Flying Pay
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MattDog
I commissioned as a nav in 2000 and went through the same thing as you seem to be going through. I wasn't sure about the Officers' rates they were paying me and questioned the P staff and Innsworth. They confirmed I should go on to the O's rates and have my NCA time taken into account. I then got a bill for Ģ8K around 12 months later. When I went back to stamp my feet, they effectively said "tough", cough up sunshine.
I pleaded I had spent all of the money and had received it in "good faith". However, it would seem "good faith" has no legal grounding... The Chief Clerk sent me a bunch of paperwork laying down the ground rules for a fight that they would work under. Effectively I had to show all of my income and out-goings and prove that any reduction in pay either through the cut in my flying pay or pay-back of said monies would cripple me financially. I did and I won... There is hope out there. Good info from the Chief Clerk. Try yours and he might help.
Isn't it funny (peculiar that is...) that even though the AP states that NCA time will count towards O's time, this document is wrong....? This is the only doc we have at our disposal. I'm sure any lawyer worth their salt in the contract law/HR side of things would take them to the cleaners. Not a comfortable route to take though.
Good luck me old cock-a-leekie. PM me if you can't get the regs from your chief clerk and I'll see if I 've still got the paperwork around....
I commissioned as a nav in 2000 and went through the same thing as you seem to be going through. I wasn't sure about the Officers' rates they were paying me and questioned the P staff and Innsworth. They confirmed I should go on to the O's rates and have my NCA time taken into account. I then got a bill for Ģ8K around 12 months later. When I went back to stamp my feet, they effectively said "tough", cough up sunshine.
I pleaded I had spent all of the money and had received it in "good faith". However, it would seem "good faith" has no legal grounding... The Chief Clerk sent me a bunch of paperwork laying down the ground rules for a fight that they would work under. Effectively I had to show all of my income and out-goings and prove that any reduction in pay either through the cut in my flying pay or pay-back of said monies would cripple me financially. I did and I won... There is hope out there. Good info from the Chief Clerk. Try yours and he might help.
Isn't it funny (peculiar that is...) that even though the AP states that NCA time will count towards O's time, this document is wrong....? This is the only doc we have at our disposal. I'm sure any lawyer worth their salt in the contract law/HR side of things would take them to the cleaners. Not a comfortable route to take though.
Good luck me old cock-a-leekie. PM me if you can't get the regs from your chief clerk and I'll see if I 've still got the paperwork around....
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PS
Sounds the same doesn't it?
There is a definite legal grounding about paid monies and estoppels which is the route you went down. You do have to prove that you've spent the money and would be financially disadvantaged if you had to pay it back, or if it's outside of 6 years then you don't have to pay it back.
The PSF guys have been spot on where I am and have backed me up with letters up the chain, just waiting for a reply.
Sounds the same doesn't it?
There is a definite legal grounding about paid monies and estoppels which is the route you went down. You do have to prove that you've spent the money and would be financially disadvantaged if you had to pay it back, or if it's outside of 6 years then you don't have to pay it back.
The PSF guys have been spot on where I am and have backed me up with letters up the chain, just waiting for a reply.
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, This makes me soooooooooo happy, I am so sorry but I may need to get another set of blues free, as the purple piss has stained them sooooooooo badly!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does anybody remember the betts report, they have finally applying his advice and are bringing you btards down to our level, what does it feel like to be acknowledged for what you do!
You aint seen me right
Does anybody remember the betts report, they have finally applying his advice and are bringing you btards down to our level, what does it feel like to be acknowledged for what you do!
You aint seen me right
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uneducated drygeezer
Well then drygeezer, the reason we get more flying pay than you is because we are educated to a much higher level and have a great deal more responsibility than you knockers. For example, when could you ever have the responsibility of aircraft captain, you rarely have to think beyond the galley.
YOU OIK, should have tried harder at school.
YOU OIK, should have tried harder at school.
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Drygeezer
If you're after a bite, then switch to receive...
You bitter and twisted little runt. Left school wanting to be an AEOp did we? I didn't think so. If can't keep your petty thoughts on this subject to yourself then kindly refrain from posting on this topic.
The people who this affects are all hard-working self-improvers (of course you wouldn't see being ac captain as a step up but work with me here). This isn't about disparity in Officer and NCA flying pay (let's not go there). I'm sure if you were an AEO, you wouldn't be handing back the additional pay... I've been aircrew for 13 years and was NCA for 8 years. I feel you do your NCA brethren a great deal of injustice posting immature comments such as yours. Comments like that can only help to widen the (ill-?)perceived gulf between commissioned and non-commissioned aircrew
This affects people on a very serious level in terms of being able to afford mortgages (or pay for our third sports car as you probably think). Being handed a bill for several thousand quid is enough to keep people awake at night and perhaps even affect them in the air. Dont' suppose you thought it affected you, did you? Based on your last post, I wouldn't expect you to be so intelligent or broad minded.
If I am guilty of the crime of descending this topic into a back-biting contest (as is the sad case of so many other topics) then I'm truly sorry to everyone. I just felt very strongly that this isn't a case of Os vs ORs, but an "Us" vs "Them"(ie the MoD).
Rant complete. Don't let me get dragged into any further comment.
If you're after a bite, then switch to receive...
You bitter and twisted little runt. Left school wanting to be an AEOp did we? I didn't think so. If can't keep your petty thoughts on this subject to yourself then kindly refrain from posting on this topic.
The people who this affects are all hard-working self-improvers (of course you wouldn't see being ac captain as a step up but work with me here). This isn't about disparity in Officer and NCA flying pay (let's not go there). I'm sure if you were an AEO, you wouldn't be handing back the additional pay... I've been aircrew for 13 years and was NCA for 8 years. I feel you do your NCA brethren a great deal of injustice posting immature comments such as yours. Comments like that can only help to widen the (ill-?)perceived gulf between commissioned and non-commissioned aircrew
This affects people on a very serious level in terms of being able to afford mortgages (or pay for our third sports car as you probably think). Being handed a bill for several thousand quid is enough to keep people awake at night and perhaps even affect them in the air. Dont' suppose you thought it affected you, did you? Based on your last post, I wouldn't expect you to be so intelligent or broad minded.
If I am guilty of the crime of descending this topic into a back-biting contest (as is the sad case of so many other topics) then I'm truly sorry to everyone. I just felt very strongly that this isn't a case of Os vs ORs, but an "Us" vs "Them"(ie the MoD).
Rant complete. Don't let me get dragged into any further comment.
Drygeezer, your clearly evident schadenfreude is thoroughly reprehensible. Your colleagues face very worrying financial uncertainty and to learn that others in their 'team', such as you, take malicious enjoyment from their misfortune is quite unacceptable.
If I were you I would either withdraw your post and apologise -or watch your back for the forseeable....
If I were you I would either withdraw your post and apologise -or watch your back for the forseeable....
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I believe that the admin staff at ISK have the definative in whats occurring. When the rest of us will find out is a variable feast.
Should this come to pass then I will go from Enhanced (Pilot) rate to Initial rate. This will put me in serious financial difficulty whilst I fight my corner. The comments of DryGeezer are wholly innappropriate.
To say this doesn't effect NCA is untrue, PMA are also reviewing any NCA who have had previous service (non-aircrew) taken into account against the NCA flying pay scales, as these are now based on years served not years as NCA. This also is apparently an error that has gone unnoticed like the one highlighted in this thread. So not only ex-NCA are going to get shafted it looks like this is only the thin end of the wedge.
ALL NCA and ex-NCA whom have received "credits" towards any type of Flying Pay are in the firing line on this one. Beware of comments, like the ones from Drygeezer, that may come and bite you on the arse when you are looking for support from the very people you have just ridiculed.
It may be Filthy but it's not Fun............
BEagle - Here here!
Should this come to pass then I will go from Enhanced (Pilot) rate to Initial rate. This will put me in serious financial difficulty whilst I fight my corner. The comments of DryGeezer are wholly innappropriate.
To say this doesn't effect NCA is untrue, PMA are also reviewing any NCA who have had previous service (non-aircrew) taken into account against the NCA flying pay scales, as these are now based on years served not years as NCA. This also is apparently an error that has gone unnoticed like the one highlighted in this thread. So not only ex-NCA are going to get shafted it looks like this is only the thin end of the wedge.
ALL NCA and ex-NCA whom have received "credits" towards any type of Flying Pay are in the firing line on this one. Beware of comments, like the ones from Drygeezer, that may come and bite you on the arse when you are looking for support from the very people you have just ridiculed.
It may be Filthy but it's not Fun............
BEagle - Here here!
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I've never recieved flying pay and do not have an issue with those that do. Personally, I think drygeezer needs to get his bumps read as he does not appear to be playing with a full deck. Incontinence is probably a medical downgrading in any trade or branch.
However, I think bigheads education response was shortsighted, becoming aircrew is not the highest educational hurdle to jump to get in the mob and should not be used as a defence of flying pay.
Regards
Retard
However, I think bigheads education response was shortsighted, becoming aircrew is not the highest educational hurdle to jump to get in the mob and should not be used as a defence of flying pay.
Regards
Retard
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Maybe I'm really missing something here.... All the old editions of AP3392 are surely replaced by the current edition, and that states:
(1). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who began IOT on or before 31 Mar 03, will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP during IOT. On commissioning and during Pilot or WSO training, they will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until such time as they have completed a 72 week QP, or are suspended from such training. They will then transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and will remain at this rate for 4 years. However, time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is to be counted towards progression up the officer rates of FP.
So, if you started IOT before 1 Apr 03, then these are your terms?!?
(1). With effect from 1 Apr 03, NCA who began IOT on or before 31 Mar 03, will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP during IOT. On commissioning and during Pilot or WSO training, they will continue to receive their NCA rate of FP until such time as they have completed a 72 week QP, or are suspended from such training. They will then transfer to the Initial Rate of FP for officers and will remain at this rate for 4 years. However, time spent in receipt of NCA rates of FP is to be counted towards progression up the officer rates of FP.
So, if you started IOT before 1 Apr 03, then these are your terms?!?
It seems that those affected believed that the rules have altered from the previous version of AP3392, which was in force at the time of their commissioning, as compared to the current version.
Does this not constitute a change to their Terms of Service, and entitle them to reserve rights of some kind?
Does this not constitute a change to their Terms of Service, and entitle them to reserve rights of some kind?
Unfortunately there is nothing new in any of this. 20 years ago the interpretation of the rules for ex AeOps undergoing Nav training was a hit and miss affair. In those days there were only 2 rates for NCOs and 2 rates for Officers. That still did not prevent problems though.
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Gents,
I think we all realise what the rules are now. The point they are making is that the current regs are S**t and are open to interpretation. Some have and some have not had the so called "credit" for previous service.
I believe someone who has not had credits has instigated a redress at ISK. This has opened a can of worms for those who have, here and elsewhere.
It looks like Messers Blades will be getting some revenue in the coming weeks.
It is Filthy and now fun...........
I think we all realise what the rules are now. The point they are making is that the current regs are S**t and are open to interpretation. Some have and some have not had the so called "credit" for previous service.
I believe someone who has not had credits has instigated a redress at ISK. This has opened a can of worms for those who have, here and elsewhere.
It looks like Messers Blades will be getting some revenue in the coming weeks.
It is Filthy and now fun...........
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As an Ex Dry man myself, I felt that this thread may not have been open to abuse by those down the back, there's always one!
I'm expecting an apology soon dryman!
Remember the network!
On an up beat note, it seems that the number of people that this has affected unknowingly may actually be making a difference. I hear that those up top are now listening due to the number of enquiries.
I'm expecting an apology soon dryman!
Remember the network!
On an up beat note, it seems that the number of people that this has affected unknowingly may actually be making a difference. I hear that those up top are now listening due to the number of enquiries.
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I don't see how this effects NCA in the same way. Even in this years armed forces pay review it states the qualifing period for going to middle rate FP is 'nines years reckonable service, three of which as aircrew'. It has even reconmended reducing the qual period for higher rate to eighteen years reconable.
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Matt et al,
Firstly I'd like to say how delighted the vast majority of rearcrew were/are that a few of the good guys get a chance to do what we would all like to - ie FLY. For you 'drygeezar' who appears to take a delight in others discomfort - firkin well GROW UP you muppet. I don't know YET who you are but as Matt alludes.... you will be found out. I don't get mad but in your case will make it my business to get even! Check your six, remove your vitriolic and ill-advised post. The rest of these guys require support here, not some envious and ill-timed smug pish. Understood?
For those, and there are many I know of, that have had this letter I imagine there will be a great deal of support and hope that the shinies sort this out PDQ.
Adminers and bean-counters - get a grip and resolve this fairly.
Rant over.
JR
Firstly I'd like to say how delighted the vast majority of rearcrew were/are that a few of the good guys get a chance to do what we would all like to - ie FLY. For you 'drygeezar' who appears to take a delight in others discomfort - firkin well GROW UP you muppet. I don't know YET who you are but as Matt alludes.... you will be found out. I don't get mad but in your case will make it my business to get even! Check your six, remove your vitriolic and ill-advised post. The rest of these guys require support here, not some envious and ill-timed smug pish. Understood?
For those, and there are many I know of, that have had this letter I imagine there will be a great deal of support and hope that the shinies sort this out PDQ.
Adminers and bean-counters - get a grip and resolve this fairly.
Rant over.
JR
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Perhaps the rationale behind this ruling is that it takes time to get accustomed to the officer lifestyle - the fine wines, trips to the opera, guns and dogs - and to leave the beer and sandwiches of the Sgt's Mess behind. Therefore, the expenditure is not incurred immediately and the extra dosh is not required!
BTW, before I am bombarded with hate mail, this is a joke. Probably not to PTC though!
BTW, before I am bombarded with hate mail, this is a joke. Probably not to PTC though!
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Although I have taken the mick with our officer brothers and sisters in the past, this post does not warrant dryman's response. As a dry man myself I feel disgusted at the comments made by this individual. If his identity becomes known then please feel free to pass it around. As for those fighting this injustice I wish you good fortune in the pursuit of a satisfactory settlement, i.e. the bean counters holding their hands up and saying we got it wrong and write off the costs. After all the recent cutbacks, sorry restructuring their must be some money left in the pot to write off what is a small amount to the air force in the overall great scheme of things, but a considerable amount to those concerned.
Doesn't the MOD state that people are its most important assets, well time for them to prove it.
Good luck people.
Doesn't the MOD state that people are its most important assets, well time for them to prove it.
Good luck people.
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Well, it seems that the good work from all the PSF guys helping us around the bazaars and all the pressure from those who didn't know they were being investigated has paid off!
Case dropped about the NCA to Officer time not counting towards flying pay if you were commissioned pre Apr 03. And for 10 of you out there it means a nice little pay out that you might have been fighting for..... or weren't expecting!! Don't know any names but I'm sure you'll find out soon.
Case dropped about the NCA to Officer time not counting towards flying pay if you were commissioned pre Apr 03. And for 10 of you out there it means a nice little pay out that you might have been fighting for..... or weren't expecting!! Don't know any names but I'm sure you'll find out soon.