the pompous and dim variety made life more awkward for the majority.
And Sam is right - civilian rats are both more abundant and of an order far, far higher than anything I ever came across in the RAF. More usually, they were found in the more senior positions.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by edmond64
After serving 22yrs in the ranks and now running a successfull business I would certainly suggest that all ex-officers keep their rank quiet. As an ex-forces employer it would only go against his/her application.Unfortunatly out in the real world high spirits and managerial incompetence does'nt cut it.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Edmond Edmond,
You never managed to shine in the forces did you, and have taken your bitterness to the civvy world where it is easier to get by with bumbling incompetence.
I do however doubt the claim that your business is window cleaning.
You would doubtless cut yourself.
I suspect the cry of "do you want fries with that?" rings in your ears as you sit in your "managerial" position.
You never managed to shine in the forces did you, and have taken your bitterness to the civvy world where it is easier to get by with bumbling incompetence.
I do however doubt the claim that your business is window cleaning.
You would doubtless cut yourself.
I suspect the cry of "do you want fries with that?" rings in your ears as you sit in your "managerial" position.