New Pension Scheme
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Oggin
For AFPS75:
Officers:
Accrual rate even over 16 years from age 21, to reach 28.5% of representative pay at the 16 year point. Thereafter, a slower even rate over the next 18 years to reach 48.5% of representative pay at 34 years service from age 21 (Age 55).
Airmen:
Accrual rate even over 37 years from age 18 to age 55, reaching 48.5% of representative pay after 37 years.
For AFPS05:
Everyone:
Even rate of accrual over 35 years from start of full pay service, reaching 50% of final pensionable salary after 35 years. With the opportunity to earn increased accrual up to a maximum of 40 years for further service beyond 35 years. (widows pension 62.5% of members accrued pension, but capped at about 37.33 years service).
Regards
Ginseng
Officers:
Accrual rate even over 16 years from age 21, to reach 28.5% of representative pay at the 16 year point. Thereafter, a slower even rate over the next 18 years to reach 48.5% of representative pay at 34 years service from age 21 (Age 55).
Airmen:
Accrual rate even over 37 years from age 18 to age 55, reaching 48.5% of representative pay after 37 years.
For AFPS05:
Everyone:
Even rate of accrual over 35 years from start of full pay service, reaching 50% of final pensionable salary after 35 years. With the opportunity to earn increased accrual up to a maximum of 40 years for further service beyond 35 years. (widows pension 62.5% of members accrued pension, but capped at about 37.33 years service).
Regards
Ginseng
Last edited by Ginseng; 29th Jun 2005 at 18:00.
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Thanks Ginseng; all your efforts on this thread and the other one are very much appreciated 
So is the rate of accrual linear from 28.5% to 48.5%? if not is it laid down somewhere the actual accrual rate per year served?
I'm still confused as to how the RN justifies the new pension which states for an immediate full pension you have to retire at 55 - our rules for officers state that under a Full Term Commission you have to retire at age 50 unless you make Cdr (Wg Cdr equivalent) or higher. Therefore we will never be able to get a full pension by service alone - we would need to pay to top it up. If we didnt do that we would have a monthly EDP to 55, then a slightly bigger monthly EDP till 65 then the full monty. Or does the 2 EDP lump sums take this into account ........ hmmmm?
Unless of course whilst I've been away sunning myself in Spamland over the last 2 years they've changed the retirement age?
Another question - is normal retirement age for RN FTC(A) (=PA Spine) 55?
Oggin
So is the rate of accrual linear from 28.5% to 48.5%? if not is it laid down somewhere the actual accrual rate per year served?
I'm still confused as to how the RN justifies the new pension which states for an immediate full pension you have to retire at 55 - our rules for officers state that under a Full Term Commission you have to retire at age 50 unless you make Cdr (Wg Cdr equivalent) or higher. Therefore we will never be able to get a full pension by service alone - we would need to pay to top it up. If we didnt do that we would have a monthly EDP to 55, then a slightly bigger monthly EDP till 65 then the full monty. Or does the 2 EDP lump sums take this into account ........ hmmmm?
Unless of course whilst I've been away sunning myself in Spamland over the last 2 years they've changed the retirement age?
Another question - is normal retirement age for RN FTC(A) (=PA Spine) 55?
Oggin
Last edited by Oggin Aviator; 29th Jun 2005 at 07:37.
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Oggin
Yes, the AFPS75 Officers accrual rate is linear from 28.5 to 48.5.
To the best of my knowledge and belief, the AFPS05 scheme rules do not allow an immediate pension, as distinct from an EDP, ever to be paid from retirement before 55 in cases that are unconnected with invaliding on medical or similar grounds, but I am always willing to be corrected. Whether RN terms of service might be adjusted to allow people service to 55, when their current engagements leave them a bit short, is a matter for the Navy personnel staffs - I cannot possibly answer it.
Likewise, I cannot personally guarantee that RN "PAS" are on engagements to 55, although I suspect that that is the case.
If these matters are not clarified in your OTT pack, then you must go back and ask the questions. You cannot make a full and fair comparison without knowing the answers.
Regards
Ginseng
To the best of my knowledge and belief, the AFPS05 scheme rules do not allow an immediate pension, as distinct from an EDP, ever to be paid from retirement before 55 in cases that are unconnected with invaliding on medical or similar grounds, but I am always willing to be corrected. Whether RN terms of service might be adjusted to allow people service to 55, when their current engagements leave them a bit short, is a matter for the Navy personnel staffs - I cannot possibly answer it.
Likewise, I cannot personally guarantee that RN "PAS" are on engagements to 55, although I suspect that that is the case.
If these matters are not clarified in your OTT pack, then you must go back and ask the questions. You cannot make a full and fair comparison without knowing the answers.
Regards
Ginseng
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I'm still confused as to how the RN justifies the new pension which states for an immediate full pension you have to retire at 55 - our rules for officers state that under a Full Term Commission you have to retire at age 50 unless you make Cdr (Wg Cdr equivalent) or higher. Therefore we will never be able to get a full pension by service alone -
That's the whole point about AFPS 05 - government policy is that nobody should get a pension until they are aged 65. But they have given the military a dispensation that allows us to have a pension at age 55. If you are fit and leave before age 55 then the government assume that you will seek employment elsewhere and do not need a pension until you're 65.
So it would seem that Lt Cdrs in the RN, that have not been promoted to Cdr by age 50, will leave with only the EDP. I can't help feeling that that is a bit harsh as it must be damned difficult to start a new career as a civilian at that age - but as long as it's good for the RN........
However, if you are an officer in the RAF, aged below 38, and you sign up for AFPS 05 then your terms of service will be changed to 18/40 to fit in with the new scheme and allow you to have an EDP when you leave. So maybe something similar will happen in the RN and terms of service for Lt Cdrs will be changed.
Regards.
Last edited by LFFC; 29th Jun 2005 at 17:34.
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Just This Once....
Nope - haven't done that, but I did have a look at the stats that compared age against rank in the RAF.
It appears that really "high-flyers" start getting promoted to sqn ldr at age 28/29. Statistically, by the time you get to age 33 the RAF has promoted enough high-flyers to provide them with the number of wg cdrs that they need in the future.
Of course, there will always be some high-flyers that don't get promoted to wg cdr, and others that get promoted to sqn ldr after age 33 that do get further promotion. But the message is that, the longer you're a flt lt after age 33, the less likely it is that you'll get promoted to wg cdr in the future.
So in the future, if you're aged 37 and get offered sqn ldr then your choices seem to be:
1. Take the higher pay and extra flying tour, then stay in the RAF on the Career Spine doing continuous ground tours with little chance of further promotion or flying again.
2. Take the higher pay and flying tour then leave for the airlines at age 40.
3. Reject the promotion and hope for an offer of PAS at age 40 and service to age 55.
Now, let me think about that for a few minutes.........
Nope - haven't done that, but I did have a look at the stats that compared age against rank in the RAF.
It appears that really "high-flyers" start getting promoted to sqn ldr at age 28/29. Statistically, by the time you get to age 33 the RAF has promoted enough high-flyers to provide them with the number of wg cdrs that they need in the future.
Of course, there will always be some high-flyers that don't get promoted to wg cdr, and others that get promoted to sqn ldr after age 33 that do get further promotion. But the message is that, the longer you're a flt lt after age 33, the less likely it is that you'll get promoted to wg cdr in the future.
So in the future, if you're aged 37 and get offered sqn ldr then your choices seem to be:
1. Take the higher pay and extra flying tour, then stay in the RAF on the Career Spine doing continuous ground tours with little chance of further promotion or flying again.
2. Take the higher pay and flying tour then leave for the airlines at age 40.
3. Reject the promotion and hope for an offer of PAS at age 40 and service to age 55.
Now, let me think about that for a few minutes.........
Last edited by LFFC; 30th Jun 2005 at 18:16.
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LFFC,
I am sure there are many thinking the same way, understandably. However, do bear in mind that if you accept PAS, you are accepting an enagement which is still open to competition for promotion. Can you be sure that, if you have aleady refused a promotion, you won't be regarded as having excluded yourself from eligibility for consideration for PAS terms? I don't know the answer, and I have no axe to grind, but it may be worth thinking about.
Regards
Ginseng
I am sure there are many thinking the same way, understandably. However, do bear in mind that if you accept PAS, you are accepting an enagement which is still open to competition for promotion. Can you be sure that, if you have aleady refused a promotion, you won't be regarded as having excluded yourself from eligibility for consideration for PAS terms? I don't know the answer, and I have no axe to grind, but it may be worth thinking about.
Regards
Ginseng
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Ginseng,
That would be a hard choice wouldn't it! Just imagine, you're aged 41 and on the PA Spine as a flt lt - then you get promoted. If I remember correctly, that would mean that you move back into the Career Spine wouldn't it? It certainly would do if you were a PAS sqn ldr getting promoted to wg cdr!
If so, you would be taking a big hit to your pension prospects if you were signed up for AFPS05!
No - the whole system just seems broken to me. I do hope they fix it before we have to make the pension decision - then we'll all know where we stand!
And another thing Ginseng,
If they took that stance, who would they have left to make PAS at age 40? I would suggest that it would be only those people that didn\'t even try to get promoted - is that really what we want? Now that really would give the Army and RN some ammunition! 
Regards
That would be a hard choice wouldn't it! Just imagine, you're aged 41 and on the PA Spine as a flt lt - then you get promoted. If I remember correctly, that would mean that you move back into the Career Spine wouldn't it? It certainly would do if you were a PAS sqn ldr getting promoted to wg cdr!
If so, you would be taking a big hit to your pension prospects if you were signed up for AFPS05!
No - the whole system just seems broken to me. I do hope they fix it before we have to make the pension decision - then we'll all know where we stand!
And another thing Ginseng,
Can you be sure that, if you have aleady refused a promotion, you won\'t be regarded as having excluded yourself from eligibility for consideration for PAS terms?
Regards
Last edited by LFFC; 30th Jun 2005 at 21:46.
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I have asked this question before but never had a reply. Indeed when asked at one of the new pension briefings the briefers did not know the answer so here goes.
Under Gordon Brown's new pension rules no one will be able to take a pension before the age of 55 after april 2010. The new pension scheme obviously escapes this because of the change to EDPs etc. However, if you stay on the old scheme, will you be able to take a pension if you retire before 55 after April 2010. If anybody out there has a definitive answer please let me know.
Under Gordon Brown's new pension rules no one will be able to take a pension before the age of 55 after april 2010. The new pension scheme obviously escapes this because of the change to EDPs etc. However, if you stay on the old scheme, will you be able to take a pension if you retire before 55 after April 2010. If anybody out there has a definitive answer please let me know.
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What Nignog is asking is this.
He is thinking of staying on the old scheme ie not transferring to AFPS 05. Therefore under that schemes rules he would be entitled to an immediate pension assuming he had served enough time ie beyond IP. However he could still be younger than age 55 at this point.
Now, the Chancellor has stated that come 2010 no-one under 55 years old will be able to draw a pension.
So the question is:
If still on AFPS 75 and leaving the service in 2010+, having served past IP but before age 55 - will you get a pension?
i think!
Oggin
He is thinking of staying on the old scheme ie not transferring to AFPS 05. Therefore under that schemes rules he would be entitled to an immediate pension assuming he had served enough time ie beyond IP. However he could still be younger than age 55 at this point.
Now, the Chancellor has stated that come 2010 no-one under 55 years old will be able to draw a pension.
So the question is:
If still on AFPS 75 and leaving the service in 2010+, having served past IP but before age 55 - will you get a pension?
i think!
Oggin
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I've never seen any suggestion that the terms of AFPS 75 for existing scheme members will be changed beyond 2010. Maybe Ginseng knows more.
However, when Nignog gets his Offer to Transfer it will state quite clearly what he can expect when he retires if he stays on the old deal. It might be worth saving that document - just in case!
Regards
However, when Nignog gets his Offer to Transfer it will state quite clearly what he can expect when he retires if he stays on the old deal. It might be worth saving that document - just in case!
Regards
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Calculator
June Focus newspaper, letter from a member of the Service Personnel Pensions Team. Mentions OTT advice to be given in July with comparisons of both schemes but also mentions that there will be an online pension calculator to help with "what if" calculations.
Three months from date of despatch of OTT pack to decide whether to tale new option.
Three months from date of despatch of OTT pack to decide whether to tale new option.
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A lot of people are placing a great deal of reliance on the Offer to Transfer pack-up. I believe we will be dissapointed in the degree of personal information in it. Sure, it will mention your name and current engagement, etc, and explain what, in general terms, you will receive at the end of your current engagement under both schemes. Any reference to AFPS75 will refer you to the existing rules which, quite honestly, you all should know what to expect. How can they possibly know what rank you will be in when you leave the RAF before and beyond the IP point and at age 55? They don't. AFPS05 information will simply repeat what we know about EDPs and Age 55, etc. How do they know what you will be earning at age 55 or any time beforehand? They don't.
I would be very surprised if there was any reference to PVR/NGR and redundancy, as it would effect you on an individual level, except to refer to the redundancy terms as already published or call an IFA or AFPS hotline, etc.
There are hundreds of thousands of personnel due to receive these pack-ups. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't believe they will each be detailed enough to give actual pounds and pence comparisons, without reference to a generic calculator.
So, I'm using my own methods to find out all I can, and then I will make my mind up, perhaps using an IFA. The pack up should not tell me anything I don't already know.
I would be very surprised if there was any reference to PVR/NGR and redundancy, as it would effect you on an individual level, except to refer to the redundancy terms as already published or call an IFA or AFPS hotline, etc.
There are hundreds of thousands of personnel due to receive these pack-ups. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't believe they will each be detailed enough to give actual pounds and pence comparisons, without reference to a generic calculator.
So, I'm using my own methods to find out all I can, and then I will make my mind up, perhaps using an IFA. The pack up should not tell me anything I don't already know.
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DP Harvey
I agree with you - I think that the Offer To Transfer packup will be aimed at the average soldier and won't answer many of the difficult questions that aircrew might have.
You're also right that everyone must make up their own minds given their own circumstances. So my advice to everyone is to ask lots of questions if the paperwork doesn't give you the answers that you need. Don't make assumptions!
I agree with you - I think that the Offer To Transfer packup will be aimed at the average soldier and won't answer many of the difficult questions that aircrew might have.
You're also right that everyone must make up their own minds given their own circumstances. So my advice to everyone is to ask lots of questions if the paperwork doesn't give you the answers that you need. Don't make assumptions!
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JTO...
That was taken from the MOD website at:
http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/ea...e_payments.htm
I always thought that the last sentence was quite clear. But I can understand why you are suspicious.
EARLY DEPARTURE PAYMENTS (EDP) SCHEME
Introduction
Changes to tax law by the Inland Revenue do not allow pension benefits to be paid from a tax-approved pension scheme before the age of 55 (apart from those for ill health). The new Early Departure Payment (EDP) Scheme is not a pension, but it pays a tax-free lump sum of three times pension and a taxable income, so it is a compensation payment, similarly structured to the Immediate Pension (IP) in AFPS 75 but of a lower value. It is payable to personnel who leave Service from age 40 AND with at least 18 years of service, but before the normal retirement age of 55.
Who is will be affected by this change?
Those who choose to transfer to the new AFPS 05 and, new entrants or re-entrants to the Armed Forces from 6 Apr 05 will be eligible to receive an EDP (apart from certain specialist staff who are on bonus terms). Those already in receipt of an IP or who are currently serving and decide to remain in AFPS 75 will NOT be affected by these changes.
Introduction
Changes to tax law by the Inland Revenue do not allow pension benefits to be paid from a tax-approved pension scheme before the age of 55 (apart from those for ill health). The new Early Departure Payment (EDP) Scheme is not a pension, but it pays a tax-free lump sum of three times pension and a taxable income, so it is a compensation payment, similarly structured to the Immediate Pension (IP) in AFPS 75 but of a lower value. It is payable to personnel who leave Service from age 40 AND with at least 18 years of service, but before the normal retirement age of 55.
Who is will be affected by this change?
Those who choose to transfer to the new AFPS 05 and, new entrants or re-entrants to the Armed Forces from 6 Apr 05 will be eligible to receive an EDP (apart from certain specialist staff who are on bonus terms). Those already in receipt of an IP or who are currently serving and decide to remain in AFPS 75 will NOT be affected by these changes.
http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/ea...e_payments.htm
I always thought that the last sentence was quite clear. But I can understand why you are suspicious.