Pay As You Dine has emptied the Dining Room(Of diners)
PAYD definately does suck! Had the pleasure of two weeks at a fighter jock base "somewhere north of a large golf course" and was ready to slit my wrists by the end of it! We were sure by the end of it that mess staff had mis-interpreted the concept of PAYD, because, especially at breakfast, if you chose one item that wasn't "core menu" you had to pay for the rest of the food at the non-core menu rate as well! SOP at brekkie was for everyone to order their permitted 5 core menu items (no more!) regardless of whether they intended to eat it or not, because the servings were so small! Everybody puts their unused bits on a plate in the middle, then the rest help themselves!
Crazy concept. As has been said many times already, all we wanted was to tick when we ate and when we didnt, none of this "core menu vs non core menu" stuff!
Crazy concept. As has been said many times already, all we wanted was to tick when we ate and when we didnt, none of this "core menu vs non core menu" stuff!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lyneham
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just come back from a works trip to St Andrews. I don't expect much from messes; just a bed slightly narrower than my shoulders, central heating that only works in summer, a shower that doesn't get hot or fast enough, a few unnecessarily leather chairs in ante-rooms and an overused bar to help you ignore it all.
But a PAYD breakfast really was an unwelcome surprise. Having a portion of OJ measured out then served to me, butter and jam being optional extras with a slice of toast and the whole ar$e of 'core menu' items where I'm sure some poor to$$er has to count out the number of beans that are served should you ever be bothered to order them.
Dinner the night before away from the mess (downtown from a chippy) was much better. But I suppose that's the point .....
But a PAYD breakfast really was an unwelcome surprise. Having a portion of OJ measured out then served to me, butter and jam being optional extras with a slice of toast and the whole ar$e of 'core menu' items where I'm sure some poor to$$er has to count out the number of beans that are served should you ever be bothered to order them.
Dinner the night before away from the mess (downtown from a chippy) was much better. But I suppose that's the point .....
PAYD
Time to add my two pen'th to the argument.
I haven't read the whole thread cos it got a bit samey so at the risk of repeating other peoples sentiments I think PAYD is (or should be) a great system.
I moved out of the mess last year but was always thoroughly irritated by the amount of money I spent on meals I never ate. The main reason for my complaint was the completely inflexible meal times. I don't like to eat at 6 o clock and would prefer eating much later. The trouble with that is you end up with two hour old slops unfit for human consumption.
I think this all stems from the fact that there are now companies making money from our messes and they don't like PAYD because it erodes their profit margins.
If PAYD was given a fair crack I think meals should cost a little more and actually be cooked FRESH (ok roast meats/veggies being the exception) and to order, with a limited menu. I have lost count of the number of times I went into the mess and was mildly excited by the prospect of a Sirloin/Fillet only to be presented with something vaguely resembling Ghandi's flip flop!
It obviously didn't happen like that and so PAYD was not really trialled properly.
Hope that made some sense.
Not really sure how the RAF ever stood legally when you were ordered to pay for something you had no intention of eating just because you lived in. I would have prefered to live in but to opt out of the food and paid for a meal as and when I decided to eat it.
BV
I haven't read the whole thread cos it got a bit samey so at the risk of repeating other peoples sentiments I think PAYD is (or should be) a great system.
I moved out of the mess last year but was always thoroughly irritated by the amount of money I spent on meals I never ate. The main reason for my complaint was the completely inflexible meal times. I don't like to eat at 6 o clock and would prefer eating much later. The trouble with that is you end up with two hour old slops unfit for human consumption.
I think this all stems from the fact that there are now companies making money from our messes and they don't like PAYD because it erodes their profit margins.
If PAYD was given a fair crack I think meals should cost a little more and actually be cooked FRESH (ok roast meats/veggies being the exception) and to order, with a limited menu. I have lost count of the number of times I went into the mess and was mildly excited by the prospect of a Sirloin/Fillet only to be presented with something vaguely resembling Ghandi's flip flop!
It obviously didn't happen like that and so PAYD was not really trialled properly.
Hope that made some sense.
Not really sure how the RAF ever stood legally when you were ordered to pay for something you had no intention of eating just because you lived in. I would have prefered to live in but to opt out of the food and paid for a meal as and when I decided to eat it.
BV
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree with Bob Viking, PAYD should be a great thing, however; I have just come from a certain Scottish base where PAYD has destroyed mess life, the food is appalling and the portions are so small you have no other option then to fill up on bread! I am all for PAYD [IF] it is done correctly but the airforce doesn't seem to know how to do that! It is sad that a good idea has been destroyed by p*ss poor execution!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Agreed. And to top it all, they expect to take over our bars and close down potential competition, such as Squadron bars!!! They will never get away with it.
Bob, if the food was so bad, why didnt you complain, where I am, we get steak twice a week, a fish course every night, deserts from heaven... someone somewhere is skimping. Why doesnt your mess adopt true PAYD, with supplementary costs at lunchtime? the profits from an overpacked lunch easily cover additional expenses at breakfast/Dinner. I would suggest that if you had not experienced abortionised PAYD as yet you give it a whirl. You may be unpleasantly surprised.
Then ask yourself, is such more expensive meagre muck worth loosing cheap bar priveledges and discount summer Balls? Loss of all squadron bars? Eating in MCofficers mess? Mess life as a whole? I personally dont think it is, and am sticking to myguns when I say abortionised PAYD will be the end of many customs and cheap beer in the Officers/SNcO Messes.
Bob, if the food was so bad, why didnt you complain, where I am, we get steak twice a week, a fish course every night, deserts from heaven... someone somewhere is skimping. Why doesnt your mess adopt true PAYD, with supplementary costs at lunchtime? the profits from an overpacked lunch easily cover additional expenses at breakfast/Dinner. I would suggest that if you had not experienced abortionised PAYD as yet you give it a whirl. You may be unpleasantly surprised.
Then ask yourself, is such more expensive meagre muck worth loosing cheap bar priveledges and discount summer Balls? Loss of all squadron bars? Eating in MCofficers mess? Mess life as a whole? I personally dont think it is, and am sticking to myguns when I say abortionised PAYD will be the end of many customs and cheap beer in the Officers/SNcO Messes.
Mbga
How was that steak/fish if you arrived 10 minutes before the end of the meal time? Still as succulent and juicy?!
My main complaint was always the times of the meals to be honest and the fact that if you arrived late you ate cr@p.
The food at the beginning was always much better. Still, you had to fight your way through the queue of eager blunties to get anywhere near it!
BV
My main complaint was always the times of the meals to be honest and the fact that if you arrived late you ate cr@p.
The food at the beginning was always much better. Still, you had to fight your way through the queue of eager blunties to get anywhere near it!
BV
Guest
Posts: n/a
Aye, I agree at times quality can vary, but am a reeet noorthern monkey and am not too fussed, as long as its not corned beef hash!
I suppose its a function of what you are used to. For me, the food is better than eating out most nights. And the scran is a damn sight better than I used to get as a kiddie, so I am as happy as a pig in the proverbial!
I suppose its a function of what you are used to. For me, the food is better than eating out most nights. And the scran is a damn sight better than I used to get as a kiddie, so I am as happy as a pig in the proverbial!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: CYPRUS
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAYD
Southside,
What a load of tosh! PAYD has been nothing other than a money saving scheme since its birth. The basic facts are that the MOD did not want to continue having to provide ORs/Officers etc 3 a meals a day for the circa 3 quid a day they were being charged.
All the cr** about it being trialled and being a success - the one-star in charge of the project was told to get it introduced. The results are where PAYD is in use there are empty messes (unless you have no choice), unhealthy eating patterns or worse, limited eating as airmen run out of money. As for the nutrional input from the volumes of micrwave meals being consumed......
Once again, with the help of indivuduals like you, a great part of Service life has been destroyed - all for saving of money to please the civil servants!!!
What a load of tosh! PAYD has been nothing other than a money saving scheme since its birth. The basic facts are that the MOD did not want to continue having to provide ORs/Officers etc 3 a meals a day for the circa 3 quid a day they were being charged.
All the cr** about it being trialled and being a success - the one-star in charge of the project was told to get it introduced. The results are where PAYD is in use there are empty messes (unless you have no choice), unhealthy eating patterns or worse, limited eating as airmen run out of money. As for the nutrional input from the volumes of micrwave meals being consumed......
Once again, with the help of indivuduals like you, a great part of Service life has been destroyed - all for saving of money to please the civil servants!!!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The Wonderful Midlands
Age: 53
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
limited eating as airmen run out of money
What about those airmen that choose to live out privately in theie own homes? Do you suggest that they are made to come and eat in the mess also "just in case" they cannot afford to eat after managing their rent, council tax, electricity.....etc.
Some of these airmen are paid a better wage than junior officers, but do you think that we as officers are obviously far more sensible than the baldricks, and would never dream of being in such a position?
As has been previously stated in this thread, the reasons the messes are empty is because people are voting with their feet. For years, people (including airmen) have been buying their food elsewhere, on top of paying mess charges, because they simply do not want to eat when they are forced to eat and do not want to eat the remains of lunch rehashed for dinner, and prefer the options that eating elsewhere gives.
Simply, now that people are no longer paying for meals they do not want, the obligation is no longer there to turn up and eat those meals, hence the messes are emptier.
a great part of Service life has been destroyed
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: CYPRUS
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Rocket,
You obviously have not been a sqn cdr and seen some of the stupid financial cock-ups airmen and yes my mistake!! to victimize that group because also junior officers sometimes are as bad too. But you issed the point - there will now be many who run out of money at the end of the month, yes I agree there are many who live out and do very well, superb. I suspect with modern lines of credit many 17 and 18 years olds will add it onto their credit cards/loans etc. I could not believe some of the debts acrued by these lads and lasses.
From my experience airmen's messes are pretty busy - it is the OM that has been in decline. BV mentioned he thought PAYD was a good thing if introuduced correctly. He outlined he wanted more flexible hours to eat, fresh food, more choice - come on wake up. The MOD could not afford the current system if everyone actually took all the meals they were entitled too. Does anyone believe that more flexible menus and timings can brought in without significant increases in cost? Get real!!
The new system will cost the individual considerably more to eat to the same stanard then the old one. I do not see 'timings' improving unless we are talking about late night burger bar facilties. The reason OMs' have suffered is that they failed to keep up with the needs of the younger livers-in, whose wishes needed to be respected more. Over recent months I have visited a number of Messes where there is a good living -in crowd enhanced by a Mess that has voted to offer better facilties - this had nothing to do with the money saving scheme of PAYD.
Remember for about 3 pounds a day a service person could obtain 3 square meals. Yes at certain time periods but there was no shopping, no prep, no washing up. If you really did not like the current system you could live out - see how far your 90 quid goes then not to mention the time factor. I say again, PAYD is a cost saving measure for the MOD that has once again detracted from the standards/quality of life offered in the Service.
You obviously have not been a sqn cdr and seen some of the stupid financial cock-ups airmen and yes my mistake!! to victimize that group because also junior officers sometimes are as bad too. But you issed the point - there will now be many who run out of money at the end of the month, yes I agree there are many who live out and do very well, superb. I suspect with modern lines of credit many 17 and 18 years olds will add it onto their credit cards/loans etc. I could not believe some of the debts acrued by these lads and lasses.
From my experience airmen's messes are pretty busy - it is the OM that has been in decline. BV mentioned he thought PAYD was a good thing if introuduced correctly. He outlined he wanted more flexible hours to eat, fresh food, more choice - come on wake up. The MOD could not afford the current system if everyone actually took all the meals they were entitled too. Does anyone believe that more flexible menus and timings can brought in without significant increases in cost? Get real!!
The new system will cost the individual considerably more to eat to the same stanard then the old one. I do not see 'timings' improving unless we are talking about late night burger bar facilties. The reason OMs' have suffered is that they failed to keep up with the needs of the younger livers-in, whose wishes needed to be respected more. Over recent months I have visited a number of Messes where there is a good living -in crowd enhanced by a Mess that has voted to offer better facilties - this had nothing to do with the money saving scheme of PAYD.
Remember for about 3 pounds a day a service person could obtain 3 square meals. Yes at certain time periods but there was no shopping, no prep, no washing up. If you really did not like the current system you could live out - see how far your 90 quid goes then not to mention the time factor. I say again, PAYD is a cost saving measure for the MOD that has once again detracted from the standards/quality of life offered in the Service.
PAUL101 - 101% correct, mate!
But all part of the creeping cancer of contractorisation which has, for the most part, destroyed what the Service once was.
But all part of the creeping cancer of contractorisation which has, for the most part, destroyed what the Service once was.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: northside
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whats wrong with contractorisation? Surely, contracting out certain aspects of work is a good thing. Contract cleaners, Catering, Domestics etc. It makes sound economic sense to contract those out.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Rocket.
Unfortunately certain people are that reckless with their cash. There is an order that appears weekly in Leuchars SRO’s with regard to persons who had spent all their money and could not afford to buy food for the rest of the month. It is embarrassing that members of the armed forces are not able to discipline their spending to be able to afford food!
Unfortunately certain people are that reckless with their cash. There is an order that appears weekly in Leuchars SRO’s with regard to persons who had spent all their money and could not afford to buy food for the rest of the month. It is embarrassing that members of the armed forces are not able to discipline their spending to be able to afford food!
whats wrong with contractorisation? Surely, contracting out certain aspects of work is a good thing. Contract cleaners, Catering, Domestics etc. It makes sound economic sense to contract those out.
Now we have civvy contract cleaning staff, our carpet is hoovered once a fortnight, bins are emptied around 10am, meaning that full bins are left throughout the building overnight, just adding to the risk of any fire spreading quickly. How can using a civvy contractor be cheaper than using erks, who would otherwise be sitting around the crew room having finished their work and handed in all tools and are just waiting to be released.
And I know who does a better job.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Service food going down the pan ? Army influence maybe ?
I remember when i was a teenager in Gibraltar, food in the Airmens Mess was superb, then after a year the army came in to live upstairs on the 3rd floor and things went 'joint service', omg what a turnabout! Mess turned into a down market canteen fit for, well, not human beings anyway. Mess manager was a terrific bloke who took huge pride in his little empire and the food was the best on the Rock, no exaggeration whatsoever. But he soon headed for a nervous breakdown, and was lucky to reach the end of his tour soon afterwards.
Everything went to the dogs, food, Naafi, way of life, we were expected to salute Ruperts who were the other side of the football field, sgt majors and the likes shouting their heads orf whilst some of us were sleeping orf night shifts. Turned into a living hell.
And there's no improvement then ? decades later ?
Condolences to you all.............
I remember when i was a teenager in Gibraltar, food in the Airmens Mess was superb, then after a year the army came in to live upstairs on the 3rd floor and things went 'joint service', omg what a turnabout! Mess turned into a down market canteen fit for, well, not human beings anyway. Mess manager was a terrific bloke who took huge pride in his little empire and the food was the best on the Rock, no exaggeration whatsoever. But he soon headed for a nervous breakdown, and was lucky to reach the end of his tour soon afterwards.
Everything went to the dogs, food, Naafi, way of life, we were expected to salute Ruperts who were the other side of the football field, sgt majors and the likes shouting their heads orf whilst some of us were sleeping orf night shifts. Turned into a living hell.
And there's no improvement then ? decades later ?
Condolences to you all.............
Weren't we, the Hossifers, once taught to ensure that 3 main items must always be provided to those we purported to lead?
Those 3 items?
MEALS
MAIL
MONEY
....and doesn't an Army also march on its stomach?
So why was the stupidity of this ill-conceived PAYD allowed to inflict itself upon the Armed Forces?
Those 3 items?
MEALS
MONEY
....and doesn't an Army also march on its stomach?
So why was the stupidity of this ill-conceived PAYD allowed to inflict itself upon the Armed Forces?
Contractorisation is all very well in limited areas - in many its considerably worse. Who honestly thinks that the current phone system is any good (or cheaper). PAYD is similarly inappropriate. If we had entirely self catering accom then fine but we seem to want to mix service traditions and mess life with some ill-conceived and unworkable system.
Someone above quoted more flexible meal times and less than fresh food towards the end of meal times - in my experience PAYD is no different. Meal times are not any longer because its all done on the cheap. Late meals are a thing of the past - contractors do not stay late on request (or orders). I've gone from home base to a PAYD mess a missed the meal time - no meal, no rates to cover either. And why does my 2 night det cost me £8 plus when the other bloke's costs something like 44p in a normal mess. And if it was claimable where's the saving over the original system.
Rant off.
Someone above quoted more flexible meal times and less than fresh food towards the end of meal times - in my experience PAYD is no different. Meal times are not any longer because its all done on the cheap. Late meals are a thing of the past - contractors do not stay late on request (or orders). I've gone from home base to a PAYD mess a missed the meal time - no meal, no rates to cover either. And why does my 2 night det cost me £8 plus when the other bloke's costs something like 44p in a normal mess. And if it was claimable where's the saving over the original system.
Rant off.