Apache - The Scotsman Strikes Again
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Flygunz
Anybody that operates out of Wattisham has my deepest sympathy and I would not endeavour to upset them. Having been posted there on my 1st tour at the end of the 70s and originating from London, I thought I was on the set of Deliverance.
Regards
retard
Anybody that operates out of Wattisham has my deepest sympathy and I would not endeavour to upset them. Having been posted there on my 1st tour at the end of the 70s and originating from London, I thought I was on the set of Deliverance.
Regards
retard
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It's been a while since the last post was on here bashing the Apache.
I wonder, Poor Pongo why you think that 2 from 8 Apache is a good return? I bet you think that ten hours a month is a good flying rate! One more thing, why should your boss buy a beer for the tech's to get aircraft online? Surely thats why the Army pay them. Great concept, get the Army to give your boss the wages for all the Sqn Tech's and only pay them if they produce the goods. That could catch on.
Flygunz, if you were in the sweet shop when the sweets were bought I wish you'd have asked the shopkeeper just how hungry you get eating these sweets! She's very needy! Great fun though, I bet!
I wonder, Poor Pongo why you think that 2 from 8 Apache is a good return? I bet you think that ten hours a month is a good flying rate! One more thing, why should your boss buy a beer for the tech's to get aircraft online? Surely thats why the Army pay them. Great concept, get the Army to give your boss the wages for all the Sqn Tech's and only pay them if they produce the goods. That could catch on.
Flygunz, if you were in the sweet shop when the sweets were bought I wish you'd have asked the shopkeeper just how hungry you get eating these sweets! She's very needy! Great fun though, I bet!
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It is perfectly acceptable to utter, mention or write the numbers 232 in the Senior Service. But you MUST avoid placing the Letter which is in between the letters E and G in front of the said numbers.
Was is HMS Lancaster who had her Pennant number changed? somebody correct me please
Was is HMS Lancaster who had her Pennant number changed? somebody correct me please
Last edited by vecvechookattack; 12th Jul 2005 at 07:25.
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There are some well off target comments in this thread which pass beyond banter, baiting and mischievousness into unhelpful, ignorant and downright porkies.
So some Apache are unserviceable and I wont gloss over a spares procurement SNAFU at a fairly high level but I have to ask the question why do you want all the Apache serviceable all the time if you don’t need to fly them? Two out of eight on any particular training day will give all your pilots a flight each day – why make the engineers work on aircraft that are not required? I know of no service aircraft engineers that would prefer to see one hour flown off all eight aircraft rather than four or five hours off each of the two.
After a tough and testing exercise taking the full complement of aircraft into the field and using some all of the time and high serviceability levels for the balance it would not be unusual for some aircraft to be carrying faults, which will be rectified on return to base. Here we are touching on the difference between serviceable and battle worthy. Serviceable is everything’s working and generally your engineers will advise you on that. Battle worthy means that some things are not working. The decision to take that aircraft on operations will be a commander’s decision. He may seek engineering advice but it’s a commander’s decision. Now the Apache is classic in this regard, there are so may toys that may not work fully but teamed up with another fully serviceable Apache it can play a full complementary part in battle.
Finally regarding sweetie shop procurement it is naive to think that the Army chose Apache over the other candidates all on its own. There was considerable war gaming involved using all candidate types with differing weapon and sighting system combinations and cost benefit analysis made of the results and a small fleet of all FCR equipped Apache produced the most cost effective solution over all the other types and mixes of types.
Well done 9 Regt AAC a great job done. A good thread too apart from the naval manure about 232?*? which defeats the mortals around here.
Remove Heineken crate and run for cover.
So some Apache are unserviceable and I wont gloss over a spares procurement SNAFU at a fairly high level but I have to ask the question why do you want all the Apache serviceable all the time if you don’t need to fly them? Two out of eight on any particular training day will give all your pilots a flight each day – why make the engineers work on aircraft that are not required? I know of no service aircraft engineers that would prefer to see one hour flown off all eight aircraft rather than four or five hours off each of the two.
After a tough and testing exercise taking the full complement of aircraft into the field and using some all of the time and high serviceability levels for the balance it would not be unusual for some aircraft to be carrying faults, which will be rectified on return to base. Here we are touching on the difference between serviceable and battle worthy. Serviceable is everything’s working and generally your engineers will advise you on that. Battle worthy means that some things are not working. The decision to take that aircraft on operations will be a commander’s decision. He may seek engineering advice but it’s a commander’s decision. Now the Apache is classic in this regard, there are so may toys that may not work fully but teamed up with another fully serviceable Apache it can play a full complementary part in battle.
Finally regarding sweetie shop procurement it is naive to think that the Army chose Apache over the other candidates all on its own. There was considerable war gaming involved using all candidate types with differing weapon and sighting system combinations and cost benefit analysis made of the results and a small fleet of all FCR equipped Apache produced the most cost effective solution over all the other types and mixes of types.
Well done 9 Regt AAC a great job done. A good thread too apart from the naval manure about 232?*? which defeats the mortals around here.
Remove Heineken crate and run for cover.
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Lowball,
I remember the detailed comparative evaluations. Mission profile to Bosnia was one for example. Pity they did all the comparisons and then changed to heavier, thirstier and much more expensive (including integration and validation cost) RR (actually mainly French) engines. I was with the competition T700/701-C team at the time. Still, no point being bitter. Just hope they are delivering reliable power for the already very busy crews.
I remember the detailed comparative evaluations. Mission profile to Bosnia was one for example. Pity they did all the comparisons and then changed to heavier, thirstier and much more expensive (including integration and validation cost) RR (actually mainly French) engines. I was with the competition T700/701-C team at the time. Still, no point being bitter. Just hope they are delivering reliable power for the already very busy crews.
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Lowball,
Hmmh - I can see where you are coming from, but you obviously aint looking at it from our (I include Owe Ver Der Chooote in the Royal We) in that it is pretty depressing to turn up for work in the full knowledge that you are going to spend your day ground running and airtesting which prevents full mission planning, sortie development and use of the simulator for that all too important trigger action.
Come and spend some time here at Dishforth and you will get a gist of what we are talking about. Binge flying is great and we all know we can get our skills and drills back up to speed pretty quickly, but how come Wallop has an MTP for less aircraft and surely there is better use of our time!
Now take it back it to DAAvn that you want to Moth ball his other 6 aircraft in between major exercises and Ops- then watch the minimums, currency and comptency all go by the wayside (15 hours a month - your having a laugh aren't you)
Now where was your crate of beer?
Hmmh - I can see where you are coming from, but you obviously aint looking at it from our (I include Owe Ver Der Chooote in the Royal We) in that it is pretty depressing to turn up for work in the full knowledge that you are going to spend your day ground running and airtesting which prevents full mission planning, sortie development and use of the simulator for that all too important trigger action.
Come and spend some time here at Dishforth and you will get a gist of what we are talking about. Binge flying is great and we all know we can get our skills and drills back up to speed pretty quickly, but how come Wallop has an MTP for less aircraft and surely there is better use of our time!
Now take it back it to DAAvn that you want to Moth ball his other 6 aircraft in between major exercises and Ops- then watch the minimums, currency and comptency all go by the wayside (15 hours a month - your having a laugh aren't you)
Now where was your crate of beer?
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Low Ball.
I have to agree with Front seater and OVC, life in an Attack Sqn ain't without its problems. At the moment when we are outside of "big pushes" Ex E-S etc 2 from 8 is a good day. The REME are tired and hacked off, for so long it's been a case of the tail wagging the dog, they don't really like it now that the dog is barking back. Don't get me wrong I've got some very good REME mates, but its above our pay band that the problems exist. Thank you for the pat on the back, I'll pass it round the lads on the Sqn
Poor Pongo, if your boss has got to resort to bribing your REME to give you aircraft on the line, that is pish poor, does he buy the aircrew a beer if the fly more than 15 hours in two month (cos you won't be getting it monthly!), or the AAC groundcrew for pumping 15,000 ltr's of AVTUR a day? Thought not!
This aircraft is the best thing that the MOD could have bought, but its demands are very excessive, both on manpower and spares. For everyday flying the mix ain't right yet.
I have to agree with Front seater and OVC, life in an Attack Sqn ain't without its problems. At the moment when we are outside of "big pushes" Ex E-S etc 2 from 8 is a good day. The REME are tired and hacked off, for so long it's been a case of the tail wagging the dog, they don't really like it now that the dog is barking back. Don't get me wrong I've got some very good REME mates, but its above our pay band that the problems exist. Thank you for the pat on the back, I'll pass it round the lads on the Sqn
Poor Pongo, if your boss has got to resort to bribing your REME to give you aircraft on the line, that is pish poor, does he buy the aircrew a beer if the fly more than 15 hours in two month (cos you won't be getting it monthly!), or the AAC groundcrew for pumping 15,000 ltr's of AVTUR a day? Thought not!
This aircraft is the best thing that the MOD could have bought, but its demands are very excessive, both on manpower and spares. For everyday flying the mix ain't right yet.
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Front Seater and AHQHI656SQN.
Thanks for your responses that encourage me to press on and offer you something that worked for me at a time of very poor serviceability. OK it was Lynx then but comparisons can be made.
In case you don’t know who I am my background is from Army flying training with several tours at Wallop, managing big fleets and centralized work practices, as well as regimental service.
OK for this you need to think outside the Sqn box, do not be parochial and make sure you have big cajunnas, stick to your guns it can work. It did for me.
Centralise the aircraft, give them to the REMEs, give them some norms or minimums, have tight central control over bidding.
So give the REMEs all the aircraft (biggest hurdle here will be Sqn Comds) and make sure someone, say Regt QHI or 2i/c is in charge of the tasking.
Some norms for consideration:
· Regt Ex max effort
· Sqn Ex (deployed) full compliment
· Training (daily use) 2 ac per day per Sqn
· Sqn surge trg from camp 6/8 once per month
· Have weekly, at least, planning/tasking meetings to resolve issues
You can fill in to suit your requirements. Do create norms which are achievable and which you as a Sqn can meet. Don’t have the REMEs working on and pushing out ac which you cannot use. Do handover slots that you cannot fill to the other Sqn or return the ac to the REMEs without delay. Make allowances for spare/reserve ac in your plans.
Comparison: Date 1985, location BAOR, I’ll let you guess where, Lynx pilots down to less than 10hrs per month and getting grumpy. Initiated the system and within 2 months all pilots in station were in the 20-30 hrs per month bracket. Pilots flew every day they could. 8-10 hrs per day required on the ac with hot running changes, Sqn/Flts Comds conducted full estb trg monthly and the REMEs were happy. Hell this is utopia!
If I can be of help call or PM me or visit me you know where I work. In real terms you don’t need my help you can do this it just need cajunnas.
To both of you and your pals its still a well done from us I think you are all doing a great job
LB
Thanks for your responses that encourage me to press on and offer you something that worked for me at a time of very poor serviceability. OK it was Lynx then but comparisons can be made.
In case you don’t know who I am my background is from Army flying training with several tours at Wallop, managing big fleets and centralized work practices, as well as regimental service.
OK for this you need to think outside the Sqn box, do not be parochial and make sure you have big cajunnas, stick to your guns it can work. It did for me.
Centralise the aircraft, give them to the REMEs, give them some norms or minimums, have tight central control over bidding.
So give the REMEs all the aircraft (biggest hurdle here will be Sqn Comds) and make sure someone, say Regt QHI or 2i/c is in charge of the tasking.
Some norms for consideration:
· Regt Ex max effort
· Sqn Ex (deployed) full compliment
· Training (daily use) 2 ac per day per Sqn
· Sqn surge trg from camp 6/8 once per month
· Have weekly, at least, planning/tasking meetings to resolve issues
You can fill in to suit your requirements. Do create norms which are achievable and which you as a Sqn can meet. Don’t have the REMEs working on and pushing out ac which you cannot use. Do handover slots that you cannot fill to the other Sqn or return the ac to the REMEs without delay. Make allowances for spare/reserve ac in your plans.
Comparison: Date 1985, location BAOR, I’ll let you guess where, Lynx pilots down to less than 10hrs per month and getting grumpy. Initiated the system and within 2 months all pilots in station were in the 20-30 hrs per month bracket. Pilots flew every day they could. 8-10 hrs per day required on the ac with hot running changes, Sqn/Flts Comds conducted full estb trg monthly and the REMEs were happy. Hell this is utopia!
If I can be of help call or PM me or visit me you know where I work. In real terms you don’t need my help you can do this it just need cajunnas.
To both of you and your pals its still a well done from us I think you are all doing a great job
LB
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Low Ball,
You are surely not suggesting an Attack Helicopter Force (AHF) just like Joint Force Harrier, Support Helicopter Force, Commando Helicopter Force etc. Let all those with Direct Entry AAC careers raise their hands to the heavens!
I agree with you Low Ball-totally. I too was a victim in the Lynx debacle and am fed up with not achieving currency or comptency and to make matters worse I can't even keep skills going in the Sim as I am too busy doing ground runs and airtests.
I think it will happen anyway to be honest, a potential move of all AH to Wattisham will see the formation of an AH Force that will despatch AH where and when required (sorry 16 Air Asslt-you had a try, now hand over the toys to the rest of the military!). This will revolve in the pooling and central control of these assets to ensure that (for example) all the 300 hour servicing doesn't happen at the same time in the same Sqn or after 4 years of knowing that AH was going to sea all 4 of the embarked AH go in for anti corrosion mods at the same time - that kind of last minute . dom doesn't happen anymore-does it?
Still looking for your crate Low Ball - breakfast beers always the best. Personally Stellar rather than Heinekin!
Oh, and I haven't got a clue who you are - you are talking sense but remember you are protected at Wallop and why not come and spend some time with us (in barracks or on exercise) to get a feel of what life is like. Then you may be able to meld the expectations and reality of the trg environment with that of Regtl duty in the AH era.
You are surely not suggesting an Attack Helicopter Force (AHF) just like Joint Force Harrier, Support Helicopter Force, Commando Helicopter Force etc. Let all those with Direct Entry AAC careers raise their hands to the heavens!
I agree with you Low Ball-totally. I too was a victim in the Lynx debacle and am fed up with not achieving currency or comptency and to make matters worse I can't even keep skills going in the Sim as I am too busy doing ground runs and airtests.
I think it will happen anyway to be honest, a potential move of all AH to Wattisham will see the formation of an AH Force that will despatch AH where and when required (sorry 16 Air Asslt-you had a try, now hand over the toys to the rest of the military!). This will revolve in the pooling and central control of these assets to ensure that (for example) all the 300 hour servicing doesn't happen at the same time in the same Sqn or after 4 years of knowing that AH was going to sea all 4 of the embarked AH go in for anti corrosion mods at the same time - that kind of last minute . dom doesn't happen anymore-does it?
Still looking for your crate Low Ball - breakfast beers always the best. Personally Stellar rather than Heinekin!
Oh, and I haven't got a clue who you are - you are talking sense but remember you are protected at Wallop and why not come and spend some time with us (in barracks or on exercise) to get a feel of what life is like. Then you may be able to meld the expectations and reality of the trg environment with that of Regtl duty in the AH era.
Last edited by Front Seater; 14th Jul 2005 at 09:38.
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Lowball,
Don't entirely agree with your last post. QHIs are for sticks and poles. Regt 2IC has far too much on his plate with security, equipment care, H&S etc to deal with tasking. The "Someone" in charge of tasking is called the Ops Officer, who also worries about the other range of regimental amusements such as operations, exercises, training etc. And, surprise surprise, we have weekly planning meetings. So, thanks for your advice, it's already happening. The only area of debate remaining is that of centralised vs decentralised servicing. I have seen and experienced both, they both have their own merits. I remain on the fence on that one.
Don't entirely agree with your last post. QHIs are for sticks and poles. Regt 2IC has far too much on his plate with security, equipment care, H&S etc to deal with tasking. The "Someone" in charge of tasking is called the Ops Officer, who also worries about the other range of regimental amusements such as operations, exercises, training etc. And, surprise surprise, we have weekly planning meetings. So, thanks for your advice, it's already happening. The only area of debate remaining is that of centralised vs decentralised servicing. I have seen and experienced both, they both have their own merits. I remain on the fence on that one.
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Buying the beers
AHQHI:
1. My boss certainly doesn't want to be buying the beers for every aircrew mate who makes 15 hrs a month. His - no doubt lofty - wages wouldn't stretch to buying for about 80% of them every month. (If you don't believe come and look at the flying rates on our currency computer).
2. Buying the beers occasionally for a good job done isn't pish poor - its leadership. Delivering a full house is hard work and an occasional pat on the back works wonders. And delivering 8 out of 8 every day isn't 'just their job' which is the point. Taking a 'them and us' attitude to supporting the REME in delivering us the aircraft we need certainly ain't gonna help. It's actively working together with them and letting them know that their efforts matter that consistently delivers us at least 2 and often more. (6 out of 6 two days this week with 4 and a spare from 6 the other 2 days).
I certainly wouldn't want to say that life in an Attack Sqn is without it's problems. But where I am - despite the hard work required by all - we are flying quite reasonable rates and doing some good value training. Generally much more focused and appropriate than on previous types.
By the way, good job on the boat. Clearly a very professional job from everyone concerned.
Sorry, just edited to say that although I'm not in the full loop on this, the outline put forward by Low Ball (I know who you are, LB, BTW
) look pretty much like how our business is planned (in painful detail) a long way in advance.
1. My boss certainly doesn't want to be buying the beers for every aircrew mate who makes 15 hrs a month. His - no doubt lofty - wages wouldn't stretch to buying for about 80% of them every month. (If you don't believe come and look at the flying rates on our currency computer).
2. Buying the beers occasionally for a good job done isn't pish poor - its leadership. Delivering a full house is hard work and an occasional pat on the back works wonders. And delivering 8 out of 8 every day isn't 'just their job' which is the point. Taking a 'them and us' attitude to supporting the REME in delivering us the aircraft we need certainly ain't gonna help. It's actively working together with them and letting them know that their efforts matter that consistently delivers us at least 2 and often more. (6 out of 6 two days this week with 4 and a spare from 6 the other 2 days).
I certainly wouldn't want to say that life in an Attack Sqn is without it's problems. But where I am - despite the hard work required by all - we are flying quite reasonable rates and doing some good value training. Generally much more focused and appropriate than on previous types.
By the way, good job on the boat. Clearly a very professional job from everyone concerned.
Sorry, just edited to say that although I'm not in the full loop on this, the outline put forward by Low Ball (I know who you are, LB, BTW
) look pretty much like how our business is planned (in painful detail) a long way in advance.
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"The helicopter repair figures came to light after Mike Hancock, a Liberal Democrat MP who sat on the Commons defence committee in the last parliament, was contacted by a member of the Army Air Corps about the Apache. Prompted by the insiders' reports of mechanical failure and technical problems, Mr Hancock tabled parliamentary questions on helicopter readiness."
I wonder who it was who felt strongly enough to talk to an MP about the Apache issues. I bet Tommo was chuffed to bits about that one!
The customer satisfaction quote goes something like; "if you're unhappy then tell us, if you're happy then tell everyone".
I wonder who it was who felt strongly enough to talk to an MP about the Apache issues. I bet Tommo was chuffed to bits about that one!
The customer satisfaction quote goes something like; "if you're unhappy then tell us, if you're happy then tell everyone".
