Trial By Press...Again
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sleaford
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mick and BATS. I hope you haven't misread any of these replies to read that anyone condones any of the behaviour that we have seen. This is about the manner and the balance by which these events are reported. true to say that the British public will have forgotten in the next few days, but what about the disaffected Muslims in our society... will they forget... no. But they do choose to forget and ignore the good stuff that is not reported in such a vociferous fashion. Guys, its all about balance. It is not a matter of condoning or defending the actions of a few men, in any case were any of us there ......... for the most the answer is no!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, but Jacko and Mick are right - if we drop our standards, it deserves to be reported and the method of release is utterly irrelevant. We may not like it but it is the price that we pay for the actions of a misguided few.
Sorry, but Jacko and Mick are right - if we drop our standards, it deserves to be reported and the method of release is utterly irrelevant. We may not like it but it is the price that we pay for the actions of a misguided few.
Sorry but the further the press are away the better. Front pages and money are the only driving force.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: western europe
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ignoring the normal pressures of modern warfare ......
throw enough rocks and urine and faeces at a guy ..... have him face young men and women who approach him with smiles on their faces and then detonate explosives in his face ... have him scrape up the remains of colleques ..... have him read notes from his political leaders from home that he is fighting an honourable war when the mass of the local population can't stand the sight of him .....
Is it any wonder 'some' are driven to the lowest level of behaviour ..... it doesn't surprise me one bit .... nor the behaviour of the Media and their 'joy' in discovering such activities .......
throw enough rocks and urine and faeces at a guy ..... have him face young men and women who approach him with smiles on their faces and then detonate explosives in his face ... have him scrape up the remains of colleques ..... have him read notes from his political leaders from home that he is fighting an honourable war when the mass of the local population can't stand the sight of him .....
Is it any wonder 'some' are driven to the lowest level of behaviour ..... it doesn't surprise me one bit .... nor the behaviour of the Media and their 'joy' in discovering such activities .......
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Henley, Oxfordshire
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A free press or cover-ups what do you want?
Firstly if the press didnt report this sort of thing you wouldnt ever hear about it. Secondly I take deep umbrage at the suggestion that I as a reporter am driven by ensuring my paper earns more money.
Like most reporters I am driven by the desire to get the story, to tell the readers what is going on out there. In short to do my job properly and to the best of my ability. If you dont like it it's your right but the media is doing its job, doing what it is supposed to do. it is not some personal vendetta against the forces. The attempts to out wrongdoing extend right across public life and rightly so.
Nor does the media only write critically about the forces. I have written yards and yards of stuff about how good our forces are and so have my colleagues, even on the leftist papers. At the time these attacks were going on I was midway through an extended magazine article on how good our troops were at dealing with local people at the Provincial Reconstruction Team at Mazar, an article that took two trips six months apart.
I was also reporting contemporaneously about the tough time the troops were having handling Iraqis who were rioting over something over which our troops have no control. It had to be done from a distance. There was a lot of good stuff going on in southern Iraq at the time but the MoD kept the media away. Still some reporters managed to get out there and report it.
But if someone does this then it has to be reported too. The suggestion that we should take this to the MoD and then wait for them to let us print the story is naive frankly. The MoD would cover it up and deal with it quietly. The UK military courts system is open only in name.
It isnt nice to hear about this stuff but it has to be reported if anyone is going to do anything to change things. To my mind that is what is critical here. The people who want to attack our boys in Iraq don't need an excuse they will do it anyway. As I said before, the idea that this type of behaviour is a one-off is blown away by the evidence. We need to stop saying 'oh its only a few what are you moaning about' and start getting things back to a position where this type of behaviour is not even contemplated yet alone tolerated
Like most reporters I am driven by the desire to get the story, to tell the readers what is going on out there. In short to do my job properly and to the best of my ability. If you dont like it it's your right but the media is doing its job, doing what it is supposed to do. it is not some personal vendetta against the forces. The attempts to out wrongdoing extend right across public life and rightly so.
Nor does the media only write critically about the forces. I have written yards and yards of stuff about how good our forces are and so have my colleagues, even on the leftist papers. At the time these attacks were going on I was midway through an extended magazine article on how good our troops were at dealing with local people at the Provincial Reconstruction Team at Mazar, an article that took two trips six months apart.
I was also reporting contemporaneously about the tough time the troops were having handling Iraqis who were rioting over something over which our troops have no control. It had to be done from a distance. There was a lot of good stuff going on in southern Iraq at the time but the MoD kept the media away. Still some reporters managed to get out there and report it.
But if someone does this then it has to be reported too. The suggestion that we should take this to the MoD and then wait for them to let us print the story is naive frankly. The MoD would cover it up and deal with it quietly. The UK military courts system is open only in name.
It isnt nice to hear about this stuff but it has to be reported if anyone is going to do anything to change things. To my mind that is what is critical here. The people who want to attack our boys in Iraq don't need an excuse they will do it anyway. As I said before, the idea that this type of behaviour is a one-off is blown away by the evidence. We need to stop saying 'oh its only a few what are you moaning about' and start getting things back to a position where this type of behaviour is not even contemplated yet alone tolerated
A free press or cover-ups what do you want?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Muscat, Oman
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not offer the vid to the MOD for investigation with the proviso of a scoop whichever way it turns out, and a promise of revelation with an even more damining story if it's covered up. If they renege on the deal, you have a signed contract so sue them and "publish and be damned".
As for the video itself, I've only seen the highlights on Sky. Does anyone know what happened during the half hour before it was filmed. Not condoning, but after the comments about the RMP incident and others, I don't have any idea what would make them react like that other than prior provocation.
I now live and work in a Muslim society, and a very tolerant one as it happens. They are all disappointed and can't believe that this is the norm for the British Forces. But they are subject to selective reporting as, when I pointed out how long ago this had hapened, they all throught it was filmed yesterday. The universal comment is "we could believe it if it was the Americans, but not the Brits". They are all happy with the idea that it is the small minority, if, in fact, it is for real after the Mirror fiasco.
So, it seems, we are still the most popular nationality to deliver a kicking. Sorry, that was in bad taste!
As for the video itself, I've only seen the highlights on Sky. Does anyone know what happened during the half hour before it was filmed. Not condoning, but after the comments about the RMP incident and others, I don't have any idea what would make them react like that other than prior provocation.
I now live and work in a Muslim society, and a very tolerant one as it happens. They are all disappointed and can't believe that this is the norm for the British Forces. But they are subject to selective reporting as, when I pointed out how long ago this had hapened, they all throught it was filmed yesterday. The universal comment is "we could believe it if it was the Americans, but not the Brits". They are all happy with the idea that it is the small minority, if, in fact, it is for real after the Mirror fiasco.
So, it seems, we are still the most popular nationality to deliver a kicking. Sorry, that was in bad taste!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Muscat, Oman
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not offer the vid to the MOD for investigation with the proviso of a scoop whichever way it turns out, and a promise of revelation with an even more damining story if it's covered up. If they renege on the deal, you have a signed contract so sue them and "publish and be damned".
As for the video itself, I've only seen the highlights on Sky. Does anyone know what happened during the half hour before it was filmed. Not condoning, but after the comments about the RMP incident and others, I don't have any idea what would make them react like that other than prior provocation.
I now live and work in a Muslim society, and a very tolerant one as it happens. They are all disappointed and can't believe that this is the norm for the British Forces. But they are subject to selective reporting as, when I pointed out how long ago this had hapened, they all throught it was filmed yesterday. The universal comment is "we could believe it if it was the Americans, but not the Brits". They are all happy with the idea that it is the small minority, if, in fact, it is for real after the Mirror fiasco.
So, it seems, we are still the most popular nationality to deliver a kicking. Sorry, that was in bad taste!
As for the video itself, I've only seen the highlights on Sky. Does anyone know what happened during the half hour before it was filmed. Not condoning, but after the comments about the RMP incident and others, I don't have any idea what would make them react like that other than prior provocation.
I now live and work in a Muslim society, and a very tolerant one as it happens. They are all disappointed and can't believe that this is the norm for the British Forces. But they are subject to selective reporting as, when I pointed out how long ago this had hapened, they all throught it was filmed yesterday. The universal comment is "we could believe it if it was the Americans, but not the Brits". They are all happy with the idea that it is the small minority, if, in fact, it is for real after the Mirror fiasco.
So, it seems, we are still the most popular nationality to deliver a kicking. Sorry, that was in bad taste!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally-speaking, I wish the bleeding-heart commentators and the sh*t-stirring media would grow-up and congratulate our shamelessly misused servicemen for kicking the sh*t out of the little bastards. Maybe they'll think twice about throwing stones at people next time? On the other hand, maybe they wont?! Who knows? Who cares? Bring our servicemen home and leave these peasants to it. As one very wise commentator said a while back, the whole nation of Iraq isn't worth the life of even one British serviceman.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mick,
Thank you for your post - I don't subscribe to the idea that all hacks are soulless monsters out to tear the Armed Forces apart. However, some papers could certainly do a lot better than spouting bile one day and pouring roses on us the next.
I forget who mentioned the BBC as an example of a horribly biased organisation that wants nothing more than to hurt the military. Having watched the Ten O'Clock News this evening, I was more than impressed with the BBC. They aired the scenes on the video up to the moment when the News of the World's footage starts. It shows a crowd of Iraqi youths attacking a British military compound after it has been mortared. Troops rush forwards to disperse the crowd, and a few of them capture some youths. Now faced with the people who have just tried to kill them, the troops are rough but efficient.
It is after this that a small group of soldiers take some of the youths into a separate area - away from the rest of the platoon and therefore out of sight and control - and assault some of the youths. The commentary on the video is, frankly, sickening.
The point to the BBC's airing of the main part of the video was to put the attack into context. They spent 10 minutes interviewing people to find out - surprise, surprise - that being mortared and stoned is to say the least a tad annoying, and likely to bring out the worse in us all. This does not excuse the atrocious behaviour of the soldiers shown in the NotW's footage, but the BBC went to great lengths to contrast that behaviour with the behaviour of the majority of British troops.
The sad fact is, no amount of mitigation is going to prevent a backlash. After Piers "Morgan" Moron published hoaxed photos of British "abuse" a few years back, the backlash was severe. Despite the fact that the story was a pack of lies.
I fear the NotW - perhaps acting altrusitically - has lit a tinderbox now. They did not show the video in its full context, choosing to concentrate on the harsher side instead of pointing out that not a single shot was fired in what must have been a terrifying and stressful situation. THAT is what should p!$$ every decent journalist off.
t_e
Mr McLelland - I don't know if you're serving at the moment, but you sure as hell don't speak for me.
Thank you for your post - I don't subscribe to the idea that all hacks are soulless monsters out to tear the Armed Forces apart. However, some papers could certainly do a lot better than spouting bile one day and pouring roses on us the next.
I forget who mentioned the BBC as an example of a horribly biased organisation that wants nothing more than to hurt the military. Having watched the Ten O'Clock News this evening, I was more than impressed with the BBC. They aired the scenes on the video up to the moment when the News of the World's footage starts. It shows a crowd of Iraqi youths attacking a British military compound after it has been mortared. Troops rush forwards to disperse the crowd, and a few of them capture some youths. Now faced with the people who have just tried to kill them, the troops are rough but efficient.
It is after this that a small group of soldiers take some of the youths into a separate area - away from the rest of the platoon and therefore out of sight and control - and assault some of the youths. The commentary on the video is, frankly, sickening.
The point to the BBC's airing of the main part of the video was to put the attack into context. They spent 10 minutes interviewing people to find out - surprise, surprise - that being mortared and stoned is to say the least a tad annoying, and likely to bring out the worse in us all. This does not excuse the atrocious behaviour of the soldiers shown in the NotW's footage, but the BBC went to great lengths to contrast that behaviour with the behaviour of the majority of British troops.
The sad fact is, no amount of mitigation is going to prevent a backlash. After Piers "Morgan" Moron published hoaxed photos of British "abuse" a few years back, the backlash was severe. Despite the fact that the story was a pack of lies.
I fear the NotW - perhaps acting altrusitically - has lit a tinderbox now. They did not show the video in its full context, choosing to concentrate on the harsher side instead of pointing out that not a single shot was fired in what must have been a terrifying and stressful situation. THAT is what should p!$$ every decent journalist off.
t_e
Mr McLelland - I don't know if you're serving at the moment, but you sure as hell don't speak for me.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Henley, Oxfordshire
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
News of World and MoD
Just one thing more before I shut up. I wouldnt jump to conclusions that the News of the World didnt go to the MoD and give them time to track the cpl down given the speed of the arrest.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jesus.H.Christ.
I do not condone what these chimps did but it was 2 years ago. Therefore, the only reason to release it now is to damage the op in Afghanistan, and sell newspapers.
I have been on the recieving end of an attack by Muslim youths and it was f
ing scarey I can tell you. Had they got hold of me they would have torn my head off. Had i got hold of them i would have done the same.
This was either a political initiative or a crude attempt to make money from within the regiment.
Jackinocko, read the autocue and keep your opinions to yourself. You are there to report news, not make it.
Maybe we should have issued ASBO's to these youths, sent social workers and showered them with benefits, then the real soldiers could have concentrated on catching Iraqui citizens breaking the speed limit.
That way, they would be just like us.
I am staggered that we send the fine young men and women to do Bliars bidding in Iraq, only to be condemned by the actions of the few, under difficult circumstances and yet Robert Peels Unarmed Militia (the useless British Police Service), at the same time, provide protection to those who would harm us, and threaten those who complain.
I do not condone what these chimps did but it was 2 years ago. Therefore, the only reason to release it now is to damage the op in Afghanistan, and sell newspapers.
I have been on the recieving end of an attack by Muslim youths and it was f
ing scarey I can tell you. Had they got hold of me they would have torn my head off. Had i got hold of them i would have done the same.This was either a political initiative or a crude attempt to make money from within the regiment.
Jackinocko, read the autocue and keep your opinions to yourself. You are there to report news, not make it.
Maybe we should have issued ASBO's to these youths, sent social workers and showered them with benefits, then the real soldiers could have concentrated on catching Iraqui citizens breaking the speed limit.
That way, they would be just like us.
I am staggered that we send the fine young men and women to do Bliars bidding in Iraq, only to be condemned by the actions of the few, under difficult circumstances and yet Robert Peels Unarmed Militia (the useless British Police Service), at the same time, provide protection to those who would harm us, and threaten those who complain.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yet again the British Press appears intent on putting our soldiers in danger by publishing these photos. As is normal, they appear to have been taken totally out of context. in order to display the press's idea that all soldiers are brutal and uncontrolled. It is rather convenient that the events leading up to these images is not recorded, thus preventing us from deciding, for ouselves. whether the events shown had any just cause. Worst actions have been seen on television, meted out by various Police Forces in Europe, during periods of football violence or street demonstrations in Paris.
The responsibity of the Press is to tell the truth but also to ensure that their actions do not inflame a situation. In the present climate, especially following the actions shown around the world, due to the publication of a cartoon, then I feel the present situation should have been avoided at all costs. It shows that the press have scant regard for the safety of British soldiers, who are presently overstretched, sent to police the world and expect nothing other than to be stabbed in the back by their own countrymen - and all in the name of selling newspapers.
Whilst not condoning any acts of violence when they are not necessary, I do believe that sometimes events necessitate response. It seems strange to me that this very Regiment, attacked and set on fire by Iraqi mobs. recieve a small mention one day but, following this video, are villified by overblown coverage.
Perhaps the time has come to pull all our troops out of these areas, where they are intent on killing the own people, and telling the whole lot of them to sort themselves out.
The responsibity of the Press is to tell the truth but also to ensure that their actions do not inflame a situation. In the present climate, especially following the actions shown around the world, due to the publication of a cartoon, then I feel the present situation should have been avoided at all costs. It shows that the press have scant regard for the safety of British soldiers, who are presently overstretched, sent to police the world and expect nothing other than to be stabbed in the back by their own countrymen - and all in the name of selling newspapers.
Whilst not condoning any acts of violence when they are not necessary, I do believe that sometimes events necessitate response. It seems strange to me that this very Regiment, attacked and set on fire by Iraqi mobs. recieve a small mention one day but, following this video, are villified by overblown coverage.
Perhaps the time has come to pull all our troops out of these areas, where they are intent on killing the own people, and telling the whole lot of them to sort themselves out.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eraser, perhaps you might care to note the...er, first words in my posting?
Oh, and what "backlash" exactly? You mean they might start throwing bricks or delivering suicide bombs? Oh yeah, I forgot, they were doing that already, doh!
I wonder why it is, that we're incapable of simply dealing with these people in the manner to which they are accustomed and, ultimately, the only kind of response that they ever understand?
As Dragon has just suggested previously, the time has indeed come (it came ages ago) where we should leave these people to sort themselves out, indeed we ought to have never got involved in the first place. The notion that sending even more British servicemen out to Afghanistan is going to prevent so much as one terrorist attack is, of course, entirely specious.
We don't have the resources to embark on international crusades, and if George W wants to save the world for his Religious Right, then let him get on with it, without dragging us along with him. The Ministry of Defence ought to ponder on the definition of the term "defence" and ask where, exactly, sending servicemen to these God-forsaken countries has ever saved so much as one British life. Unless I'm very much mistaken, it's actually killed far too many?
Oh, and what "backlash" exactly? You mean they might start throwing bricks or delivering suicide bombs? Oh yeah, I forgot, they were doing that already, doh!
I wonder why it is, that we're incapable of simply dealing with these people in the manner to which they are accustomed and, ultimately, the only kind of response that they ever understand?
As Dragon has just suggested previously, the time has indeed come (it came ages ago) where we should leave these people to sort themselves out, indeed we ought to have never got involved in the first place. The notion that sending even more British servicemen out to Afghanistan is going to prevent so much as one terrorist attack is, of course, entirely specious.
We don't have the resources to embark on international crusades, and if George W wants to save the world for his Religious Right, then let him get on with it, without dragging us along with him. The Ministry of Defence ought to ponder on the definition of the term "defence" and ask where, exactly, sending servicemen to these God-forsaken countries has ever saved so much as one British life. Unless I'm very much mistaken, it's actually killed far too many?
Dragon
Yes, events do lead to responses.
Had the troops been fired on, I would expect them to return fire. End of on that score.
I wouldn't expect them to carry out any revenge shootings after the fact though.
Our troops were stoned: had they used baton rounds or mounded a 'stick charge' back at them- ok.
But that's not the same as grabbing a few for revenge.
Video like this kinda stops me pushing my firm view that British troops are the best in the world. And i'm ex-RAF!
CG
Yes, events do lead to responses.
Had the troops been fired on, I would expect them to return fire. End of on that score.
I wouldn't expect them to carry out any revenge shootings after the fact though.
Our troops were stoned: had they used baton rounds or mounded a 'stick charge' back at them- ok.
But that's not the same as grabbing a few for revenge.
Video like this kinda stops me pushing my firm view that British troops are the best in the world. And i'm ex-RAF!
CG
Tim,
Your point, for the special needs amongst us is?
Mine was that a response is to be expected in a given circumstance. This one wasn't appropriate.
CG
Your point, for the special needs amongst us is?
Mine was that a response is to be expected in a given circumstance. This one wasn't appropriate.
CG
Video like this kinda stops me pushing my firm view that British troops are the best in the world. And i'm ex-RAF!
I don't condone what they did (well not all of it..), but I do know what they were going through. Also bear in mind petrol bombers were fair game for a long time in the Province.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Puts me in mind of the aftermath of the Lee Clegg affair. 'We'll stand behind you, boys' came the cry from the MoD. The when it came to the crunch, he was left hung out to dry.
Seem to remember that those on guard with guns and one up the spout vowed to shoot IN THE GENERAL DIRECTION of someone threatening, iaw the green [or whatever colour] card. That meant aiming to miss by a wide berth - just close enough to frighten the little sh*t, but avoiding all the subsequent court proceedings that would have resulted if they had hit it.
How soon before we get to the stage where commanders will insist on a legal man in the field to advise BEFORE a nasty happens? If the JAG programme on SKY is in any way slightly accurate legally, then the Americans already do it. Wouldn't you just love to have a lawyer in full combats [and fully trained] going out with you on patrol? Wouldn't it focus their minds wonderfully into the reality of real combat, instead of the present situation in their comfy armchairs with their perception of what it's like?
It might colour their arguments in court somewhat...
Seem to remember that those on guard with guns and one up the spout vowed to shoot IN THE GENERAL DIRECTION of someone threatening, iaw the green [or whatever colour] card. That meant aiming to miss by a wide berth - just close enough to frighten the little sh*t, but avoiding all the subsequent court proceedings that would have resulted if they had hit it.
How soon before we get to the stage where commanders will insist on a legal man in the field to advise BEFORE a nasty happens? If the JAG programme on SKY is in any way slightly accurate legally, then the Americans already do it. Wouldn't you just love to have a lawyer in full combats [and fully trained] going out with you on patrol? Wouldn't it focus their minds wonderfully into the reality of real combat, instead of the present situation in their comfy armchairs with their perception of what it's like?
It might colour their arguments in court somewhat...
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
So how much of last week's 'restraint" shown by the UK Press in not publishing the offensive Muslim cartoons was genuine, and how much was the result of an off the record D Notice chat from one of Tony's spooks? Restraint my ar$e! They (the press) simply do not know the meaning of the word, and certainly not when the opportunity to exploit and condemn presents itself, regardless of the reprehensible actions of those neanderthal knuckle draggers on film. Makes you proud to be British.