RAF Scampton closing before it opens?
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Brit55
Not my idea, I can assure you - perhaps you missed the underlying sarcasm, sorry!
T_E
Not sure it is - certainly won't be by 16 Jan 06.
STH
... the place formerly known as RAF Kirton in Lindsey which is now a satellite of RAF Scampton and not to be called RAF Kirton in Lindsey under any circumstances ...
T_E
manned by more personnel than Scampton
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 28th Dec 2005 at 18:34.
Listen, you ground-pounding scope-dope Ps-of-S. Scampton is an historic RAF bomber base to which many hundreds of aircrew failed to return during the dark days of WW2. Later it became a Canberra base; later still it became a cornerstone of our Cold War V-bomber force for almost a quarter of a century.
Whereas Kirton-in-Lindsey was a small fighter aerodrome whose operational usefulness ended in April 1943. A number of minor units used it until it was put on care and maintenance in 1957. It had a brief 5 year reactivation for gliding and technical training in 1960, before the dung eaters took it over in 1965.
The fact that the gypsy existence of the RAF's aerobatic team now sees it at Scampton is frankly of minor interest. The 'Home of the Red Arrows' was, and always will be, Kemble.
Yes, it's a huge pity that bone-headed bean-counting idiots have allowed a once proud RAF Scampton to decay so badly. But thank heavens that English Heritage have a finer sense of military history than the MoD. But it's an even bigger shame that either historic site should now be occupied by a bunch of mere radar operators, rather than by real flying squadrons.
Whereas Kirton-in-Lindsey was a small fighter aerodrome whose operational usefulness ended in April 1943. A number of minor units used it until it was put on care and maintenance in 1957. It had a brief 5 year reactivation for gliding and technical training in 1960, before the dung eaters took it over in 1965.
The fact that the gypsy existence of the RAF's aerobatic team now sees it at Scampton is frankly of minor interest. The 'Home of the Red Arrows' was, and always will be, Kemble.
Yes, it's a huge pity that bone-headed bean-counting idiots have allowed a once proud RAF Scampton to decay so badly. But thank heavens that English Heritage have a finer sense of military history than the MoD. But it's an even bigger shame that either historic site should now be occupied by a bunch of mere radar operators, rather than by real flying squadrons.
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I think it's worth pointing out that asbestos and decrepid old buildings might be an issue but this is nothing new. Getting rid of
asbestos is a known practice and regularily carried outin industry.
Just because Scampton isn't in pristine nick - it shouldn't be dismissed as something that is unworkable. If we applied the rule that anything that involved English Heritage was to be avoided it would put the future of Cranwell's fine historic buildings in a poor light for the future.
asbestos is a known practice and regularily carried outin industry.
Just because Scampton isn't in pristine nick - it shouldn't be dismissed as something that is unworkable. If we applied the rule that anything that involved English Heritage was to be avoided it would put the future of Cranwell's fine historic buildings in a poor light for the future.
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Beagle
I think you ought to go and have a lie-down old chap. The way things are going, the only buildings at Scampton that will not be falling down in ten years (even if they are unoccupied by then) will be those which are occupied by the 'ground-pounding scope-dope Ps-of-S' (I expected better of you) - including the one-time Airmens' Mess and Cinema/Dambusters Raid Briefing Room.
I am not sure what it is you think the people at English Heritage have done to preserve Scampton, but I am pretty sure sticking a load of 'Listed' labels on things is not enough on its own to deserve a round-of-applause. One of the main reasons the whole regen of Scampton has been put at risk (abandoned?) is because of the additional costs of doing things the EH way (agreed by our lords and masters), on top of a pretty uncared-for and unmaintained unit, and EH's outright refusal to allow some things to happen at all. These additional costs have been paid for by you and I out of the Defence Budget, probably at the expense of far more deserving causes.
It upsets me to see our Service shrinking in the way it has done and will continue to do, and I can never resist having a look at what is left of some of our old units, but simply fencing things off and praying that one day the magic infrastructure fairies will come back and restore things to their former glory does not achieve anything.
As far as signs are concerned, I don't think you ought to let a bit of banter raise your blood pressure so much!
Now I'll have to go and have a lie-down.
BA
I think you ought to go and have a lie-down old chap. The way things are going, the only buildings at Scampton that will not be falling down in ten years (even if they are unoccupied by then) will be those which are occupied by the 'ground-pounding scope-dope Ps-of-S' (I expected better of you) - including the one-time Airmens' Mess and Cinema/Dambusters Raid Briefing Room.
I am not sure what it is you think the people at English Heritage have done to preserve Scampton, but I am pretty sure sticking a load of 'Listed' labels on things is not enough on its own to deserve a round-of-applause. One of the main reasons the whole regen of Scampton has been put at risk (abandoned?) is because of the additional costs of doing things the EH way (agreed by our lords and masters), on top of a pretty uncared-for and unmaintained unit, and EH's outright refusal to allow some things to happen at all. These additional costs have been paid for by you and I out of the Defence Budget, probably at the expense of far more deserving causes.
It upsets me to see our Service shrinking in the way it has done and will continue to do, and I can never resist having a look at what is left of some of our old units, but simply fencing things off and praying that one day the magic infrastructure fairies will come back and restore things to their former glory does not achieve anything.
As far as signs are concerned, I don't think you ought to let a bit of banter raise your blood pressure so much!
Now I'll have to go and have a lie-down.
BA
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BEags,
Tut tut, old boy - what a nasty thing to say!
I have not denied Scampton's illustrious history. Who could attack the historical importance of such a vital base? Respecting history should not be the same as clinging to the past.
The MOD has a responsibility to maintain the external appearance of Scampton in accordance with the listed status it has been given by English Heritage. However, since the station has not been occupied for a long time, a lot of it has been allowed to decay because the MOD's spending priorities lie elsewhere. Now that the defence budget is slowly tightening, it is unlikely that paying to restore a military site's external apperance while having to conduct extensive renovation inside the buildings is a good investment, when other Stns are soon to become somewhat emptier. Scampton is not in a good state of repair.
Kirton, by contrast, is an open, maintained and ready unit with an existing infrastructure and buildings that are up to spec.
In these days of a shrinking defence budget, how can we justify spending millions to maintain the cosmetic appearance of a Stn, however historic, when other stations already exist with the infrastructure to support military tasks?
CRC Scampton is an excellent facility, and it's a terrible shame that it may yet end up as a lone unit at RAF Scampton. If EH are so keen to see the rest of the site restored, they should have been lobbying the MOD for years to maintain it instead of allowing it to decay. They didn't care one jot until the RAF announced the work-up. "English Heritage have a finer sense of military history than the MoD" - what utter tosh. If that's the case, why wasn't a complaint raised about the state of the station? Bear in mind, the MOD cares for Halton House, College Hall, Sandhurst, Dartmouth, Bentley Priory, Amport House and HMS DRYAD. EH should have complained publicly about the state of an historic site.
I'm very sorry, BEags, but if you can't read the irony in my earlier posts, if you're so blinkered in your attitude that you'll resort to claiming I know nothing because I'm a "ground pounding scope dope", and if you think that the RAF should prioritise the past over the future, you need to check your logic. We all take pride in our traditions and our history, but we simply cannot afford to throw money at every piece of history we have because we have a job to do. If you're going to make that claim about Scampton, what about Biggin Hill, Tangmere, Coltishall, and all the other former stations? Where does the money come from?
As for us "mere radar operators", why don't you tell us all how we'd have won the Battle of Britain without Fighter Controllers concentrating our force where it counted, and without the advance warning we provided for Fighter AND Bomber Commands? Your opinion is about as outdated and unhealthy as Scampton's tons of asbestos.
If you'd rather take this up, "Ps-of-S" to "Ps-of-S", feel free to PM me.
[Edited to make factual corrections re EH]
Tut tut, old boy - what a nasty thing to say!
I have not denied Scampton's illustrious history. Who could attack the historical importance of such a vital base? Respecting history should not be the same as clinging to the past.
The MOD has a responsibility to maintain the external appearance of Scampton in accordance with the listed status it has been given by English Heritage. However, since the station has not been occupied for a long time, a lot of it has been allowed to decay because the MOD's spending priorities lie elsewhere. Now that the defence budget is slowly tightening, it is unlikely that paying to restore a military site's external apperance while having to conduct extensive renovation inside the buildings is a good investment, when other Stns are soon to become somewhat emptier. Scampton is not in a good state of repair.
Kirton, by contrast, is an open, maintained and ready unit with an existing infrastructure and buildings that are up to spec.
In these days of a shrinking defence budget, how can we justify spending millions to maintain the cosmetic appearance of a Stn, however historic, when other stations already exist with the infrastructure to support military tasks?
CRC Scampton is an excellent facility, and it's a terrible shame that it may yet end up as a lone unit at RAF Scampton. If EH are so keen to see the rest of the site restored, they should have been lobbying the MOD for years to maintain it instead of allowing it to decay. They didn't care one jot until the RAF announced the work-up. "English Heritage have a finer sense of military history than the MoD" - what utter tosh. If that's the case, why wasn't a complaint raised about the state of the station? Bear in mind, the MOD cares for Halton House, College Hall, Sandhurst, Dartmouth, Bentley Priory, Amport House and HMS DRYAD. EH should have complained publicly about the state of an historic site.
I'm very sorry, BEags, but if you can't read the irony in my earlier posts, if you're so blinkered in your attitude that you'll resort to claiming I know nothing because I'm a "ground pounding scope dope", and if you think that the RAF should prioritise the past over the future, you need to check your logic. We all take pride in our traditions and our history, but we simply cannot afford to throw money at every piece of history we have because we have a job to do. If you're going to make that claim about Scampton, what about Biggin Hill, Tangmere, Coltishall, and all the other former stations? Where does the money come from?
As for us "mere radar operators", why don't you tell us all how we'd have won the Battle of Britain without Fighter Controllers concentrating our force where it counted, and without the advance warning we provided for Fighter AND Bomber Commands? Your opinion is about as outdated and unhealthy as Scampton's tons of asbestos.
If you'd rather take this up, "Ps-of-S" to "Ps-of-S", feel free to PM me.
[Edited to make factual corrections re EH]
Last edited by tablet_eraser; 29th Dec 2005 at 20:15.
Beagle
Speaking as a simple 'radar operator' I am aghast at your ignorance, arrogance and attitude. I have the greatest respect for those who fly, no matter what type or task. I also have the greatest respect for everyone else in uniform who does his/her job. Everyone has their part to play. Your comments say far more about you than it does the state of Scampton or anywhere else for that matter.
Try fast forwarding to the 21st century, you might actually like it OLD BOY.
ZH875
Almost forgot about you. Sorry.
Kn*b.
Speaking as a simple 'radar operator' I am aghast at your ignorance, arrogance and attitude. I have the greatest respect for those who fly, no matter what type or task. I also have the greatest respect for everyone else in uniform who does his/her job. Everyone has their part to play. Your comments say far more about you than it does the state of Scampton or anywhere else for that matter.
Try fast forwarding to the 21st century, you might actually like it OLD BOY.
ZH875
Almost forgot about you. Sorry.
Kn*b.
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tablet-rubber,
I am afraid your comments are way off line and most are ill-informed..........................................
'Does anyone else find it ironic that the Stn Cdr of the derelict, decrepit, (possibly) doomed RAF Scampton.....'
How dare you say that Scampton is decrepid, derelict and doomed?
Do you live here? have you been on the camp recently? clearly you have NOT! and you are wrong on all three counts.
Yes it needs some serious work doing to bring it up to todays modern standards, but what RAF base doesn't? Take a look at Waddo Ops block! - there aint enough power to run all the kit!
I agree with BEagle. Your place is in a little bunker, underground somewhere, well away from the real Air Force. You may not wish or want to go to Scampton, but I can assure you that the majority of us would much rarther you didn't come here, and left a truly historic AIR base to AIR Operations, even if its just the Arrows.
Kind regards
TSM
I am afraid your comments are way off line and most are ill-informed..........................................
'Does anyone else find it ironic that the Stn Cdr of the derelict, decrepit, (possibly) doomed RAF Scampton.....'
How dare you say that Scampton is decrepid, derelict and doomed?
Do you live here? have you been on the camp recently? clearly you have NOT! and you are wrong on all three counts.
Yes it needs some serious work doing to bring it up to todays modern standards, but what RAF base doesn't? Take a look at Waddo Ops block! - there aint enough power to run all the kit!
I agree with BEagle. Your place is in a little bunker, underground somewhere, well away from the real Air Force. You may not wish or want to go to Scampton, but I can assure you that the majority of us would much rarther you didn't come here, and left a truly historic AIR base to AIR Operations, even if its just the Arrows.
Kind regards
TSM
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I don't wish to get in the way of swinging handbags, but I have a small technical point.
English Heritage are not responsible for preserving listed buildings or monuments. The owners are. What EH do is to "list" the buildings to prevent the owners knocking them down for houses or whatever. The onus is on the owner ie. MoD.
I have always found it difficult to imagine how Scampton could be both preserved (as it should be) and run as an operational stn. The proposal to shut Boulmer was always barking mad, perhaps driven more by the desire of the airborne component of the FC branch to settle in Lincolnshire full-time .
English Heritage are not responsible for preserving listed buildings or monuments. The owners are. What EH do is to "list" the buildings to prevent the owners knocking them down for houses or whatever. The onus is on the owner ie. MoD.
I have always found it difficult to imagine how Scampton could be both preserved (as it should be) and run as an operational stn. The proposal to shut Boulmer was always barking mad, perhaps driven more by the desire of the airborne component of the FC branch to settle in Lincolnshire full-time .
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TSM,
Because most of the buildings have been abandoned to disrepair (derelict, a word first used by ZH875), many of them are outdated, unhealthy and full of asbestos (decrepit) and because we all know that the Stn's future is under review with other, less-expensive options being investigated (POSSIBLY doomed). I'm very sorry if this assessment, which was intended to point out an irony, has caused you such offence. I don't like the idea of the RAF shrinking any more than other PPRuNers, I just wonder whether Scampton is the right way ahead.
And yes, I have been there recently and I've seen it. Some of it is good, most of it needs an awful lot of work. The new CRC looks fantastic, and makes due reference to the history of the building; the married quarters I visited are modern and pleasant; the Officers' Mess, if it was to be restored, would be magnificent; the combined mess contains some excellent artwork and I'm sure it will have a good mess culture for as long as it remains. If the Service can afford to renovate the Stn, very well; but I don't think our priorities should lie in restoring a base when other bases, with existing infrastructure, are likely to need a role in the future.
Whatever happens, I agree that Scampton is important. If the MOD has no future use for it, I hope that whatever use it is put to maintains its dignity. We managed it with Farnborough, after all.
That's my serious, considered opinion. I'm all for constructive debate; some of my posts were a little abrasive, but I think we all post those every so often. I happen to think that BEags's post was atrocious, though, and couldn't let it go unanswered. He may have a problem with my posts, but that does not confer upon him the right to haughtily condemn all of my colleagues as "mere radar operators". I speak for myself, not for my colleagues.
Finally, FCs DO have a major part to play in air operations. If you're so keen to avoid anything other than FLYING units being based at Scampton, it's going to be a lonely, dysfunctional place. Especially considering the fact that the work-up was planned to house ASSUs. Not flying Sqns. What happened to the concept of teamwork?
JTD,
I stand corrected, and will amend previous posts to make that correction.
Because most of the buildings have been abandoned to disrepair (derelict, a word first used by ZH875), many of them are outdated, unhealthy and full of asbestos (decrepit) and because we all know that the Stn's future is under review with other, less-expensive options being investigated (POSSIBLY doomed). I'm very sorry if this assessment, which was intended to point out an irony, has caused you such offence. I don't like the idea of the RAF shrinking any more than other PPRuNers, I just wonder whether Scampton is the right way ahead.
And yes, I have been there recently and I've seen it. Some of it is good, most of it needs an awful lot of work. The new CRC looks fantastic, and makes due reference to the history of the building; the married quarters I visited are modern and pleasant; the Officers' Mess, if it was to be restored, would be magnificent; the combined mess contains some excellent artwork and I'm sure it will have a good mess culture for as long as it remains. If the Service can afford to renovate the Stn, very well; but I don't think our priorities should lie in restoring a base when other bases, with existing infrastructure, are likely to need a role in the future.
Whatever happens, I agree that Scampton is important. If the MOD has no future use for it, I hope that whatever use it is put to maintains its dignity. We managed it with Farnborough, after all.
That's my serious, considered opinion. I'm all for constructive debate; some of my posts were a little abrasive, but I think we all post those every so often. I happen to think that BEags's post was atrocious, though, and couldn't let it go unanswered. He may have a problem with my posts, but that does not confer upon him the right to haughtily condemn all of my colleagues as "mere radar operators". I speak for myself, not for my colleagues.
Finally, FCs DO have a major part to play in air operations. If you're so keen to avoid anything other than FLYING units being based at Scampton, it's going to be a lonely, dysfunctional place. Especially considering the fact that the work-up was planned to house ASSUs. Not flying Sqns. What happened to the concept of teamwork?
JTD,
I stand corrected, and will amend previous posts to make that correction.
Last edited by tablet_eraser; 29th Dec 2005 at 20:19.
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BA, TSM and JTD all have reasonable points to make about EH. I think they have a difficult balance to try and maintain between achieving their own aims (preservation) whilst encouraging regeneration and investment for projects. Faced with the choice, the average private investor is likely to fight EH or walk away unless the suggestion is cost neutral or actually adds value.
Because they only seem to monitor and advise on listed buildings, it is often quite easy for owners to simply let the buildings fall derelict rather than fork out for expensive restorations that don't actually deliver something that is usable.
For example, there are lots of former RAF officers' messes around the UK that have been renovated and turned into conference centres, hotels etc (Duxford and Hemswell for example) whereas others are simply left to rot until they have to be demolished (and land sold-off for housing developments!) as in the case of Horsham St Faiths. What I don't understand is how some organisations achieve their aims without bending-over backwards to comply with EH, whereas the RAF (and I guess the other Services as well) seems to be absolutely hamstrung by them. In the case of Scampton, though, I believe it is not just the costs of complying with EH that were/are the issue, but in some areas an outright embargo on certain aspects of the project. This, on top of the fact that some parts of the Station are not in particularly good nick (though I think some of the phrases here are a little over-stated).
Anyway, enough of my Bolleaux Rambling! A couple of recent piccies for you:
1. The Airmens' Mess/Cinema/Briefing Room Entrance (now the entrance to the CRC) - anyone out there remember it?
2. The sign from outside the Dambusters Briefing Room (now outside the CRC Ops Room) - sobering. This now has a small model of an appropriately configured Lancaster above the text but beneath the 617 Sqn crest.
STH
Because they only seem to monitor and advise on listed buildings, it is often quite easy for owners to simply let the buildings fall derelict rather than fork out for expensive restorations that don't actually deliver something that is usable.
For example, there are lots of former RAF officers' messes around the UK that have been renovated and turned into conference centres, hotels etc (Duxford and Hemswell for example) whereas others are simply left to rot until they have to be demolished (and land sold-off for housing developments!) as in the case of Horsham St Faiths. What I don't understand is how some organisations achieve their aims without bending-over backwards to comply with EH, whereas the RAF (and I guess the other Services as well) seems to be absolutely hamstrung by them. In the case of Scampton, though, I believe it is not just the costs of complying with EH that were/are the issue, but in some areas an outright embargo on certain aspects of the project. This, on top of the fact that some parts of the Station are not in particularly good nick (though I think some of the phrases here are a little over-stated).
Anyway, enough of my Bolleaux Rambling! A couple of recent piccies for you:
1. The Airmens' Mess/Cinema/Briefing Room Entrance (now the entrance to the CRC) - anyone out there remember it?
2. The sign from outside the Dambusters Briefing Room (now outside the CRC Ops Room) - sobering. This now has a small model of an appropriately configured Lancaster above the text but beneath the 617 Sqn crest.
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 29th Dec 2005 at 21:46.
the married quarters I visited are modern and pleasant
Sorry to go slightly off-topic and in such spotterish fashion - but is there any reason that the board in the photo fails to mention that two Conspicuous Gallantry Medals (the NCO equivalent of the DSO, IIRC) were awarded for the Dams raid?
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Archimedes
When the CRC Project Team arrived at Scampton, they were shown the 'Museum'. In there was a slightly battered version of the board shown here. I guess this would have been erected at the end of or shortly after the War (though I honestly don't know).
About a year later I was also shown the Museum and suggested the board should be put back where it had come from. However, I was informed that a copy had already been made for that very purpose, it being desired to keep the original in the Museum.
As far as I know, the wording is exactly the same as the original, and I have no idea why the 2 CGMs weren't included. Given the building was originally the Airmens' Mess, it makes even less sense for these awards to be omitted. I will try to remember to ask when I get back on Monday. Pse PM me if I forget.
STH
When the CRC Project Team arrived at Scampton, they were shown the 'Museum'. In there was a slightly battered version of the board shown here. I guess this would have been erected at the end of or shortly after the War (though I honestly don't know).
About a year later I was also shown the Museum and suggested the board should be put back where it had come from. However, I was informed that a copy had already been made for that very purpose, it being desired to keep the original in the Museum.
As far as I know, the wording is exactly the same as the original, and I have no idea why the 2 CGMs weren't included. Given the building was originally the Airmens' Mess, it makes even less sense for these awards to be omitted. I will try to remember to ask when I get back on Monday. Pse PM me if I forget.
STH
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I have to say that some of the aircrew on this thread are completely out of line and I'm ashamed to associate myself with them.
The RAF may be here to project air power however, don't forget about the infrastructure that works around you, as without it you would NEVER get to fly.
I does not matter what we do, it's all about how well we do it and as Brits, we do most things better than the others so come on, ease off on the ego trips and remember those who work bloody hard to get you flying (especially if you fly tonkas!!).
Anyway!!! If there is a use for Scampton then lets get it up to speed. I was there for a visit to RAFAT a while back and I have to say, it is in a shocking state and anyone who says otherwise must be walking around with their eyes wide shut! Guy Gibson's office has been left to rot, most upsetting.
The CRC is there, looks good and will provide a service to many aircrew so lets embrace it rather than shun it. The building that is now the CRC is being well looked after with a sense of pride being held by those who work there. They are more than aware of the historical significance of the ops room and I'm sure they'll treat it with respect.
The RAF may be here to project air power however, don't forget about the infrastructure that works around you, as without it you would NEVER get to fly.
I does not matter what we do, it's all about how well we do it and as Brits, we do most things better than the others so come on, ease off on the ego trips and remember those who work bloody hard to get you flying (especially if you fly tonkas!!).
Anyway!!! If there is a use for Scampton then lets get it up to speed. I was there for a visit to RAFAT a while back and I have to say, it is in a shocking state and anyone who says otherwise must be walking around with their eyes wide shut! Guy Gibson's office has been left to rot, most upsetting.
The CRC is there, looks good and will provide a service to many aircrew so lets embrace it rather than shun it. The building that is now the CRC is being well looked after with a sense of pride being held by those who work there. They are more than aware of the historical significance of the ops room and I'm sure they'll treat it with respect.
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Re: RAF Scampton closing before it opens?
Brit55
I think you'll find the 2 aircrew who are most vociferous in their wish to see Scampton revitalised, regardless of cost, are actually EX-aircrew who can now successfully fill the role of 'armchair general' - berating all and sundry about the lack of respect for tradition etc etc whilst singularly disregarding the shrinking defence budget. Pragmatism is what is required here - not dogmatism, otherwise we'll end up with a host of refurbished Scamptons and one Eurofighter - the rest of the latter having been sold to the Saudi's to pay for the former. It will be interesting to see the effect of EH's listings on the ability of the MoD to do works on other places if the effect at Scampton is anything to go by. How can you build SLAM blocks if you can't demolish buildings for fear of changing the 'look and feel' of a site - even if the buildings you are demolishing aren't themselves listed?
Having said that I wholeheartedly agree that we should remember those that fought and died for the freedoms we enjoy. However, I don't think that Guy Gibson would give a monkey's t*ss about the state of his admin office - the only 'office' he would care about is the one that he flew. Several years ago I was tasked to act as an usher at a gathering of the BoB Aircrew Association at Bentley Priory (anybody else notice that that was conspicuously left off the EH List?). None of the distinguished guests there seemed to bemoan the loss of all of the old BoB aerodromes in Kent (though they could probably tell a good few tales about their time there), but the looks on their faces and the tears that sprang to their eyes when the BBMF fighters flew over - it was the aircraft that meant something to them. Hence I think that the bomber and fighter crews of WWII are best commemorated by the BBMF, the OFMC, the Duxford flying collection and the CAF etc in the US. As for remembering all of the crews of the V-force, hopefully a fitting reminder will be returning to the skies shortly.
On the matter of being a 'Ground-Pounding POS' I had the great privilege of spending an afternoon in the RAF Club recently, in the company of a great many ex-aircrew who transferred to FC for all sorts of reasons, some of whom formed the core of the Branch after WWII. Strangely none felt the need to address me in the manner above, especially those who had seen action, and saw all who contributed to the fight as part of a big team, rather than a childish them and us situation. One of them is an ex-president of our Association - an abbreviated CV can be found here.
Anyway, 2 of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse are here - where's ABIW - he's normally up for a spot of FC bashing...
I think you'll find the 2 aircrew who are most vociferous in their wish to see Scampton revitalised, regardless of cost, are actually EX-aircrew who can now successfully fill the role of 'armchair general' - berating all and sundry about the lack of respect for tradition etc etc whilst singularly disregarding the shrinking defence budget. Pragmatism is what is required here - not dogmatism, otherwise we'll end up with a host of refurbished Scamptons and one Eurofighter - the rest of the latter having been sold to the Saudi's to pay for the former. It will be interesting to see the effect of EH's listings on the ability of the MoD to do works on other places if the effect at Scampton is anything to go by. How can you build SLAM blocks if you can't demolish buildings for fear of changing the 'look and feel' of a site - even if the buildings you are demolishing aren't themselves listed?
Having said that I wholeheartedly agree that we should remember those that fought and died for the freedoms we enjoy. However, I don't think that Guy Gibson would give a monkey's t*ss about the state of his admin office - the only 'office' he would care about is the one that he flew. Several years ago I was tasked to act as an usher at a gathering of the BoB Aircrew Association at Bentley Priory (anybody else notice that that was conspicuously left off the EH List?). None of the distinguished guests there seemed to bemoan the loss of all of the old BoB aerodromes in Kent (though they could probably tell a good few tales about their time there), but the looks on their faces and the tears that sprang to their eyes when the BBMF fighters flew over - it was the aircraft that meant something to them. Hence I think that the bomber and fighter crews of WWII are best commemorated by the BBMF, the OFMC, the Duxford flying collection and the CAF etc in the US. As for remembering all of the crews of the V-force, hopefully a fitting reminder will be returning to the skies shortly.
On the matter of being a 'Ground-Pounding POS' I had the great privilege of spending an afternoon in the RAF Club recently, in the company of a great many ex-aircrew who transferred to FC for all sorts of reasons, some of whom formed the core of the Branch after WWII. Strangely none felt the need to address me in the manner above, especially those who had seen action, and saw all who contributed to the fight as part of a big team, rather than a childish them and us situation. One of them is an ex-president of our Association - an abbreviated CV can be found here.
Anyway, 2 of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse are here - where's ABIW - he's normally up for a spot of FC bashing...
Re: RAF Scampton closing before it opens?
When I was based at Scampton in 1977-80, we had an example of Guy Gibson's 'office' parked by the main gate, together with a selection of dummy weapons. A complete Lancaster! Fortunately it's still alive and well and is now based at East Kirkby.
By rights there should now be Vulcan parked where the Lancaster was back then.
By rights there should now be Vulcan parked where the Lancaster was back then.