New Pension Scheme
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Ginseng,
Ok - I see my mistake now thanks. It's 65% rather than 50% because the EDP payment rises every year from 50% at age 40 to 75% at age 55.
But I think my basic concern remains that if I join the AFPS05 and get redundancy in the future, I'd take a hit on both the capital payment and on the pension. It's something that I must consider when making the decision on the move to AFPS05 - even if it does look like a good deal for me at first glance.
Regards,
LFFC
Ok - I see my mistake now thanks. It's 65% rather than 50% because the EDP payment rises every year from 50% at age 40 to 75% at age 55.
But I think my basic concern remains that if I join the AFPS05 and get redundancy in the future, I'd take a hit on both the capital payment and on the pension. It's something that I must consider when making the decision on the move to AFPS05 - even if it does look like a good deal for me at first glance.
Regards,
LFFC
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LFFP
Depends on your circumstances and the timing. If you are PAS, the increase in pension, even when scaled-down to the EDP, may still be attractive in comparison to the current terms, if you are close enough to normal retirement age and can afford the risk of defering some of the income on the assumption of collecting the second lump-sum at 65. You may take a hit on the SCP, compared to current terms, but not necessarily compared with the terms as they will be from 2008 or 2013. I am afraid you will have to make that judgement for yourself. If you are not PAS, then there is little to smile at all round.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Yeah - I'd agree. If you're a Career Spine Sqn Ldr aircrew, then you really have missed the boat (unless you get promoted to Gp Capt)! Guess that serves you right for working too hard!
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J T O
Which begs the question as to why it has been decided that PAS will have all their salary, including that element that was previously given as additional pay, fully pensioned under AFPS05, rather than continuing the half-way house arrangement that was deemed suitable to attract enough people into PAS within AFPS75? The arguments against and for the pensioning of continuous "additional pay", and the semantic difference for most of us between that and our "military salary" are well-rehearsed. If I were a betting man, I would lay odds that MoD were running scared that someone would eventually take them to the European Courts on the justification for charging tax and national insurance on continuous additional pay, whilst ignoring it for pension purposes. If you could attract enough people to a different set of terms of service which did not call the same money "additional pay", and at the same time pension some (or now all) of it, the risk would be much reduced. Pity that this plan still shafts the other poor sods, but who cares about them anyway?
But they wouln't do that, would they?
Ginseng
But they wouln't do that, would they?
Ginseng
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Ginseng
I really don't think it was done by design. Besides, a lot of people got together and tried the legal thing years ago.
As I said before, I think Mr C*ck-up came calling! My bet is that the Aircrew Retention team didn't talk to the Pension Review team and by the time it was all decided, it was too late to answer difficult questions.
Now where have I heard stories like that before?
But as I also said before, the solution is staring them in the face. If they really cared, they would just transfer all aircrew sqn ldrs to the PAS at age 44. After all, they did just give away PAS to all spec aircrew - even to a stumble-bum like me!!
...and if they really really cared (and wanted to invest in their people) then they might even pull their fingers out and redress the balance in time for their men/women to join AFPS05!
I really don't think it was done by design. Besides, a lot of people got together and tried the legal thing years ago.
As I said before, I think Mr C*ck-up came calling! My bet is that the Aircrew Retention team didn't talk to the Pension Review team and by the time it was all decided, it was too late to answer difficult questions.
Now where have I heard stories like that before?
But as I also said before, the solution is staring them in the face. If they really cared, they would just transfer all aircrew sqn ldrs to the PAS at age 44. After all, they did just give away PAS to all spec aircrew - even to a stumble-bum like me!!
...and if they really really cared (and wanted to invest in their people) then they might even pull their fingers out and redress the balance in time for their men/women to join AFPS05!
Last edited by LFFC; 25th Jun 2005 at 20:48.
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LFFC & JTO
Perhaps. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that invitation letter if I were you, not when there are all those gapped staff jobs to fill at SO2 level. Of course, PAS Officers are eligible for "flying duties" staff posts aren't they? And I'm sure that having had such a generous offer, and still being in the frame for further promotion, they would be more than happy to oblige.......
Ginseng was then killed in the stampede for the door ....... RIP
Regards
Ginseng was then killed in the stampede for the door ....... RIP
Regards
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Ginseng
Yeah - I remember that I was quite worried about the prospect of a ground tour when PAS was offered. I recall that they made a big thing about PAS officers being given flying-related ground appointments. But I haven't seen many of us get caught for a ground-tour yet - perhaps the wheels are worried about how we'd cope!
Just This Once...
What incentive does the RAF have? Well, I guess it depends on how much they want to keep Career Spine sqn ldrs. I've spoken to quite a few who feel quite insulted by what's happening and I hear whispers that several have already pulled up stumps. I don't think that any rational organisation would have let this happen.
Yeah - I remember that I was quite worried about the prospect of a ground tour when PAS was offered. I recall that they made a big thing about PAS officers being given flying-related ground appointments. But I haven't seen many of us get caught for a ground-tour yet - perhaps the wheels are worried about how we'd cope!
Just This Once...
What incentive does the RAF have? Well, I guess it depends on how much they want to keep Career Spine sqn ldrs. I've spoken to quite a few who feel quite insulted by what's happening and I hear whispers that several have already pulled up stumps. I don't think that any rational organisation would have let this happen.
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Hueymeister
Thanks for the plaudit, but I can't legally advise you on your own specific case. Not a qualified IFA, just a difficult, tenacious old B****r in the Brian Dixon mode.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
Two points:
Firstly, regarding Career Spine Sqn Ldrs. I thought I had heard (from a qualified source) that the rules for them had now changed, with effect from about 12 months ago, in that having made Sqn Ldr you were no longer assured of employment until 55, but now only until 44. Presumably there would be some mechanism whereby, having reached 44, a decision would be made on whether or not furthe service was offered? An assimilation board for Sqn Ldrs? If I am right this makes Career Spine Sqn Ldr potentially even less attractive. Can anyone out there confirm/deny what I have been led to believe.
Secondly, reference PAS and ground tours. I know quite a few PAS people in my world on ground tours, and there is a strong possiblility I will be one of them in a couple of years.
Firstly, regarding Career Spine Sqn Ldrs. I thought I had heard (from a qualified source) that the rules for them had now changed, with effect from about 12 months ago, in that having made Sqn Ldr you were no longer assured of employment until 55, but now only until 44. Presumably there would be some mechanism whereby, having reached 44, a decision would be made on whether or not furthe service was offered? An assimilation board for Sqn Ldrs? If I am right this makes Career Spine Sqn Ldr potentially even less attractive. Can anyone out there confirm/deny what I have been led to believe.
Secondly, reference PAS and ground tours. I know quite a few PAS people in my world on ground tours, and there is a strong possiblility I will be one of them in a couple of years.
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Biggus,
I hadn't heard about limiting service for Career Spine sqn ldrs to age 44 - that would certainly be news to me, but then again, why should they tell me?
I do know that some in the RN are only guaranteed service to age 50 with a one year rolling extension after that, but 44 seems a bit too unkind!
Regarding groundtours for PAS officers. I'd heard of a few, but maybe it's more widespread than I'd thought - better keep my head down! But I suppose it should work the other way too and get rid of the argument that prevents CS officers transferring to the PAS because there aren't enough flying tours for them and they would have to stay in a desk job!
I hadn't heard about limiting service for Career Spine sqn ldrs to age 44 - that would certainly be news to me, but then again, why should they tell me?
I do know that some in the RN are only guaranteed service to age 50 with a one year rolling extension after that, but 44 seems a bit too unkind!
Regarding groundtours for PAS officers. I'd heard of a few, but maybe it's more widespread than I'd thought - better keep my head down!
But I suppose it should work the other way too and get rid of the argument that prevents CS officers transferring to the PAS because there aren't enough flying tours for them and they would have to stay in a desk job!
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Biggus
That's a completely new one on me. I don't think its true, but this life is full of surprises! The 44 point is a special option to leave. You cannot ask to defer it, you either take it on time, or waive it in its entirety and continue on the assumption of serving to 55.
Regards
Ginseng
Added later.........
I might just have remembered what you were talking about. I am sure a while ago I saw some discussion on whether Sqn Ldrs should still be offered the 44/22 option at all, or whether it should be done away with. Could this be what you remember?
Don't know the current state of play.
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
Added later.........
I might just have remembered what you were talking about. I am sure a while ago I saw some discussion on whether Sqn Ldrs should still be offered the 44/22 option at all, or whether it should be done away with. Could this be what you remember?
Don't know the current state of play.
Ginseng
Last edited by Ginseng; 27th Jun 2005 at 18:58.
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Is it possible that the actual policy regarding the 44 yr point is that a Sqn Ldr on the CS is not guarranteed service on the CS until age 55 and that he opt for, or be given an offer he can't refuse, to transfer to the PAS at age 44. I'm sure I saw something along those lines on a powerpoint presentation when PMA rolled out the schemes a couple of years ago.
I might be wrong, though......
I might be wrong, though......
I am not certain I am correct, but I am not in the habit of making things like this up to get a rise!!
It came up as part of a conversation I had about 18 months ago, but as somebody not likely to get promoted I wasn't paying a lot of attention. This was well after the introduction of PAS, so any bumphf relating to that would be outdated if my source was correct!
It came up as part of a conversation I had about 18 months ago, but as somebody not likely to get promoted I wasn't paying a lot of attention. This was well after the introduction of PAS, so any bumphf relating to that would be outdated if my source was correct!
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"Why pay them on PA terms when you can have them for less..."
Well, more pay was the theoretical reason for the PAS at that time; give them more to keep them in. Sqn Ldr pilots on the CS, who were not good potential for either command or SO1 staff work were not getting the advancement, but stuck forever on an SO2 desk to age 55, were leaving the RAF, quite understandably. By giving flying related status to a staff appointment means that the Sqn Ldr would move to the PAS, fly a (peripheral) desk, and get a better than average Sqn Ldr pension. Some would even go back to the FL to gap any areas. I believe that was the theory, but I don't know if the offer or application to transfer to PAS still exists at age 44.
If its possible to feel sorry for a 55 yr old Wg Cdr on the CS, without Fly Pay in his last 3 years, his pension will not reflect the extra work he has put in, compared with the relaxed Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr on PAS Level 35. I don't know the figures, but there is some inequity there. I foresee a lot of senior officer pilots, in their mid 40s, who can neither get promoted to Gp Capt nor get on the PAS, pack up and leave the RAF.
Well, more pay was the theoretical reason for the PAS at that time; give them more to keep them in. Sqn Ldr pilots on the CS, who were not good potential for either command or SO1 staff work were not getting the advancement, but stuck forever on an SO2 desk to age 55, were leaving the RAF, quite understandably. By giving flying related status to a staff appointment means that the Sqn Ldr would move to the PAS, fly a (peripheral) desk, and get a better than average Sqn Ldr pension. Some would even go back to the FL to gap any areas. I believe that was the theory, but I don't know if the offer or application to transfer to PAS still exists at age 44.
If its possible to feel sorry for a 55 yr old Wg Cdr on the CS, without Fly Pay in his last 3 years, his pension will not reflect the extra work he has put in, compared with the relaxed Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr on PAS Level 35. I don't know the figures, but there is some inequity there. I foresee a lot of senior officer pilots, in their mid 40s, who can neither get promoted to Gp Capt nor get on the PAS, pack up and leave the RAF.
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I've just been thru this forum and gained lots of valuable info. Had missed the bit about getting 75% of pension at 55 so will have to do a few more calculations! Anyone know when we can transfer and how long you have to be on the scheme to gain the benefits?? In some parts of JSP 794 it talks about a 2 year qualifying period but not sure if they "backdate" the scheme to April 05? Also as PA I believe we have to do our 5 years on the scheme-Apr08 for those who transferred at the start-so does that mean we could not leave on AFPS 05 until April 08.
As you can see after reading the JSP and lots of this forum I'm still a bit hazy as to whether it would be better to change or if even I can change. Big thank-you to all those who are gradually adding to our corporate knowledge!
Biggus-why do you pay yourself the lump sum (3Xpension) twice in your earlier post?? I thought we only got this once at 65 but then theres a lot of things I don't understand!!
As you can see after reading the JSP and lots of this forum I'm still a bit hazy as to whether it would be better to change or if even I can change. Big thank-you to all those who are gradually adding to our corporate knowledge!
Biggus-why do you pay yourself the lump sum (3Xpension) twice in your earlier post?? I thought we only got this once at 65 but then theres a lot of things I don't understand!!
Last edited by Topofclimb; 28th Jun 2005 at 13:15.
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Topofclimb
The transfer date will be 6 Apr 06.
You need only be in the scheme 1 day, if you have trnsfered in with at least 2 years qualifying service.
Your question about the original 5 year PAS Return of Service is a moot point. I don't know the answer.
When leaving after the EDP point, but before age 55, you do indeed get 2 lump sums, one on leaving and one at 65. If you serve to 55, you get the whole pension immediately but only one lump sum (on retirement).
Regards
Ginseng
You need only be in the scheme 1 day, if you have trnsfered in with at least 2 years qualifying service.
Your question about the original 5 year PAS Return of Service is a moot point. I don't know the answer.
When leaving after the EDP point, but before age 55, you do indeed get 2 lump sums, one on leaving and one at 65. If you serve to 55, you get the whole pension immediately but only one lump sum (on retirement).
Regards
Ginseng
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TOC
No. Both are 3 x pension accrued at point of retirement. The first is paid on leaving, the second at age 65 (index-linked back to date of retirement). See my reply to Biggus on the "More Cuts Coming" thread acknowledging an error I made earlier.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Ginseng
Hi
Just wondered if you knew where to find a table detailing Accrued Benefits % (for years served) under AFPS 75 (or how to calculate it).
cheers
Oggin
Just wondered if you knew where to find a table detailing Accrued Benefits % (for years served) under AFPS 75 (or how to calculate it).
cheers
Oggin
Last edited by Oggin Aviator; 29th Jun 2005 at 07:38.