Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
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Might be worth reminding them, because they still use the same old lame excuses......
Oh, and thank you!! All the best to you too!!
Oh, and thank you!! All the best to you too!!
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Twonston Pickle,
A bit thick of you to claim that I 'miss the point entirely'. You don't need an education or to be in the military to know that civilian contractors cannot be deployed to fight or that they have the right to strike.
I can also without missing any point tell you that if the military go to war there would be no strike - if you had been around any civilian contract for the military during the Falklands conflict or the build up for Gulf War 1 or 2 you would realise that the civilians gave outstanding support.
I sympathise with those who would rather all tasks were done by servicemen and women but the military have found a cheaper way for the time being and if that provides more bang for buck in the front line then they are right to do it that way.
A bit thick of you to claim that I 'miss the point entirely'. You don't need an education or to be in the military to know that civilian contractors cannot be deployed to fight or that they have the right to strike.
I can also without missing any point tell you that if the military go to war there would be no strike - if you had been around any civilian contract for the military during the Falklands conflict or the build up for Gulf War 1 or 2 you would realise that the civilians gave outstanding support.
I sympathise with those who would rather all tasks were done by servicemen and women but the military have found a cheaper way for the time being and if that provides more bang for buck in the front line then they are right to do it that way.
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Yeah. They can boil the kettle on their brazier 
Soddit
So given the choice between contracting out duty whipping boy or primary roles, it's sensible to go for the latter. Leave fewer guys to do the other jobs as well as their main role and get more evidence to support your argument. Man, you're Genius.
Chimp.
Soddit
It may also surprise these same people that civilians can do the job better in many cases and with less people because they are not distracted by non-productive tasks like duty officer or other non-core activities.
Chimp.
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Soddim,
There are a number of strikes that have caused some concern and show that there may not be the level of support for the military that you suggest. Ops don't stop just because we are not fighting a "War". The threatened strike that started this thread is my first example, a threatened strike by cvilian caterers at a well-known lincolnshire airbase was another, along with the firemans strike during the build up to ops on Telic.
You are right when you say the military (MOD/politicians) have found a cheaper way but I don't believe you will find any evidence to support "more bang for your buck". I'm all for efficiency but not cuts or contractorisation just to save money.
There are a number of strikes that have caused some concern and show that there may not be the level of support for the military that you suggest. Ops don't stop just because we are not fighting a "War". The threatened strike that started this thread is my first example, a threatened strike by cvilian caterers at a well-known lincolnshire airbase was another, along with the firemans strike during the build up to ops on Telic.
You are right when you say the military (MOD/politicians) have found a cheaper way but I don't believe you will find any evidence to support "more bang for your buck". I'm all for efficiency but not cuts or contractorisation just to save money.
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Inward spiral?
Looking at other threads concerning reasons for the numbers leaving these days (and very similar to the days when I left 9 
years ago) when does it all collapse. Personnel are leaving because the frontline/secondline ratio gets worse and because secondary duties etc. are more abundant thanks to fewer people - so time at home is less rejuvenating.
Those secondline jobs (that once provided a two or three year hiatus in the disruptive though rewarding life) have been contractorised so as these relatively larger number of leavers need replacing, so the training need increases - along with numbers of contractors - but where do they come from? The contractor has to train QHIs. How much will that cost? Who cares; they will write their own figure and we know who will pay. And even then - WILL the service they provide be as good as now?
It seems a problem that will only really materialise when the military finally stops shrinking because I am sure the steady state cannot be sustainable.
years ago) when does it all collapse. Personnel are leaving because the frontline/secondline ratio gets worse and because secondary duties etc. are more abundant thanks to fewer people - so time at home is less rejuvenating. Those secondline jobs (that once provided a two or three year hiatus in the disruptive though rewarding life) have been contractorised so as these relatively larger number of leavers need replacing, so the training need increases - along with numbers of contractors - but where do they come from? The contractor has to train QHIs. How much will that cost? Who cares; they will write their own figure and we know who will pay. And even then - WILL the service they provide be as good as now?
It seems a problem that will only really materialise when the military finally stops shrinking because I am sure the steady state cannot be sustainable.
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Love the quote from Serf - did you not check the pay scale before interview - guess he's one of those heros who never expect a pay rise throughout his whole career, , maybe one day he too will smell the coffee, or even understand what he is on about, without firing off without any knowledge of the subject - love him!!
Any sensible inputs would be well recieved - sniping can be directed elsewhere
Any sensible inputs would be well recieved - sniping can be directed elsewhere
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Twonston Pickle,
Hard to believe that you are concerned about 'threatened strikes'. These are usually a last bargaining chip necessary in the civilian world to secure a reasonable salary for those who do not have the advantage of an independent pay review body looking after them. Rest assured that if the 'ops' you refer to are perceived to be important in this country's interest, they would be given the precedence they deserved.
How you can bring the firemans strike into this argument is beyond me - don't think they were ever contracted out of the military.
This country has an outstanding record of support for the military when required and ex-servicemen and women employed on civilian contracts are more not less likely to give that support. However, if the military are overstretched or inconvenienced by political or military incompetance, don't expect their support to ease the problems.
As for the application of savings to the front line from contracting out , that is a matter for the head shed and the treasury. If you care to look at the figures, the savings are there and are availiable - if they don't look like they have done any good think how much worse off the military might be without them.
As I wrote in a previous post, the savings might not look so good when the contractors have to train their own people from scratch and pay a decent salary and pension. At the moment they are getting away with low salaries and minimal training costs - when the real price of these contracts kicks in maybe your lords and masters will realise that Trenchards air force was well structured.
Hard to believe that you are concerned about 'threatened strikes'. These are usually a last bargaining chip necessary in the civilian world to secure a reasonable salary for those who do not have the advantage of an independent pay review body looking after them. Rest assured that if the 'ops' you refer to are perceived to be important in this country's interest, they would be given the precedence they deserved.
How you can bring the firemans strike into this argument is beyond me - don't think they were ever contracted out of the military.
This country has an outstanding record of support for the military when required and ex-servicemen and women employed on civilian contracts are more not less likely to give that support. However, if the military are overstretched or inconvenienced by political or military incompetance, don't expect their support to ease the problems.
As for the application of savings to the front line from contracting out , that is a matter for the head shed and the treasury. If you care to look at the figures, the savings are there and are availiable - if they don't look like they have done any good think how much worse off the military might be without them.
As I wrote in a previous post, the savings might not look so good when the contractors have to train their own people from scratch and pay a decent salary and pension. At the moment they are getting away with low salaries and minimal training costs - when the real price of these contracts kicks in maybe your lords and masters will realise that Trenchards air force was well structured.
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serf, you wouldn't be FBH management by any chance?
Where exactly in the industry are you getting a 'standard' for CFS qualified, ex-military QHIs? I'm sure both sides in the dispute would be delighted to find such a standard!
The AMICUS members are holding a series of one-day stoppages through Jan & Feb (see link to Shropshire Star above).
BALPA members are balloting for strike action, with a result expected soon after Xmas - watch this space.
"mainly single engine, onshore, vfr,monday-friday 9-5"
Hmm. Maybe not management. They would at least know that DHFS encompasses:
Single and twin engine, dry and wet winching, non-procedural and procedural IFR, night including NVG.
I'll grant you monday-friday though!
Where exactly in the industry are you getting a 'standard' for CFS qualified, ex-military QHIs? I'm sure both sides in the dispute would be delighted to find such a standard!
The AMICUS members are holding a series of one-day stoppages through Jan & Feb (see link to Shropshire Star above).
BALPA members are balloting for strike action, with a result expected soon after Xmas - watch this space.
"mainly single engine, onshore, vfr,monday-friday 9-5"
Hmm. Maybe not management. They would at least know that DHFS encompasses:
Single and twin engine, dry and wet winching, non-procedural and procedural IFR, night including NVG.
I'll grant you monday-friday though!
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mainly single engine, onshore, vfr,monday-friday 9-5
twin engine, dry and wet winching, procedural IFR, night including NVG
aytoo,
I think you must have missed the "mainly" in serf's post.
In my opinion this is a disgraceful show by what is effectively the first generation of ex-military QHIs, supported even more disgracefully by their engineering co-conspirators. This is not the first time they've done it; The company narrowly averted a strike in 2001 (or was it 2002) when it caved in and awarded a substantial pay deal under threat of all out strike by the same crowd. Remember these are first generation ex-Mil colleagues paid to keep the future armed forces in the air. Quite amazing what happens to people once empowered by the strength of money and a union. These people are not struggling to make ends meet; The cleaners and the admin staff maybe, but not these chaps.
The MoD really must take heed under UKMFTS when determining the Civilian:Military ratio in its future Flying instructors. Any thoughts of Military Ethos, committment, loyalty, etc will no longer be there once these ex-military instructors are under civilian contract.
I think you must have missed the "mainly" in serf's post.
In my opinion this is a disgraceful show by what is effectively the first generation of ex-military QHIs, supported even more disgracefully by their engineering co-conspirators. This is not the first time they've done it; The company narrowly averted a strike in 2001 (or was it 2002) when it caved in and awarded a substantial pay deal under threat of all out strike by the same crowd. Remember these are first generation ex-Mil colleagues paid to keep the future armed forces in the air. Quite amazing what happens to people once empowered by the strength of money and a union. These people are not struggling to make ends meet; The cleaners and the admin staff maybe, but not these chaps.
The MoD really must take heed under UKMFTS when determining the Civilian:Military ratio in its future Flying instructors. Any thoughts of Military Ethos, committment, loyalty, etc will no longer be there once these ex-military instructors are under civilian contract.
Weasel, old chum, hopefully this will be a wake-up call to those who've been too keen to employ such mercenaries to do the jobs the UK military once did itself.
Where will the next generation of ex-military QHIs come from when the MoD no longer has any of its own to be attracted by the civil contractor? That is always the problem with excessive contractorisation - it starts out being able to select its own work force from a large number of ex-servicemen who will work for a 'top-up' salary to add to their military pensions and are content with their Mon-Fri lifestyle with no threat of a posting somewhere they don't want to be.
But then, as the years pass, the supply starts to dry up and it becomes an employee's market....
When the Mercenaries' Flying Training Scam starts, perish the thought, just how will the sustainability of non-service Flight Instructors be addressed? Particularly once the gathering airline employment market which is already siphoning all the experience away from the services gathers further pace.
Never-ending defence cuts, the creeping cancer of contractorisation... the MoD sowed the wind, it must now reap the resulting whirlwind!
Oh dear...what a pity...never mind.
Where will the next generation of ex-military QHIs come from when the MoD no longer has any of its own to be attracted by the civil contractor? That is always the problem with excessive contractorisation - it starts out being able to select its own work force from a large number of ex-servicemen who will work for a 'top-up' salary to add to their military pensions and are content with their Mon-Fri lifestyle with no threat of a posting somewhere they don't want to be.
But then, as the years pass, the supply starts to dry up and it becomes an employee's market....
When the Mercenaries' Flying Training Scam starts, perish the thought, just how will the sustainability of non-service Flight Instructors be addressed? Particularly once the gathering airline employment market which is already siphoning all the experience away from the services gathers further pace.
Never-ending defence cuts, the creeping cancer of contractorisation... the MoD sowed the wind, it must now reap the resulting whirlwind!
Oh dear...what a pity...never mind.
Avoid imitations
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Well said, Beagle.
Market forces rule every time; contractorisation can only ever work if the people are available and prepared to work for the contractor. If the going rate goes up; they have to accept that or lose staff loyalty.
As far as loyalty to the country and MOD (!) etc. goes, I recall that MOD had no problem in making many pilots redundant a few years ago when it suited them.
The pool of suitably experienced helicopter pilots now seems to be shrinking. For some years the main employers (not just DHFS) have put nothing into bringing along a new generation of pilots and it seems unless they address this soon the industry will find it difficult to maintain crew standards.
Market forces rule every time; contractorisation can only ever work if the people are available and prepared to work for the contractor. If the going rate goes up; they have to accept that or lose staff loyalty.
As far as loyalty to the country and MOD (!) etc. goes, I recall that MOD had no problem in making many pilots redundant a few years ago when it suited them.
The pool of suitably experienced helicopter pilots now seems to be shrinking. For some years the main employers (not just DHFS) have put nothing into bringing along a new generation of pilots and it seems unless they address this soon the industry will find it difficult to maintain crew standards.
I have no wish to get involved in a slanging match, it is just my opinion.
The QHI's get decent pay for what they do. A rate of inflation pay rise should be acceptable, if that is whats on offer.
The other departments probably have a case for a better deal.
And before you ask, I do have good knowledge of the rotary industry and military helicopter operations, training, cfs and dhfs.
That is all.
The QHI's get decent pay for what they do. A rate of inflation pay rise should be acceptable, if that is whats on offer.
The other departments probably have a case for a better deal.
And before you ask, I do have good knowledge of the rotary industry and military helicopter operations, training, cfs and dhfs.
That is all.
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I have no connection with DHFS although I did interview a few years ago - I turned down their offer due to the poor salary - funnily enough!
Just one point, A rate of inflation salary rise these days will mean a gradual decline in lifestyle as the calculated rate does not include things such as Council Tax, school "add ons" - it costs on avarage £20 a week for things like schooltrips, sports kit etc - and increasing health costs - if you mil guys think the health service is free try having a toothache!
A fair rate for the job should be paid - not the R22 rate either!
Wiz
Just one point, A rate of inflation salary rise these days will mean a gradual decline in lifestyle as the calculated rate does not include things such as Council Tax, school "add ons" - it costs on avarage £20 a week for things like schooltrips, sports kit etc - and increasing health costs - if you mil guys think the health service is free try having a toothache!
A fair rate for the job should be paid - not the R22 rate either!
Wiz
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It seems to me that market forces rule everything. Most of the QHI´s I know (myself included) have left to the airlines, or are working overseas for better salaries, terms and conditions.
If Shawbury do not pay enough to compete with the Airline / Offshore industry then they will have problems recruiting.
If Shawbury do not pay enough to compete with the Airline / Offshore industry then they will have problems recruiting.
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Welcome to the real world outside of the light blue.
Once you leave the sevice then it is a free market and it is up to you to get the best pay and conditions package that you can, Forget about loyalty it doesn't exist. The employer will drop you as fast as he can if the contract is lost or a cheaper pilot comes along.
I now work in the oil industry and it is fascinating to see what some "contractors" charge for their services. If they are a specialist they charge the earth. It is not unknown for helicopters to be hired to remove contractors from the rig, as soon as their work is finished, as their pay is higher than the cost of hiring the helicopter.
If you are in a job that requires a skill that not many possess then the pay you require should reflect that.
Remember the managers may think that they are the ones that earn the company the money but it is a myth. The managers strike and the flying gets done - the QHIs strike and ..................
Good luck from the bretheren up North
332M
Once you leave the sevice then it is a free market and it is up to you to get the best pay and conditions package that you can, Forget about loyalty it doesn't exist. The employer will drop you as fast as he can if the contract is lost or a cheaper pilot comes along.
I now work in the oil industry and it is fascinating to see what some "contractors" charge for their services. If they are a specialist they charge the earth. It is not unknown for helicopters to be hired to remove contractors from the rig, as soon as their work is finished, as their pay is higher than the cost of hiring the helicopter.
If you are in a job that requires a skill that not many possess then the pay you require should reflect that.
Remember the managers may think that they are the ones that earn the company the money but it is a myth. The managers strike and the flying gets done - the QHIs strike and ..................
Good luck from the bretheren up North
332M
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quick point you may all be forgetting here - how much is the government paying FBH for each QHI verses how much are FBH paying their QHI's - Approx 50% is the figure!!!
FBH are paid 80K for each QHI - but pay less than 40K in wages
Work it out who's making the profit here - NOT the people asking for a decent pay packet - amen
FBH are paid 80K for each QHI - but pay less than 40K in wages
Work it out who's making the profit here - NOT the people asking for a decent pay packet - amen