Trial By Press...Again
Aw...gee...some brick throwing...grenade tossing...dickweed got kicked in the balls....Gosh! How terrible!
Timex
Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time. That's where I formed the opinion that British troops are the best. Working with other nato troops in RAFG solidified the opinion permanently.
CG
Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time. That's where I formed the opinion that British troops are the best. Working with other nato troops in RAFG solidified the opinion permanently.
CG
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"Tommy this and Tommy that..."
“We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barracks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barracks don’t grow into plaster saints.”
Tommy – Kipling
But single men in barracks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barracks don’t grow into plaster saints.”
Tommy – Kipling
I cannot see any justification for the use by politicians and Generals of our soldiers as targets for Iraqi thugs. The sole purpose of their presence in Iraq seems to be to indulge Blair’s vanity. Any pretence that that they are there to train and reinforce Iraqi security forces has been exposed by the Baghdad Provincial Council’s announced withdrawal of cooperation with the army.
I believe it is time the British authorities told the Iraqis that they will amend our soldiers’ Rules of Engagement so that they may counter any violence by Iraqi thugs, including stone-throwing, with lethal force. If the Iraqis object, or if our “bleeding hearts” lawyers and judges think that such action would be “disproportionate”, we should withdraw our cooperation and bring the troops home. Now.
What a load of cobblers you guys are talking.
Here is the video. See for yourself what a fine upstanding bunch your comrades are. Dishonourbale discharge for the lot of them including the platoon commander because this is the sort of behaviour that makes people become militants.
As I said, watch the video before you talk more garbage.
http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx
Here is the video. See for yourself what a fine upstanding bunch your comrades are. Dishonourbale discharge for the lot of them including the platoon commander because this is the sort of behaviour that makes people become militants.
As I said, watch the video before you talk more garbage.
http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx
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Sunfish.
The conduct does seem to be deplorable, however.
I have not, and I suspect neither have you, seen the whole unedited video including the lead up to this incident.
I do not know what these Iraqis had done, if in fact anything at all.
I was not there, and I would hesitate to make a judgement on the behaviour of a bunch of young lads with possibly very high adrenaline/stress levels.
At the end of the day, they got a bit of a kicking. We have all had one at some time and they'll get over it.
Allegedly the crowd was throwing grenades.
I don't know about you but I would consider shooting someone who tried to kill me with a grenade an appropriate response. A light kicking seems a small punishment if subsequent investigation shows that grenades were in fact thrown.
The conduct does seem to be deplorable, however.
I have not, and I suspect neither have you, seen the whole unedited video including the lead up to this incident.
I do not know what these Iraqis had done, if in fact anything at all.
I was not there, and I would hesitate to make a judgement on the behaviour of a bunch of young lads with possibly very high adrenaline/stress levels.
At the end of the day, they got a bit of a kicking. We have all had one at some time and they'll get over it.
Allegedly the crowd was throwing grenades.
I don't know about you but I would consider shooting someone who tried to kill me with a grenade an appropriate response. A light kicking seems a small punishment if subsequent investigation shows that grenades were in fact thrown.
Tourist, with the greatest of respect, if grenades had or were being thrown, I would imagine that the rules of engagement would have allowed fire. Furthermore, to go chasing after guys throwing grenades is suicidal.
The damage done by this is not to the reputation of the service over here, it's on the ground in Iraq. There would have to be a full scale civil affairs program going on, and this sort of stupid incident affects the success of that program.
To put it another way, what if this incident is the final straw for some kid to start jihad and become a suicide bomber?
The damage done by this is not to the reputation of the service over here, it's on the ground in Iraq. There would have to be a full scale civil affairs program going on, and this sort of stupid incident affects the success of that program.
To put it another way, what if this incident is the final straw for some kid to start jihad and become a suicide bomber?
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Sunfish we've all seen the video and guess what - most of us think it's just about time that our servicemen dealt with these people in the kind of way that they understand.
Despite the efforts of the press to try and tell us what to think, once again, common sense seems to have prevailed, and while the politicians wring their hands in fake concern, the rest of us just keep thinking "about time too - they got what they deserve".
We're talking about people that throw bricks, fire bombs, deliver suicide bombs, and saw-off people's heads. They ain't worth tuppence; no right-minded person gives a damn, and it's gratifying to see that despite all the usual media and government-led advice on what we're supposed to think and feel, the typical guy in the street thinks it's a classic case of rough justice.
Call me old fashioned. but I'm with our servicemen on this one, all the way.
Despite the efforts of the press to try and tell us what to think, once again, common sense seems to have prevailed, and while the politicians wring their hands in fake concern, the rest of us just keep thinking "about time too - they got what they deserve".
We're talking about people that throw bricks, fire bombs, deliver suicide bombs, and saw-off people's heads. They ain't worth tuppence; no right-minded person gives a damn, and it's gratifying to see that despite all the usual media and government-led advice on what we're supposed to think and feel, the typical guy in the street thinks it's a classic case of rough justice.
Call me old fashioned. but I'm with our servicemen on this one, all the way.
And when another mob of kids throw stones and soldiers race out looking for someone to hit, only to detonate a car bomb, what will you think then Tim?
Should have left it to the Iraqi police.
Should have left it to the Iraqi police.
[QUOTE]Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time. [QUOTE]
Which although a good job doesn't put you in the middle of the Falls road or downtown Basra in the middle of a Riot. Which is the point I was making, as they say walk a mile in his / her shoes.
Which although a good job doesn't put you in the middle of the Falls road or downtown Basra in the middle of a Riot. Which is the point I was making, as they say walk a mile in his / her shoes.
As we have now all had the opportunity to view the moments leading up to this "beating" (thank you BBC) it shows the troops under attack from either grenade or mortar. So a few little scrotes got a bit of a kicking - so what!
The News of the World should be the ones being vilified here. This "exclusive", a 2 and a bit year old exclusive, is nothing more than a way to sell papers. Just like the Mirror and the back of the truck incident. When will these (so called) journalists realise that all they are doing is feeding the insurgency, damaging the good that our troops have achieved and promoting the chances of suicide bombings in the UK?
The fact that the Iraqi youths concerned didn't come forward 2 years ago to complain of their treatment speaks volumes! Perhaps they accepted that they deserved a bit of a kicking and, apart from the kick in the balls, there isn't much more than fisticuffs shown on the video.
This is not about 'journalism and getting a story' its about selling newspapers. Nothing more and nothing less. Unfortunately these journalists (and I do not refer to all journalists) do not think through their actions and the possible repercussions.
At a time when the UK military is about to deploy to the most lawless part of Afghanistan, whilst still trying to support the Iraqi authorities in the south of Iraq, I hope that the death of any British serviceman from rioting or suicide bomb in either theatre leads to the "journalists" in question doing the right thing. I have my own views on what that should be but I wont hold my breath!!
Personally I think the time has come to ban journalists from all military installations and from op theatres - you cannot trust them! I know I am tarring them all with the same brush, but that is what they do to the UK military every time they publish events such as this; particularly when they fail to publish the FULL story!
The News of the World should be the ones being vilified here. This "exclusive", a 2 and a bit year old exclusive, is nothing more than a way to sell papers. Just like the Mirror and the back of the truck incident. When will these (so called) journalists realise that all they are doing is feeding the insurgency, damaging the good that our troops have achieved and promoting the chances of suicide bombings in the UK?
The fact that the Iraqi youths concerned didn't come forward 2 years ago to complain of their treatment speaks volumes! Perhaps they accepted that they deserved a bit of a kicking and, apart from the kick in the balls, there isn't much more than fisticuffs shown on the video.
This is not about 'journalism and getting a story' its about selling newspapers. Nothing more and nothing less. Unfortunately these journalists (and I do not refer to all journalists) do not think through their actions and the possible repercussions.
At a time when the UK military is about to deploy to the most lawless part of Afghanistan, whilst still trying to support the Iraqi authorities in the south of Iraq, I hope that the death of any British serviceman from rioting or suicide bomb in either theatre leads to the "journalists" in question doing the right thing. I have my own views on what that should be but I wont hold my breath!!
Personally I think the time has come to ban journalists from all military installations and from op theatres - you cannot trust them! I know I am tarring them all with the same brush, but that is what they do to the UK military every time they publish events such as this; particularly when they fail to publish the FULL story!
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It does illustrate something which goes rather wider than this particular story. The media (particularly newspapers) have long-since reached a stage where simple reporting of facts is no longer their primarly interest. Newspapers are now more concerned with setting their own agendas, and "interpreting" news for their readers, which effectively means they tell the reader what they ought to think. Television news isn't quite so bad, but even they have drifted into this kind of position, so that (for example) they can't refer to the now-infamous footage of the solders beating the Iraqi brats without calling it "shocking footage", as if we'd be incapable of deciding whether it was in fact shocking or merely understandable, without their advice.
However, it's encouraging to see that the Great British Public isn't quite so stupid as the media often imagines. For example, the long and tedious Michael Barrymore saga began with the Sun trying to pin a murder charge on the entertainer, essentially because he had "come out" as being gay, and the Sun evidently thought this was a sufficiently serious crime to have him expelled from television. Through a process of ferocious mud-slinging and colourful language, they managed to reach a position where people were actually starting to believe a completely different set of facts to those which were the truth.
But fascinatingly, when Barrymore appeared on the recent Celebrity Big Brother show, he received a hugely warm response when he went in, won the runner-up position in the show, and received a standing ovation on the first TV show he did the following week. And what did The Sun do about it? They evidently decided that despite their poison, their best bet was to drop the "shamed entertainer Barrymore" line of two week's previously, and pay him for his "story" and arrange a meeting with the father of the guy who was found dead in Barrymore's pool!
Interesting isn't it, how a newspaper can suddenly shift through 180 degrees, when they finally realise that even with all the vitriol at their disposal, the public managed to see right through it.
The same situation may well apply with the "shocking footage" of the Iraqi thugs being beaten. Despite the newspapers and other media whipping themselves into a frenzy of supposed outrage, one suspects that the vast majority of right-thinking people in this country are quietly thinking to themselves that this sort of reaction has been going on all along, and that it's entirely understandable and justified.
However, it's encouraging to see that the Great British Public isn't quite so stupid as the media often imagines. For example, the long and tedious Michael Barrymore saga began with the Sun trying to pin a murder charge on the entertainer, essentially because he had "come out" as being gay, and the Sun evidently thought this was a sufficiently serious crime to have him expelled from television. Through a process of ferocious mud-slinging and colourful language, they managed to reach a position where people were actually starting to believe a completely different set of facts to those which were the truth.
But fascinatingly, when Barrymore appeared on the recent Celebrity Big Brother show, he received a hugely warm response when he went in, won the runner-up position in the show, and received a standing ovation on the first TV show he did the following week. And what did The Sun do about it? They evidently decided that despite their poison, their best bet was to drop the "shamed entertainer Barrymore" line of two week's previously, and pay him for his "story" and arrange a meeting with the father of the guy who was found dead in Barrymore's pool!
Interesting isn't it, how a newspaper can suddenly shift through 180 degrees, when they finally realise that even with all the vitriol at their disposal, the public managed to see right through it.
The same situation may well apply with the "shocking footage" of the Iraqi thugs being beaten. Despite the newspapers and other media whipping themselves into a frenzy of supposed outrage, one suspects that the vast majority of right-thinking people in this country are quietly thinking to themselves that this sort of reaction has been going on all along, and that it's entirely understandable and justified.
Sunfish,
Exactly what does make "militants"?
Bin Liner said it was the presence of US Troops in Saudi. The very troops who were protecting Saudi and retrieving Kuwait from the Iraqi's.
You reckon we might have a problem with "militants" long before the British Army ever showed up in Basra?
The bombers in London did not know about this video when they did their bombing attacks....what provoked them?
I suggest to you Sunfish....you do not have a grasp of the real. Militants come from the little ones that are being taught hate from their first days as bobbing heads in school. Videos taken in Basra have nothing to do with that.
Exactly what does make "militants"?
Bin Liner said it was the presence of US Troops in Saudi. The very troops who were protecting Saudi and retrieving Kuwait from the Iraqi's.
You reckon we might have a problem with "militants" long before the British Army ever showed up in Basra?
The bombers in London did not know about this video when they did their bombing attacks....what provoked them?
I suggest to you Sunfish....you do not have a grasp of the real. Militants come from the little ones that are being taught hate from their first days as bobbing heads in school. Videos taken in Basra have nothing to do with that.
Having been too close to the odd riot in NI, it's normal SOP. Identify those egging the others on, send a snatch squad out to grab them, then give them a good kicking. May I suggest that without the cameraman's "commentary", there wouldn't be so much of a fuss?
Last edited by MightyGem; 16th Feb 2006 at 17:16.
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Storytelling or reporting?
For me, it's not the fact that the article was published that was the problem. Yes it is a newsworthy story. However, it was the exceptionally biased and sensationalist manner in which it was reported. The commentary was inflammatory and the facts only partially apparent. Call me naive but I thought quality journalists only stated facts. Save opinions and half-truths for the opinion and letters pages.
The Al-Qaeda marketing department must be having a field day...
The Al-Qaeda marketing department must be having a field day...
Sas, there are plenty of "militants' around, always have been at least since Guy Fawkes time. But why add to their ranks by bashing kids, and then having the stupidity to have someone film it?
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As has been suggested previously, that's flawed thinking, as it implies that "bashing kids" (which wasn't exactly what was filmed in any case, was it?) add to the "ranks of militants." Of course, it doesn't add to these ranks, as the militants (or at least the type of person that thinks it's reasonable to throw missiles, shoot people, deliver bombs and slit people's throats) already existed, and if the piece of film did anything negative, it was merely to give these people something tangible that they can spout about to people that are, of course, gagging to hear it in the first place.
But of course, even this is of no consequence if our media had the guts to simply report the footage, show it, comment that there is absolutely no indication to suggest that the commentary has been provided by anyone other than a newspaper hack, and that it's a simple illustration of rough justice being handed-out to people that entirely and unreservedly deserved it.
But of course, even this is of no consequence if our media had the guts to simply report the footage, show it, comment that there is absolutely no indication to suggest that the commentary has been provided by anyone other than a newspaper hack, and that it's a simple illustration of rough justice being handed-out to people that entirely and unreservedly deserved it.
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[QUOTE=timex][QUOTE]Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time.
Well timex you are in fact wrong. Most aircrew were given at least a few opportunities to go out on patrol in South Armagh. Trust me this is NOT a pleasant experience but nowhere near like being shot at, petrol bombed etc. Even although NIBAT1 was a nasty place its not as bad as Iraq. Believe me, even now i wouldnt want to go on patrol in NI, never mind Iraq.
Which although a good job doesn't put you in the middle of the Falls road or downtown Basra in the middle of a Riot. Which is the point I was making, as they say walk a mile in his / her shoes.