Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Good on them. Having gone throught DHFS I know that most of these chaps are ex-RAF and wouldn't consider strike action lightly. When the MoD contractorised essential elements of the RAF they opened themselves up to these kinds of events. Maybe this will make them think twice before selling out what remains of the RAF.
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
"I know that most of these chaps are ex-RAF and wouldn't consider strike action lightly."
Well you "know" wrong then. These people did the same old routine less than 5 years ago. Looks like you can almost plan on it - bit like the firemen eh?
Well you "know" wrong then. These people did the same old routine less than 5 years ago. Looks like you can almost plan on it - bit like the firemen eh?
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Sorry, Weasel me old, but one can't half feel some Schadenfreude about this whole thing....
....and the Mercenary Flying Training Scam will pose even bigger risks for future flying training, methinks.
The creeping cancer of contractorisation - a cut too far!
....and the Mercenary Flying Training Scam will pose even bigger risks for future flying training, methinks.
The creeping cancer of contractorisation - a cut too far!
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
What about the poor FBH guys at Middle Wallop then - they already get less than the Shawbury guys and they live in a more expensive area - and I don't think they are going on strike.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
What about the poor FBH guys at Middle Wallop then - they already get less than the Shawbury guys and they live in a more expensive area - and I don't think they are going on strike.
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Ah yes a contract - isn't that when both parties agree to terms and conditions with the intention of honouring said terms and conditions. Have FBH honoured their part of the contract?
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Crab, I realise that this is a rumour network, but I think you should be sure of your facts before posting. There is a background in this case of the management deliberately splitting the negotiations along the old 'divide and conquer' principles. MW BALPA members were actually sent away from the collective bargaining table on a point of procedure, then settled on their present deal with the threat of redundancies hanging over them. Some of the MW brethren have grandfather rights from previous contracts, so the playing field is not level to start with. (btw I was offered, and declined, a job at MW with FBH, as they do not pay anywhere near enough to live in inflated Hampshire, imho).
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
I've had a lot to do with Shawditz over the years and was even on the staff at DHFS for a while. We, as military blokes, may not agree with them striking but at the end of the day, they are now being paid less than market rates to do their job (as FBH have welched on previous pay deals that have been negotiated).
Some have made the point that if they don't like it, they should leave and/or they knew the pay scales in the first place. When the contract was put in place 7 years ago, they were paid the going rate, but this has been eroded ever since. It is their right to strike and negotiate a fair pay deal; FBH were happy to call their bluff but it could all backfire if and when they do walk out (the aircrew that is - they won't be able to get stand-in QHIs). In civvy street, if you don't like it and you're part of a union and the union thinks you're right, then you can strike. If we didn't want a "union", we wouldn't be posting threads like this...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204672
In the short term, it could lead to a little heartache for those mil staff and students at Shawditz which will soon be forgotten...
In the long term, it may help shape the contracts being written for the future MFTS and perhaps (work with me here) be of benefit to the service. I mean , the MoD wouldn't be once bitten twice shy... would they?
Some have made the point that if they don't like it, they should leave and/or they knew the pay scales in the first place. When the contract was put in place 7 years ago, they were paid the going rate, but this has been eroded ever since. It is their right to strike and negotiate a fair pay deal; FBH were happy to call their bluff but it could all backfire if and when they do walk out (the aircrew that is - they won't be able to get stand-in QHIs). In civvy street, if you don't like it and you're part of a union and the union thinks you're right, then you can strike. If we didn't want a "union", we wouldn't be posting threads like this...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204672
In the short term, it could lead to a little heartache for those mil staff and students at Shawditz which will soon be forgotten...
In the long term, it may help shape the contracts being written for the future MFTS and perhaps (work with me here) be of benefit to the service. I mean , the MoD wouldn't be once bitten twice shy... would they?
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Some have said the Strawberry guys are 'greedy people'. They earn around £39k at the moment. They are the only experienced QHIs on the Sqns (yes, I know that is mainly because of contractorisation, but that's not their fault). Whenever a stood has problems it's usually the civies who are asked to fly the remedial sorties. The military are on, what, £55k? Take away the x factor, and they are still paid more. But they move around, I here you say. There are Sqn Ldrs at Strawbs who have been there for donkey's years. Get over 60k a year and some will retire on over £30k. The civvies don't seem greedy to me!
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
aytoo - I never said the playing field was level and I am sure that FBH don't play fair (they are in business to make money) but all the QHIs were happy to take the deal when they signed the dotted line - many because it meant they didn't have to spend money getting ATPLs and the like.
OverTq - as I understand it there is a dearth of mil A2s at Strawberry because the military guys come off the QHI course and get sent back to the front-line asap and those that do stay don't stay for long so B1 flt cdrs are the norm instead of an exception as it was in pre DHFS days. So if all the experienced QHIs are civvy, it makes sense for struggling studes to fly with them. Why should you get paid more for flying with a duff student than a good one anyway?
OverTq - as I understand it there is a dearth of mil A2s at Strawberry because the military guys come off the QHI course and get sent back to the front-line asap and those that do stay don't stay for long so B1 flt cdrs are the norm instead of an exception as it was in pre DHFS days. So if all the experienced QHIs are civvy, it makes sense for struggling studes to fly with them. Why should you get paid more for flying with a duff student than a good one anyway?
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
In reply to 'they cant afford to live in Shropshire'. I have seen first hand the 'big boys tos club' that the ex mil pilots have become. It is laughable to suggest that these people cannot afford to live whereever they feel like. I may have a bit of sympathy for the support staff, however the pilots signed a deal, if they wanted more they should have gone elsewhere, the North Sea at night in the winter for example.
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
First of all let me state that I have no first hand knowledge of the situation. However, as an outsider it seems to me quite simple. The ex mil pilots are working for a civillian company. They are now civillians and should be regarded as such, the fact that they are ex military is irrelevant! Unless there is a no strike clause in their contract they have every right under UK law to take industrial action after following certain procedures. While we in the miltary might not agree or approve of their actions, they are free to take them, and we in the military are paid to defend their 'right' to do so! They due not owe the military any loyalty by the mere fact they are 'ex-military'!
Terms and conditions change with time, probably faster in the civillian world, and conditions that seemed acceptable a few years ago may not seem so now. As to the idea that employees shouldn't break contracts, employers do on a regular basis. If the pilots in question have followed the proper industrial procedures for legal strike action then it is their right to do so!
As to how much they are paid, I don't know, and that too is irrelevant. Many people in many walks of life are overpaid for what they do, footballers, barristers, dare I say it airline pilots, and many underpaid, teachers, etc. If they price themselves out of the market by excessive wage demands then that is the way of a capitalist society.
Agree or disagree with the morals of their actions if you must, but from what I have read here it appears to me they have the 'right' to take the actions they are! Oh yes, I should add at this point that my political views are NOT left wing!!
I wait to be contradicted.........
Terms and conditions change with time, probably faster in the civillian world, and conditions that seemed acceptable a few years ago may not seem so now. As to the idea that employees shouldn't break contracts, employers do on a regular basis. If the pilots in question have followed the proper industrial procedures for legal strike action then it is their right to do so!
As to how much they are paid, I don't know, and that too is irrelevant. Many people in many walks of life are overpaid for what they do, footballers, barristers, dare I say it airline pilots, and many underpaid, teachers, etc. If they price themselves out of the market by excessive wage demands then that is the way of a capitalist society.
Agree or disagree with the morals of their actions if you must, but from what I have read here it appears to me they have the 'right' to take the actions they are! Oh yes, I should add at this point that my political views are NOT left wing!!
I wait to be contradicted.........
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
If £39K is still what these guys are earning they are behind the rest of the industry, ATPLs or not. I wouldn't even apply for the job for that (I made the decision not to, some years ago, even though I was qualified). Some of them might be gaining their ATPLs as we speak. If they leave en masse, then what? They are the most experienced instructors in their field and would be extremely difficult to replace, at least in the short term.
I really cannot see why Crab chooses to post this puerile "holier than thou" stuff such as he does. Was he given a difficult time going through DHFS himself as a student, one wonders? One day he might be looking for a civvie job away from his cosy little crew-room himself and he might just find himself somewhat regretting that he, in his own small way, opined that specialist ex-military pilots' salaries should be suppressed.....
Look at the big picture Crab and get a life.
I really cannot see why Crab chooses to post this puerile "holier than thou" stuff such as he does. Was he given a difficult time going through DHFS himself as a student, one wonders? One day he might be looking for a civvie job away from his cosy little crew-room himself and he might just find himself somewhat regretting that he, in his own small way, opined that specialist ex-military pilots' salaries should be suppressed.....
Look at the big picture Crab and get a life.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Biggus and Shy Torque
Couldn't agree more. Striking, as military mates, is anathema to us but we shouldn't sit in our ivory towers and criticise the FBH guys for taking industrial action.
We all have a value and if we feel we're not getting that value then we have a right to feel agrieved. Us military mates sit in the crewroom and visit PPrune and bitch about it - the lucky ones at Shawditz take industrial action.
Couldn't agree more. Striking, as military mates, is anathema to us but we shouldn't sit in our ivory towers and criticise the FBH guys for taking industrial action.
We all have a value and if we feel we're not getting that value then we have a right to feel agrieved. Us military mates sit in the crewroom and visit PPrune and bitch about it - the lucky ones at Shawditz take industrial action.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
OverTq - as I understand it there is a dearth of mil A2s at Strawberry because the military guys come off the QHI course and get sent back to the front-line asap and those that do stay don't stay for long so B1 flt cdrs are the norm instead of an exception as it was in pre DHFS days. So if all the experienced QHIs are civvy, it makes sense for struggling studes to fly with them. Why should you get paid more for flying with a duff student than a good one anyway?
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
They could'nt leave en-masse, most are too long in the tooth to get any other employment, and have lived in the area for many years having been on the Shawbury circuit for ever prior to leaving!
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
That, Serf, is why companies get away with paltry rates of pay for staff that have been trained by the services and retired with a service pension.
If this action forces just one of these companies to pay the market rate then it is to be applauded.
Just wait until they have to train their own staff!
If this action forces just one of these companies to pay the market rate then it is to be applauded.
Just wait until they have to train their own staff!