Air Training Corps
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My point, although poorly articulated, is that the uniform of the RAF is that of a fighting service and as such the right to wear it is earned and I do not believe that members of the ACO with no previous military service have earned that right
Perhaps if ATC Adult NCOs and VR(T) Officers that haden't served wore a disk behind the capbadge? It might help identify some of the walts and wannabies, but as they say, some of the biggest choppers in the ATC are ex-mob
Swinderby c1983 - think 'Bad Lads Army' but with more swearing and random acts of violence
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: in a house
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah so does this mean that gliders owned by the RAFGSA/RNGA/AGA are 'military' aircraft too?
Are you referring to VGS personnel here or VR(T) in general? Either way I cannot image for a second an individual holding a VR(T) commission having his commission transferred to the active reserve for temporary mobilisation unless he/she has a specific skill that the RAF could utilise in a commissioned capacity.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: around and about
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but as they say, some of the biggest choppers in the ATC are ex-mob
Like the idea of a clear differentiation between ex regulars and the rest, mind you rememberance parade is usually a laugh when Fg Off Smegead VR(T) rolls up with a chest full of scrap metal and the rest can only muster a cadet forces thingymajig, the RAFA boys and girls attitude changes immediately
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Between a Rock and a Hard Place
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by NightFlit
Obviously (using the full abilities of common sence) we would need some form of all out war before steps to be taken. But I understand it is possible.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I shared a room at Cranwell with a guy who was ex-VR (T) and I was hit with snippets like 'things are a lot different once your in' and 'I already have my comission' he even asked for increased seniority based on time with the ATC - I was in the scouts, does that count?
Don't get me wrong the VR (T) and ATC do a great job, but there should be some demarkation.
Don't get me wrong the VR (T) and ATC do a great job, but there should be some demarkation.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DK338
Not experienced much of that, however have experienced the 'Oh your RAF service doesn't count for much' attitude from plenty of VR(T) choppers.
Originally Posted by DK338
Like the idea of a clear differentiation between ex regulars and the rest, mind you rememberance parade is usually a laugh when Fg Off Smegead VR(T) rolls up with a chest full of scrap metal and the rest can only muster a cadet forces thingymajig, the RAFA boys and girls attitude changes immediately
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UP NORTH
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Volunteers commissioned in the RAFVR(T) do a great job guys. I've met many of them and they put in hours of work for the good of the Corps. Yes there are smegeads as well, in particular associated with one well discussed VGS in Hampshire, but hey, this group is an exception who should not be used to judge the rest of us-just a few who give us a bad name.
Whilst not wishing to drag this thread on any further than the Regulars would want, I have to agree with mgdaviso's point. Despite being ex-AAC, my local ATC Squadron welcomed me with open arms. Each member of the adult staff have shown me nothing but courtesy, and seem to genuinely appreciate the input and insight on Service life, ethos and values that I bring. The cadets equally, if not more so.
As a cadet in the mid-1970s, the vast majority of the adult staff had served at some stage - my first OC was a former Spitfire driver from the BoB - and we looked up to these people for inspiration. Since so few of the population of the UK are exposed to Service life these days, it is no wonder that the ACO at Squadron level has to accept those with a 'civilian-only' background. Those with whom it has been my pleasure to work would want the ATC to retain its links with the RAF, lest it become just another youth club.
Now, could we get on with providing potential recruits to the Services with some useful skills, and drop the sniping?
Edited for spelling, as my caffeine autoject misfired.
As a cadet in the mid-1970s, the vast majority of the adult staff had served at some stage - my first OC was a former Spitfire driver from the BoB - and we looked up to these people for inspiration. Since so few of the population of the UK are exposed to Service life these days, it is no wonder that the ACO at Squadron level has to accept those with a 'civilian-only' background. Those with whom it has been my pleasure to work would want the ATC to retain its links with the RAF, lest it become just another youth club.
Now, could we get on with providing potential recruits to the Services with some useful skills, and drop the sniping?
Edited for spelling, as my caffeine autoject misfired.
Last edited by diginagain; 12th May 2006 at 07:12.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm you know, rather than moan about the staff of the ATC becoming less and less ex mil, and therefore "not deserving of the uniform", how about all you ex-mil guys out there who cant stand the VRT / ATC join up and try to move it forward, and put some service life back into the ATC! God knows as an organisation we need the staff, and those of us who are NOT ex mil appreciate the input from those who have been through the system! (well most of us do anyway!)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just be prepared to acknowledge that the cadet forces are not the armed services and there are some very real differences which need to be considered.
The wealth of knowledge, expertise (some of which may actually count for naught, but that is another matter) and stories can only enhance the organization but there is still a steep learning curve, especially for those servicemen and women who are a bit longer in the tooth.
The Air Cadets really are at the fluffier side of "service life" and the working practices are far more in the style of modern management than, say, the forces of 10 years ago. I'm not saying that it is for the best, just that it is.
The wealth of knowledge, expertise (some of which may actually count for naught, but that is another matter) and stories can only enhance the organization but there is still a steep learning curve, especially for those servicemen and women who are a bit longer in the tooth.
The Air Cadets really are at the fluffier side of "service life" and the working practices are far more in the style of modern management than, say, the forces of 10 years ago. I'm not saying that it is for the best, just that it is.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Birmingham
Age: 50
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that I could say, that, if I were a (Non-Commisioned)serving member of the regular RAF and had been in the Force for nearly 15 years, served the Queen and counrty on many occasions, put my life on the line many times, been apart from my loved ones and witnessed the evillness of armed conflict then I would be uncomfortable being put in situations where a RAFVR(FT) Officer who has no military experience has command over me. I would feel that i had earned the right to wear that uniform and beret with pride. I understand that these VR Officers have a responsibility and a position of authority but it should be only for the cadets. I do not think that Civilians who do a week or so on officer training and have no military experience should be placed in command of regular service men. From what I know the VR do not have to do annual fitness tests, annual defense training, orderly duties and go to the gulf. Regular's DO. In some cases i think that the VR Officer in command would have no concept of the different stresses that the Regulars would be under.
I agree with the statment by RayDarr vbmenu_register("postmenu_2380382", true); that some VR's feel threatened by Regular's and as a result would create the need to prove ones rank therefore creating bad feeling.
VR(T) should not in my opinion have the same status as "Full Blown" RAF officers and uniform or an emblem should be worn to show this.
I agree with the statment by RayDarr vbmenu_register("postmenu_2380382", true); that some VR's feel threatened by Regular's and as a result would create the need to prove ones rank therefore creating bad feeling.
VR(T) should not in my opinion have the same status as "Full Blown" RAF officers and uniform or an emblem should be worn to show this.
Isn't that what the shiny metal VRT pins through the rank slides are there for though? Not being funny, but you can usually spot a VR(T) Officer from a long way off by the beer gut. Seriously though, I have worked with quite a few VR(T) and I have complete respect for most of them as youth organisation leaders.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote=DK338]No VR(T) officers running Sqns of military aircraft fella and don't include VGSs because they don't count. However, those VR(T) types on full time engagements are civil servants on J class commissions so yes they are civilians.
The Gliders based at Syerston are maintained by civillians who are commanded by a full time RAF JEngO.
The Gliders based at Syerston are maintained by civillians who are commanded by a full time RAF JEngO.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dazjs - do you know anything about the VR(T)???? I suspect very little.
You do get the odd knob who will try to lord it over a regular airman or junior officer - but they are few and far between.
We don't get involved in operational taskings so it's highly unlikely that a VR(T) Officer would have "command" over someone in the regulars.
The exception to this is where the safety, security and welfare of the cadets in our charge are concerned. occasionally I have had to reign-in an over-zealous "ACLO team" helper because they were
a) treating cadets like regular soldiers.
or
b) driving around dangerously in a land rover on a "night exercise" with the chance of people being run over.
any other time and I'd make a pleasant request for cooperation.
We have gold VR(T) badges on our shoulders to denote our branch - is this not enough?
You do get the odd knob who will try to lord it over a regular airman or junior officer - but they are few and far between.
We don't get involved in operational taskings so it's highly unlikely that a VR(T) Officer would have "command" over someone in the regulars.
The exception to this is where the safety, security and welfare of the cadets in our charge are concerned. occasionally I have had to reign-in an over-zealous "ACLO team" helper because they were
a) treating cadets like regular soldiers.
or
b) driving around dangerously in a land rover on a "night exercise" with the chance of people being run over.
any other time and I'd make a pleasant request for cooperation.
We have gold VR(T) badges on our shoulders to denote our branch - is this not enough?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Birmingham
Age: 50
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote=Big Bear]
have to correct you there. they are maintained by regular servicemen and women, commanded with a full time JengO with a RAFVR Squadron Leader over him.
Originally Posted by DK338
No VR(T) officers running Sqns of military aircraft fella and don't include VGSs because they don't count. However, those VR(T) types on full time engagements are civil servants on J class commissions so yes they are civilians.
The Gliders based at Syerston are maintained by civillians who are commanded by a full time RAF JEngO.
The Gliders based at Syerston are maintained by civillians who are commanded by a full time RAF JEngO.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Birmingham
Age: 50
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mgdaviso
Dazjs - do you know anything about the VR(T)???? I suspect very little.
You do get the odd knob who will try to lord it over a regular airman or junior officer - but they are few and far between.
We don't get involved in operational taskings so it's highly unlikely that a VR(T) Officer would have "command" over someone in the regulars.
The exception to this is where the safety, security and welfare of the cadets in our charge are concerned. occasionally I have had to reign-in an over-zealous "ACLO team" helper because they were
a) treating cadets like regular soldiers.
or
b) driving around dangerously in a land rover on a "night exercise" with the chance of people being run over.
any other time and I'd make a pleasant request for cooperation.
We have gold VR(T) badges on our shoulders to denote our branch - is this not enough?
You do get the odd knob who will try to lord it over a regular airman or junior officer - but they are few and far between.
We don't get involved in operational taskings so it's highly unlikely that a VR(T) Officer would have "command" over someone in the regulars.
The exception to this is where the safety, security and welfare of the cadets in our charge are concerned. occasionally I have had to reign-in an over-zealous "ACLO team" helper because they were
a) treating cadets like regular soldiers.
or
b) driving around dangerously in a land rover on a "night exercise" with the chance of people being run over.
any other time and I'd make a pleasant request for cooperation.
We have gold VR(T) badges on our shoulders to denote our branch - is this not enough?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dazjs
I have a freind in the RAF and he has been all over the world. He is now at RAF Syerston where all the aircrew are Reservists (Paid, voulenteers?) and from what he says they DO have command over RAF Full time personell. They do not wear little badges and are clvil servants paid by the hour but wear RAF flying suits. Hows that work ???????
completely different animal mate.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Birmingham
Age: 50
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mgdaviso
That's because they are RAFR probably, not RAF VR(T).
completely different animal mate.
completely different animal mate.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAF - Regular people being paid to do their job. Fight wars (or LEAN)
RAFAux or RAAuxF - The RAF's TA
RAFVR(T) - Run the Air Cadet Organisation
RAFR - Usually (but not always) retired or ex-RAF people, employed as (I think) J class reserve. Civil servants, limited call up liability - NOT, by any stretch of the imagination the "real" RAF. For example, generally all ATC Wing AdO's are J Class RAFR's - Ours is an ex-Wing Cdr Rock, and bloody good at his job he is too.
RAFAux or RAAuxF - The RAF's TA
RAFVR(T) - Run the Air Cadet Organisation
RAFR - Usually (but not always) retired or ex-RAF people, employed as (I think) J class reserve. Civil servants, limited call up liability - NOT, by any stretch of the imagination the "real" RAF. For example, generally all ATC Wing AdO's are J Class RAFR's - Ours is an ex-Wing Cdr Rock, and bloody good at his job he is too.