New Pension Scheme
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I hope you're not implying that the RAF is ageist LFFC? Well we all know the reality don't we!!
As you say, assimilation is becoming very hard at present. I know of someone who even went off and did the Aerosystems Course, but even with that under his belt, it's looking like the RAF won't be keeping him in.
It's all very short-sighted though in my opinion. I've never heard so many people talking about getting out as I have at the moment; most wouldn't want aaimilation even if they were offered it. I can see the wheels well and truly coming off the bus sometime in the next 5 years. TELIC dragging on and on seems to be proving the final straw for a lot of people. I wonder how many of them have been getting the "It's the RAF or me" ultimatum.
As you say, assimilation is becoming very hard at present. I know of someone who even went off and did the Aerosystems Course, but even with that under his belt, it's looking like the RAF won't be keeping him in.
It's all very short-sighted though in my opinion. I've never heard so many people talking about getting out as I have at the moment; most wouldn't want aaimilation even if they were offered it. I can see the wheels well and truly coming off the bus sometime in the next 5 years. TELIC dragging on and on seems to be proving the final straw for a lot of people. I wonder how many of them have been getting the "It's the RAF or me" ultimatum.
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Biggus
I have been examining your calculations earlier (8 Jun post at 21:33). I think you have an error. Your EDP calculation assumes that, after retiring at 50, your EDP would increase to 75% of preserved pension at age 55. It will not. All that will happen is that the RPI uplift will be applied (and backdated) to your 67% from that date. You still come out on top, but not by as much as you think. And, of course, if you don't live to collect the second lump sum at age 65, the balance of the sums reverses. Beware of false assumptions - this is more complex than you think!
Regards
Ginseng
Oggin,
As regards the Naval Officer (or anyone else) retiring before 55 - its an EDP for you until age 65, then preserved pension. There is no other compensation for your terms of service forcing you out.
The same applies to those retiring before 40, or with less than 18 years Reckonable Service. In your case it is - No EDP, preserved pension at 65.
Muff C
There you go with that "Group Captain Equivalent Pension" nonsense again! It is good, but not that good! No Group Captain I know retired on a pension calculated on his "on appointment" rate of pay. This is because, in AFPS 75, you only need serve 2 years in the rank to achieve the pension based on full Representative Pay for that rank (and it increases on a sliding scale between 0 and 2 years). Do you know anyone who was promoted and retired the next day? Spin and headlines can be very misleading, and are sometimes intended to be, to create a bigger impression than they deserve.
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
Oggin,
As regards the Naval Officer (or anyone else) retiring before 55 - its an EDP for you until age 65, then preserved pension. There is no other compensation for your terms of service forcing you out.
The same applies to those retiring before 40, or with less than 18 years Reckonable Service. In your case it is - No EDP, preserved pension at 65.
Muff C
There you go with that "Group Captain Equivalent Pension" nonsense again! It is good, but not that good! No Group Captain I know retired on a pension calculated on his "on appointment" rate of pay. This is because, in AFPS 75, you only need serve 2 years in the rank to achieve the pension based on full Representative Pay for that rank (and it increases on a sliding scale between 0 and 2 years). Do you know anyone who was promoted and retired the next day? Spin and headlines can be very misleading, and are sometimes intended to be, to create a bigger impression than they deserve.
Ginseng
Last edited by Ginseng; 10th Jun 2005 at 15:31.
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Zedder,
It wouldn't matter if I did imply that the RAF is ageist - ageism is allowed in the armed forces - at the moment. Think about all the military Equal Opportunities questionnaires that you've filled in, and anything else on discrimination in the forces. There was never a section on age discrimination was there? That's because it doesn't apply to the military - yet!
We all know about the policy that a sqn ldr won't get selected to attend the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) once he/she is aged over 43 and you also have to have had a couple of good tours as a sqn ldr before you'll be selected. As promotion to wg cdr is pretty much dependant on being selected for the ASC, it's therefore very unlikely that you'll make it beyond sqn ldr if you haven't made that rank by the age of 36. So any offer of promotion to sqn ldr in your late 30s is condemning you to life in the Career Spine but not actually offering you a career in which you can advance. Take away the possibility of transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine and life will become pretty dull!
Just This Once...,
I think you're being a little negative, but I wouldn't disagree with you too much. I'd have said, "Promotion to sqn ldr much after age 32 is now regarded as retention negative - so beware".
Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive.
It wouldn't matter if I did imply that the RAF is ageist - ageism is allowed in the armed forces - at the moment. Think about all the military Equal Opportunities questionnaires that you've filled in, and anything else on discrimination in the forces. There was never a section on age discrimination was there? That's because it doesn't apply to the military - yet!
We all know about the policy that a sqn ldr won't get selected to attend the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) once he/she is aged over 43 and you also have to have had a couple of good tours as a sqn ldr before you'll be selected. As promotion to wg cdr is pretty much dependant on being selected for the ASC, it's therefore very unlikely that you'll make it beyond sqn ldr if you haven't made that rank by the age of 36. So any offer of promotion to sqn ldr in your late 30s is condemning you to life in the Career Spine but not actually offering you a career in which you can advance. Take away the possibility of transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine and life will become pretty dull!
Just This Once...,
I think you're being a little negative, but I wouldn't disagree with you too much. I'd have said, "Promotion to sqn ldr much after age 32 is now regarded as retention negative - so beware".
Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive.
Last edited by LFFC; 11th Jun 2005 at 09:14.
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LFFC Said
"Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive."
The only trouble is that "Career" and "Professional Aircrew" are, from my observation of life in the RAF over the last thirty years, totally incompatable. PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.
"Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive."
The only trouble is that "Career" and "Professional Aircrew" are, from my observation of life in the RAF over the last thirty years, totally incompatable. PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.
Ginseng
http:/www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/new_afps/edps.htm describes the Early Departure Scheme on a question and answer basis. The answer to the question "What happens to the EDP at age 55?" is given as:
"The income stream will increase to 75% of the value of the individuals accrued pension entitlement and will then be adjusted to take account of the changes in the RPI since the point at which the EDP was originally taken and thereafter on an annual basis until age 65."
There are even specific examples in a table later in the same document, showing the figures for a Sgt, WO1, Major and Lt Col all retiring at their 40/18 point which all show the rise to 75% at 55.
I therefore believe my calculations to be correct. Reference your point about not living till 65, I made that very same point myself if you reread my 8 Jun 21:33 post. As you say, and I am fully aware of, it is a complex issueand everyone has to make their own assumptions and decisions based on their future plans and expectations!
LFFC
Reference the point you made about somebody on the PA Spine who PVRs. I don't know, I will go through my PA Spine file later, what happens when you PVR, but one point to note is that AFPS 05 is "....based on an individuals best 365 days pay during their last 3 years of service."
I don't see how they could change your pension scheme if you PVR as PA Spine, those rules were written long before AFPS 05 came along. They might make you revert to Spec Aircrew, as I said I have yet to check on that, but presumably if you were out within 2 years under AFPS 05 rules you would still get a pension based on a previous year on the PA Spine salary, i.e all your pay in that year as PA Spine counting as pensionable?? Any thoughts??
http:/www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/new_afps/edps.htm describes the Early Departure Scheme on a question and answer basis. The answer to the question "What happens to the EDP at age 55?" is given as:
"The income stream will increase to 75% of the value of the individuals accrued pension entitlement and will then be adjusted to take account of the changes in the RPI since the point at which the EDP was originally taken and thereafter on an annual basis until age 65."
There are even specific examples in a table later in the same document, showing the figures for a Sgt, WO1, Major and Lt Col all retiring at their 40/18 point which all show the rise to 75% at 55.
I therefore believe my calculations to be correct. Reference your point about not living till 65, I made that very same point myself if you reread my 8 Jun 21:33 post. As you say, and I am fully aware of, it is a complex issueand everyone has to make their own assumptions and decisions based on their future plans and expectations!
LFFC
Reference the point you made about somebody on the PA Spine who PVRs. I don't know, I will go through my PA Spine file later, what happens when you PVR, but one point to note is that AFPS 05 is "....based on an individuals best 365 days pay during their last 3 years of service."
I don't see how they could change your pension scheme if you PVR as PA Spine, those rules were written long before AFPS 05 came along. They might make you revert to Spec Aircrew, as I said I have yet to check on that, but presumably if you were out within 2 years under AFPS 05 rules you would still get a pension based on a previous year on the PA Spine salary, i.e all your pay in that year as PA Spine counting as pensionable?? Any thoughts??
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As promotion to wg cdr is pretty much dependant on passing the ASC
There is legislation emerging within Europe to prevent discrimination on the grounds of age. However, the UK identified this early, lobbied fellow armed forces and managed to get an exemption for the Armed Forces written into the legislation at drafting stage within Europe. It also managed to secure the continued Armed Forces' exemption from the employment provisions of disability discrimination legislation in Europe. Something that the Maragaret Hodge , aptly the MP for Barking, was trying (unsuccesfully) to get removed from UK legislation. You can see her point, I suppose, I mean the Royal Marines do have wheelchair ramps on the front of some of their boats!
These are real exemptions written into legislation. Therefore, they are not like the ones we thought we had in the 70s/80s when we (on legal advice) belived we were exempt becuase the Military Procurement had an exemption from European competition rules.
Last edited by Climebear; 10th Jun 2005 at 19:01.
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__________________________________________________
PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those
who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.
___________________________________________________
No longer true.
I was told by my posting officer that to be assimilated as PA, I had to demonstrate the same qualities to "The Board" as for promotion. He intimated that it was for those who did not quite make Sqn Ldr.
So, to get promoted, you have to do pointless secondary duties well.
To get PA, you have to do pointless secondary duties badly.
If you are a good pilot, get yourself all the flying ticks, and concentrate on your primary role, you might as well join BA now!
PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those
who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.
___________________________________________________
No longer true.
I was told by my posting officer that to be assimilated as PA, I had to demonstrate the same qualities to "The Board" as for promotion. He intimated that it was for those who did not quite make Sqn Ldr.
So, to get promoted, you have to do pointless secondary duties well.
To get PA, you have to do pointless secondary duties badly.
If you are a good pilot, get yourself all the flying ticks, and concentrate on your primary role, you might as well join BA now!
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Ginseng..please read my post properly.
If a Gp Capt (Army full Col equiv) and Maj Army pilot on PES (A) (as Army pilot Lt Col's must revert back to CS) are both on AFPS 05...the PES (A) Maj at IDD level 35 will earn the same annual wage as a Gp Cpt in 1st year on apointment in that rank. By definition AFPS 05 IP is calculated on 50% of best / final 365 days salary in last 3 years service.
You have hit the nail though..the Army Maj can walk with a Gp Capt pension (calculated on wage in year 1 as above) once qual for AFPS 05 (1 day to qual) with 5 years on PES A from Apr 03. The Gp Capt currently on AFPS 75 has to do 2 years min in rank to get IPP at rep pay.
If he/she were to be on AFPS 05, he/she could be promoted to Gp Capt and retire 1 full year later at that wage, as the pension will be calculated on last 365 days salary of last 3 years service. So by a bu++ers muddle of 2 overlapping pension schemes, age, rank date, promotion date, retention scheme date, different service dates..my point is in fact correct.
Sometimes nonsense has a habit of becoming fact!
Indeed..I hear that the Army equiv of pay blunties initially said "nonsense..a Maj cannot get anywhere near a Col's pension"..er, ooops yes they can.....the green eyed monsters are out!!
If a Gp Capt (Army full Col equiv) and Maj Army pilot on PES (A) (as Army pilot Lt Col's must revert back to CS) are both on AFPS 05...the PES (A) Maj at IDD level 35 will earn the same annual wage as a Gp Cpt in 1st year on apointment in that rank. By definition AFPS 05 IP is calculated on 50% of best / final 365 days salary in last 3 years service.
You have hit the nail though..the Army Maj can walk with a Gp Capt pension (calculated on wage in year 1 as above) once qual for AFPS 05 (1 day to qual) with 5 years on PES A from Apr 03. The Gp Capt currently on AFPS 75 has to do 2 years min in rank to get IPP at rep pay.
If he/she were to be on AFPS 05, he/she could be promoted to Gp Capt and retire 1 full year later at that wage, as the pension will be calculated on last 365 days salary of last 3 years service. So by a bu++ers muddle of 2 overlapping pension schemes, age, rank date, promotion date, retention scheme date, different service dates..my point is in fact correct.
Sometimes nonsense has a habit of becoming fact!
Indeed..I hear that the Army equiv of pay blunties initially said "nonsense..a Maj cannot get anywhere near a Col's pension"..er, ooops yes they can.....the green eyed monsters are out!!
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Biggus,
Sorry, but I think you have been mislead by the description of an increase to 75% at age 55. What it means is that the percentage of preserved pension that you would receive as an EDP increases on a linear scale from age 40/18 years service, to age 55 (minus 1 day!), the age being your age on date of "early retirement". Therefore, if you retired aged 54 years and 364 days, you would receive ten years worth of 75% EDP ( but uplifted for inflation from first day in retirement), then full preserved pension at 65. Retire one day later (at age 55) and you receive your immediate full pension. It is an unlikely scenario, I know, but that distinction is there.
Muff C,
I have to say I see your point, and apologise. Perhaps I got confused with the widely mis-described "Group Captain Pension" used to sell the PA Spine deal when it was originally floated. Would you accept, however, that it is incredibly unlikely that a Wg Cdr/Lt Col would be promoted to Gp Capt/Col with one year or less to serve to age 55, so I still claim that to make comparison with "Group Captain on Appointment" pension rates is illusory.
As for the affect of PVR from AFPS05, this would of course mean "early" retirement, and hence payment only of the appropriate EDP until age 65. Whether PA/PES(A) would be held to complete the original 5 year committment from Apr 03 without further sanction, I do not yet know.
Regards
Ginseng
Added Later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Biggus,
Dammit, I am going to have to apologise again! Alarm bells rang and I delved in to JSP 764 Part 2, where the answer stared out at me from Para 0209 on page 2-3. You are right, the initial EDP is increased to 75% of the preserved pension, and index-linked, from age 55. Glad to set the record straight. You have destroyed my credibility on this forum - Well Done! Perhaps I should shut up now.
Regards
Ginseng
Sorry, but I think you have been mislead by the description of an increase to 75% at age 55. What it means is that the percentage of preserved pension that you would receive as an EDP increases on a linear scale from age 40/18 years service, to age 55 (minus 1 day!), the age being your age on date of "early retirement". Therefore, if you retired aged 54 years and 364 days, you would receive ten years worth of 75% EDP ( but uplifted for inflation from first day in retirement), then full preserved pension at 65. Retire one day later (at age 55) and you receive your immediate full pension. It is an unlikely scenario, I know, but that distinction is there.
Muff C,
I have to say I see your point, and apologise. Perhaps I got confused with the widely mis-described "Group Captain Pension" used to sell the PA Spine deal when it was originally floated. Would you accept, however, that it is incredibly unlikely that a Wg Cdr/Lt Col would be promoted to Gp Capt/Col with one year or less to serve to age 55, so I still claim that to make comparison with "Group Captain on Appointment" pension rates is illusory.
As for the affect of PVR from AFPS05, this would of course mean "early" retirement, and hence payment only of the appropriate EDP until age 65. Whether PA/PES(A) would be held to complete the original 5 year committment from Apr 03 without further sanction, I do not yet know.
Regards
Ginseng
Added Later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Biggus,
Dammit, I am going to have to apologise again! Alarm bells rang and I delved in to JSP 764 Part 2, where the answer stared out at me from Para 0209 on page 2-3. You are right, the initial EDP is increased to 75% of the preserved pension, and index-linked, from age 55. Glad to set the record straight. You have destroyed my credibility on this forum - Well Done! Perhaps I should shut up now.
Regards
Ginseng
Last edited by Ginseng; 10th Jun 2005 at 21:42.
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Stan Bydike,
I think you're generalising a bit much there, I know a lot of really good operators that have been promoted to sqn ldr and fallen into the age trap. Moreover, whilst I agree that there may be some aircrew that do all the good officer "ticks" and manage to get promoted quite quickly, they do tend to be quite sharp operators as well. I think what you are trying to say is that there is no substitute for experience - if so, I agree with you!
Biggus,
That's the problem with the PA Spine; it was all written with respect to the old pension plan. The only reference I can find regarding PVR from the PAS (AP 3393 Vol 2 Leaflet 1810) suggests that if you PVR, you will receive only the "Service Retired Pay paid on PVR that is specified annually by MOD". To me, that indicates an intention to penalise you for retiring early. However, I like your point about the new pension being based on the best year of the last 3 years of service - I can see some interesting disputes over the horizon.
Climebear,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that candidates are boarded for the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) prior to being boarded for promotion. The results of the ASC board are then a major factor used in boarding for promotion to wg cdr. If people are excluded from the ASC because of their age, then surely it follows that it affects how they score on the promotion board too. So their promotion prospects must be adversely affected! Yes, I know that places on the ASC are in short supply - but that's not really relevant.
But as I said, I know that we are exempt from legislation on ageism - for now.
I think you're generalising a bit much there, I know a lot of really good operators that have been promoted to sqn ldr and fallen into the age trap. Moreover, whilst I agree that there may be some aircrew that do all the good officer "ticks" and manage to get promoted quite quickly, they do tend to be quite sharp operators as well. I think what you are trying to say is that there is no substitute for experience - if so, I agree with you!
Biggus,
That's the problem with the PA Spine; it was all written with respect to the old pension plan. The only reference I can find regarding PVR from the PAS (AP 3393 Vol 2 Leaflet 1810) suggests that if you PVR, you will receive only the "Service Retired Pay paid on PVR that is specified annually by MOD". To me, that indicates an intention to penalise you for retiring early. However, I like your point about the new pension being based on the best year of the last 3 years of service - I can see some interesting disputes over the horizon.
Climebear,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that candidates are boarded for the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) prior to being boarded for promotion. The results of the ASC board are then a major factor used in boarding for promotion to wg cdr. If people are excluded from the ASC because of their age, then surely it follows that it affects how they score on the promotion board too. So their promotion prospects must be adversely affected! Yes, I know that places on the ASC are in short supply - but that's not really relevant.
But as I said, I know that we are exempt from legislation on ageism - for now.
Last edited by LFFC; 11th Jun 2005 at 09:21.
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Has anyone seen any figures (or tables as per AFPS 75) concerning the purchase of added years in AFPS 05? If I stay until 55 I will only have 32 years reckonable service rather than the 35 required to receive 50% of best year of last 3 years salary.
AFPS 05 appears to allow you a maximum of 40 years reckonable service. If you purchase added years to get to 40 years can you significantly boost the pension? If you can does it make financial sense to do so or could you get a better rate of return elsewhere?
Any answers out there? (other than get some time in sonny!)
Flo
AFPS 05 appears to allow you a maximum of 40 years reckonable service. If you purchase added years to get to 40 years can you significantly boost the pension? If you can does it make financial sense to do so or could you get a better rate of return elsewhere?
Any answers out there? (other than get some time in sonny!)
Flo
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AX F
Yes, you will be able to purchase added years over the remaining part of your service up to age 55. I believe though, in keeping with the current scheme, the maximum increase you can buy will be that required to bring you up to 35 years reckonable service at normal retirement age (provided this keeps you within Inland Revenue limits). I do not believe you would be able to contract to buy up to 40 years, since you could not guarantee to serve the extra time at the time of taking out the contract. The extra 5 years above normal retirement age must be attained by extra time actually served. That is my understanding (until someone proves me wrong again!). The reference for added years is JSP 764 Part 1 Chapter 5 (Paras 0501 to 0518).
Ginseng
Ginseng
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Ginsing,
I believe Biggus is right, If "I" retire at 50 (on the PA spine)
having joined at 16 my EDP is based on 50% of preserved pension at 40 plus 10 times 1.66 (call it a total of 66% of preserved pension). At 55 my EDP is increased to 75% of my preserved pension plus RPI....At 65 I get my pension plus the "other lump sum"....Thoughts?
I believe Biggus is right, If "I" retire at 50 (on the PA spine)
having joined at 16 my EDP is based on 50% of preserved pension at 40 plus 10 times 1.66 (call it a total of 66% of preserved pension). At 55 my EDP is increased to 75% of my preserved pension plus RPI....At 65 I get my pension plus the "other lump sum"....Thoughts?
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Attention All Readers
For another significant factor to consider, ivolving redundancy term structures announced in parliament on 21 Jun, see the new thread "More Cuts Coming", started by JunglyAEO on 22 Jun.
Ginseng
Ginseng
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pension schemes
Seems to be a fair bit of confusion and obviously individual cases will differ significantly.
Any ideas on where there are tables showing comparisons, or is there someone out there with the knowledge, and willing, to turn some of these details into a simple spreadsheet?
Any ideas on where there are tables showing comparisons, or is there someone out there with the knowledge, and willing, to turn some of these details into a simple spreadsheet?
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Oldfella
Sorry, Mate. There ain't no such thing as a "simple spread sheet" for this one! Read your OTT pack very carefully. They start sending out on 18th July; it could take 2-3 months for all to arrive.
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
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Most confusing thread.....there seems to be lots of variables to the AFPS. The one good thing about it all is that whether you go for the new pension or remain where you are, a pension of at or about £30k PA is bloomin fantastic....thank you Your Majesty.