New Pension Scheme
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Unmissable
The situation you describe would be treated as a"Death in Deferment", because your EDP is not a pension. Your real pension has been preserved at your date of retirement, and payment defered to age 65. Hence my understanding (although you must get this confirmed) is that your widow would be paid your age 65 pension lump sum and her widow's pension (based on your preserved pension) from your date of death. She would obviously need to know how to go about claiming the pension and what proof of your date of death and previous service would be required, so make sure you find out and leave clear instructions where she or your executor can find them.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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JTO
No, you can't! If you think that is frustrating try this one for size:
In Feb/Mar 2003 a Spec Aircew Sqn Ldr could have been offered entry to the PAS on inception at 1 Apr 03. If he decided to turn it down on the basis of the information provided at the time (say because the increase of pension for PAS in AFPS75, though attractive, was insufficient to offset the other changes in terms of service and employment profile), he will now find that he cannot benefit from the even greater pension increase on offer to PAS by transfering to AFPS05, even though that second increase was not part of the offer on the table at the time. Moreover, the second ARR briefing pack stated specifically, in writing, that any new pension scheme in the future would only impact on those joining after the new scheme came into force. This was not contradicted by any material published prior to 1 Apr 03, at which stage the details of AFPS05 were unknown and the legislation had not even been introduced to parliament. Moreover, he is now not only in a far worse position than other Spec Aircew Sqn Ldrs who transfered to PAS, but also the Flt Lts who did the same. And, in future, he will see any Sqn Ldr who has transfered to AFPS05 and is then offered the cross-over to PAS being able to accept the offer knowing that it will mean the full AFPS05 PAS deal!
Food for thought!
Muff C
I have checked today, and there is no minimum requirement for remaining service to transfer to AFPS05. You need to transfer in a minimum of 2 years previously served in AFPS75 (or another employer's scheme) to qualify immediately for all applicable AFPS05 benefits from the transfer date. The bottom line is that all those in service on 6 Apr 06 are eligible to transfer, whatever the remaining period of their current engagement. You were either misled or misinformed.
Regards
Ginseng
In Feb/Mar 2003 a Spec Aircew Sqn Ldr could have been offered entry to the PAS on inception at 1 Apr 03. If he decided to turn it down on the basis of the information provided at the time (say because the increase of pension for PAS in AFPS75, though attractive, was insufficient to offset the other changes in terms of service and employment profile), he will now find that he cannot benefit from the even greater pension increase on offer to PAS by transfering to AFPS05, even though that second increase was not part of the offer on the table at the time. Moreover, the second ARR briefing pack stated specifically, in writing, that any new pension scheme in the future would only impact on those joining after the new scheme came into force. This was not contradicted by any material published prior to 1 Apr 03, at which stage the details of AFPS05 were unknown and the legislation had not even been introduced to parliament. Moreover, he is now not only in a far worse position than other Spec Aircew Sqn Ldrs who transfered to PAS, but also the Flt Lts who did the same. And, in future, he will see any Sqn Ldr who has transfered to AFPS05 and is then offered the cross-over to PAS being able to accept the offer knowing that it will mean the full AFPS05 PAS deal!
Food for thought!
Muff C
I have checked today, and there is no minimum requirement for remaining service to transfer to AFPS05. You need to transfer in a minimum of 2 years previously served in AFPS75 (or another employer's scheme) to qualify immediately for all applicable AFPS05 benefits from the transfer date. The bottom line is that all those in service on 6 Apr 06 are eligible to transfer, whatever the remaining period of their current engagement. You were either misled or misinformed.
Regards
Ginseng
Last edited by Ginseng; 19th Jul 2005 at 19:45.
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JTO
Yes, I take your point. And then there is the odd guy who may have had an offer of Spec Aircrew promotion in the pipeline when the PAS offer came along. The transfer terms required him to forego the promotion and go back in the pot with everyone else in order to go PAS. His alternative was to keep his promotion but stay as Spec Aircrew. Three years down the line he finds that he has been given an even bigger shafting. I know at least one person that this happened to. I don't think anyone intended these things to happen, but the combination of these two offers has produced some bizarre results. No doubt we are expected to accept that they should be seen to work in complete isolation from each other, but the reality for some people is VERY different.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Yet more in the PAS vein. Does anyone know where you stand with regards to the OTT and the resultant move of the EDP to 18/40? I accepted PAS terms, due to start next year at my 16/38 point, but if I accept the AFPS05, does that mean that starting PAS is deferred until the 18/40 point? Am I in the same boat for the FRI2 as well. I asked the pensions hotline where a very nice lady told me it was complicated and she didn't know...
Any help out there?
Any help out there?
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Compressorstalll
I don't know, but I can't see logically why your entry into PAS should be delayed. If you are committed to the minimum return of service, that would take you past the 18/40 point. I think it is possible that any offers made in future will be based on transfer at the 18/40 point, but that is a matter for the service personnel staffs. I think the same arguments should apply to the FRI, which also carries a minimum R-o-S condition. Good Luck.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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I have just gone through the pensions calculator process and plotted a graph of the results from age 45 to 55.
Being PAS I am better off under AFPS 05 except for about 2 years between 45 and 47 years old. What is really interesting is a little spike on the graph at age 54. It appears that, assuming I live to 75 years old, my total pension income under AFPS 05 is some 16000 more if I PVR at 54 than if I retire normally at 55.
Anyway, interesting stats aside, it appears that I can't afford not to switch to AFPS 05.
Flo
Being PAS I am better off under AFPS 05 except for about 2 years between 45 and 47 years old. What is really interesting is a little spike on the graph at age 54. It appears that, assuming I live to 75 years old, my total pension income under AFPS 05 is some 16000 more if I PVR at 54 than if I retire normally at 55.
Anyway, interesting stats aside, it appears that I can't afford not to switch to AFPS 05.
Flo
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Ginseng & Just This Once ......
Full realisation of just what has happened to sqn ldr aicrew in the Career Stream is just beginning to bite.
I met an old friend at Fairford over the weekend who candidly told me that accepting promotion to sqn ldr was the worst move he'd ever made. Whilst he accepted that he'd enjoyed his command tour and has earned more over the last 4 or 5 years, had he known what was planned for PAS pensions he would have rejected promotion, continued flying and happily served until age 55.
Unfortunately, because the PAS is so lucrative, PMA have more than enough "older aircrew" and even though he's an A2 QFI, PMA won't transfer him back into the PA spine. As his promotion prospects look bleak, he's decided to leave the RAF and join the airlines.
He told me that he's far from being on his own...........
He laughed uncontrollably when I told him about some of the old oxygen thieves that are being posted back to the sqns because PMA can't find anything else for them to do!
Full realisation of just what has happened to sqn ldr aicrew in the Career Stream is just beginning to bite.
I met an old friend at Fairford over the weekend who candidly told me that accepting promotion to sqn ldr was the worst move he'd ever made. Whilst he accepted that he'd enjoyed his command tour and has earned more over the last 4 or 5 years, had he known what was planned for PAS pensions he would have rejected promotion, continued flying and happily served until age 55.
Unfortunately, because the PAS is so lucrative, PMA have more than enough "older aircrew" and even though he's an A2 QFI, PMA won't transfer him back into the PA spine. As his promotion prospects look bleak, he's decided to leave the RAF and join the airlines.
He told me that he's far from being on his own...........
He laughed uncontrollably when I told him about some of the old oxygen thieves that are being posted back to the sqns because PMA can't find anything else for them to do!
Ginseng,
I am one of those who had the choice of staying as Flt Lt and being allowed to transfer to PAS OR accepting promotion to Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr (and no PAS). Trusting the system and proud to having finally being picked up for promotion, I chose the promotion.
What a mistake to a make! Not only have I dipped out on my pension but I now have to chose whether to stay on AFPS75 or transfer to 05. Now here is another problem-I have a reduced flying med cat and Glasgow have sent me a prediction of my Life Commutation HOWEVER I cannot find out by how much, if any, of this Life Commutation may be reduced by until I have my release medical in 3 years time-I could lose the lot potentially.
So in short, I have 3 months to make a decision but I don't have a vital piece of the information ie how much my life commutation would actually be-how can I be expected to make this decision without the full picture? And, no-one is prepared to help and worse still does anyone care.
I am one of those who had the choice of staying as Flt Lt and being allowed to transfer to PAS OR accepting promotion to Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr (and no PAS). Trusting the system and proud to having finally being picked up for promotion, I chose the promotion.
What a mistake to a make! Not only have I dipped out on my pension but I now have to chose whether to stay on AFPS75 or transfer to 05. Now here is another problem-I have a reduced flying med cat and Glasgow have sent me a prediction of my Life Commutation HOWEVER I cannot find out by how much, if any, of this Life Commutation may be reduced by until I have my release medical in 3 years time-I could lose the lot potentially.
So in short, I have 3 months to make a decision but I don't have a vital piece of the information ie how much my life commutation would actually be-how can I be expected to make this decision without the full picture? And, no-one is prepared to help and worse still does anyone care.
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OKOC
What a bum*er. You genuinely have my sympathy. All I can think to say is that AFPS05 offers no commutation except the opportunity to reverse-commute, i.e to trade some of your lump sum back for an increase in your annual pension. Not sure it's much help, but it might allow you to see the two schemes in perspective for your circumstances.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
OKOC/GINSENG
What can they do to you if you decline to make a decision until you have the full facts, can they "make" you chose ? Surely you can only decide when you have all the facts.
What can they do to you if you decline to make a decision until you have the full facts, can they "make" you chose ? Surely you can only decide when you have all the facts.
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timex
Well, you have to take it on trust, of course, that you have the correct facts. Hence my earlier comment about the second ARR briefing pack. For those who don't have the reference handy, I quote from Page 3, "PA Spine Pension".
"The PA Spine pension arrangements are still being developed. However, current pension arrangements are being reviewed as part of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme Review (AFPSR). Currently, the AFPSR team is recommending that we move from our current scheme, which is based on representative rates of pay, to a final salary scheme. Should this recommendation be implemented then it is important to remember that this will only impact on future Service personnel who join the AFPS after the new scheme is in place."
Regards
Ginseng
The answer to your speciifc question is that if you do not return an election form, you will, by default, remain on AFPS75.
"The PA Spine pension arrangements are still being developed. However, current pension arrangements are being reviewed as part of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme Review (AFPSR). Currently, the AFPSR team is recommending that we move from our current scheme, which is based on representative rates of pay, to a final salary scheme. Should this recommendation be implemented then it is important to remember that this will only impact on future Service personnel who join the AFPS after the new scheme is in place."
Regards
Ginseng
The answer to your speciifc question is that if you do not return an election form, you will, by default, remain on AFPS75.
Last edited by Ginseng; 21st Jul 2005 at 18:49.
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I've just had a go on the Pension Calculator and I must admit it seems a decent bit of kit for once. The figures it churned out for AFPS05 were very similiar to those I had worked out using a spreadsheet/back of a fag packet.
However, there seems to be one small glitch - I haven't yet moved onto the PAS, but if I enter my 38/16 point at the entry to PAS date (i.e. in the future) and run the calculation it appears to use the Spec Aircrew daily supplement (currently 52.3p per day for navs) instead of the full Flt Lt PAS rate (currently 86.0p per day for navs). As a result, by my figures, it underestimates my pension on AFPS75 at 55 by some £2100.
D4R
However, there seems to be one small glitch - I haven't yet moved onto the PAS, but if I enter my 38/16 point at the entry to PAS date (i.e. in the future) and run the calculation it appears to use the Spec Aircrew daily supplement (currently 52.3p per day for navs) instead of the full Flt Lt PAS rate (currently 86.0p per day for navs). As a result, by my figures, it underestimates my pension on AFPS75 at 55 by some £2100.
D4R
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Just received the offer to transfer pack with the personal benefit statement. The statement appears to be completely misleading and does not agree with the online pensions calculator.
I am PAS and the pension at 55 appears to be calculated as though I retire on the same PAS level as the one I am currently on.
Consequently it appears that AFPS 75 is a better deal if I serve to 55 (by 1000 pa and 3000 lump sum).
If I run the calculator for PAS level 35 and retire at 55 then AFPS 05 is a much better deal (by 4000 pa and 12000 lump sum).
Am I missing something, is the statement in error, or has it just been produced in an incredibly confusing manner?
Any thoughts Ginseng?
Flo
I am PAS and the pension at 55 appears to be calculated as though I retire on the same PAS level as the one I am currently on.
Consequently it appears that AFPS 75 is a better deal if I serve to 55 (by 1000 pa and 3000 lump sum).
If I run the calculator for PAS level 35 and retire at 55 then AFPS 05 is a much better deal (by 4000 pa and 12000 lump sum).
Am I missing something, is the statement in error, or has it just been produced in an incredibly confusing manner?
Any thoughts Ginseng?
Flo
Last edited by Axial Flo; 21st Jul 2005 at 20:12.
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Axial Flo
I haven't received my pack yet, but my guess is that the Personal Benefit Statement is calculated for your situation today (or at 6 Apr 06), with the calculator then being available for you to explore various future profiles. After all, the "system" cannot know for sure when you will finally retire. The calculation may not even have been done at this year's pay rates, and will have been produced a little while ago.
At least, that's the only way I can make sense of what you describe.
D4RP
The "Specialist Aircrew" daily supplement in the PAS Pay tables is only for the Army, who have certain types of people they refer to as Spec Aircrew. It is not Spec Aircrew as the RAF knows it, since it is nonsensical to have RAF Spec Aircrew on PAS terms. This might be the source of the confusion (its not something I have come across). Double check that you are making all the correct Service, Rank and Unique Pay Table selections. Come back if you can't sort it out and I'll take a look.
Regards
Ginseng
At least, that's the only way I can make sense of what you describe.
D4RP
The "Specialist Aircrew" daily supplement in the PAS Pay tables is only for the Army, who have certain types of people they refer to as Spec Aircrew. It is not Spec Aircrew as the RAF knows it, since it is nonsensical to have RAF Spec Aircrew on PAS terms. This might be the source of the confusion (its not something I have come across). Double check that you are making all the correct Service, Rank and Unique Pay Table selections. Come back if you can't sort it out and I'll take a look.
Regards
Ginseng
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timex
Because the effect of any index linking would be merely to preserve the value of the payment in 2005 pounds (or whatever year the calculation has been done for), which is what you are being shown. Of course it does mean that payments which are not index linked (EDP prior to 55 and AFPS75 pension prior to 55) will reduce in value for each passing year after retirement. It is left to you to judge the affect that inlfation may have on your payments throughout early retirement.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Ginseng
Thanks for the quick reply. I spoke to the Pensions People and they agree someone on the RAF PAS should never get the Spec Aircrew supplement.
I have double checked my entries in the calculator and the results are the same. In order not to completely compromise myself I have PM'd you with my figures and will be interested to see your thoughts.
D4R
Thanks for the quick reply. I spoke to the Pensions People and they agree someone on the RAF PAS should never get the Spec Aircrew supplement.
I have double checked my entries in the calculator and the results are the same. In order not to completely compromise myself I have PM'd you with my figures and will be interested to see your thoughts.
D4R