Tsr2
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Pr00ne
"you expect me to be upset because some Professor thinks there is a disparity between the leading and lagging regions of the UK "
I'm not expecting you to be upset just realistic. I've added another one this time from a government source, admittedly Scottish but Labour dominated:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/bu...04/sb04-51.pdf
This one has us at 22nd down from 19th the previous year, and highlights the decline of the EU nations and states that this may getworse. We are ahead of Japan but behind the USA and Canada and Zheijand.
From the DTI:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/opportunityforall/indicators2/
"This contributes to a productivity performance which lags significantly behind the US, France and Germany."
Where are you taking your facts from?
Regards
Retard
"you expect me to be upset because some Professor thinks there is a disparity between the leading and lagging regions of the UK "
I'm not expecting you to be upset just realistic. I've added another one this time from a government source, admittedly Scottish but Labour dominated:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/bu...04/sb04-51.pdf
This one has us at 22nd down from 19th the previous year, and highlights the decline of the EU nations and states that this may getworse. We are ahead of Japan but behind the USA and Canada and Zheijand.
From the DTI:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/opportunityforall/indicators2/
"This contributes to a productivity performance which lags significantly behind the US, France and Germany."
Where are you taking your facts from?
Regards
Retard
engineer(retard),
UK is the 4th largest economy in the world, fact! Numerous sources. Competetiveness is a rather odd measure in a global economy. The measure of an economy is based on it's size, gross domestic product , wealth and wealth per capita, Take any of those and the UK ranks fourth.
In terms of ownership of assets and profitability the UK even ranks second or third in some sectors, I think a lot of what you are quoting is measuring manufacturing output which has precious little to do with a modern economy in the age of automation and low cost powerhouses such as China and India. We may still do a considerable amount of manufacturing in the UK but it is not the most profitable element of business.
UK is the 4th largest economy in the world, fact! Numerous sources. Competetiveness is a rather odd measure in a global economy. The measure of an economy is based on it's size, gross domestic product , wealth and wealth per capita, Take any of those and the UK ranks fourth.
In terms of ownership of assets and profitability the UK even ranks second or third in some sectors, I think a lot of what you are quoting is measuring manufacturing output which has precious little to do with a modern economy in the age of automation and low cost powerhouses such as China and India. We may still do a considerable amount of manufacturing in the UK but it is not the most profitable element of business.
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FJ
I think you will find the last Shacks ended up with ASV 21D which was invested into the Ninrod MR1.
I remember an airshow in 75, where a 70 year old Maritime veteran asked me to compare the ASV7 to the 21D. I explained best I could, and he then told me where I had gone wrong as he had designed it.
What a rotter!
I think you will find the last Shacks ended up with ASV 21D which was invested into the Ninrod MR1.
I remember an airshow in 75, where a 70 year old Maritime veteran asked me to compare the ASV7 to the 21D. I explained best I could, and he then told me where I had gone wrong as he had designed it.
What a rotter!
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I'm alarmed, every day, by the right wing views I read in the gutter press, and on this web site, let alone the hateful bile I hear in general conversation. What are we becoming?
My only consolation is that on 6th May, I will not wake up under the premiership of a hypocritical fascist and that common sense will prevail.
Better an imperfect Labour government than ultra right Thatcher mascarading as a vampire.
Edited because I trusted my spel chequer.
My only consolation is that on 6th May, I will not wake up under the premiership of a hypocritical fascist and that common sense will prevail.
Better an imperfect Labour government than ultra right Thatcher mascarading as a vampire.
Edited because I trusted my spel chequer.
Last edited by L Peacock; 2nd May 2005 at 18:47.
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prOOne
Is that because Phoney Tony and his gang carried on successful Tories policies set well in place by Maggie under the banner of New Labour?
Where are their traditional Socialist Labour ideals and policies which embrace equality, fairness and justice.?
Or are they established, as he and Strawman don't know how many illegal immigrants, gypsies, wannabies are in the country living in provided housing and on generous benefits, when there is an indigenous population, mainly pensioners, struggling on means testing?
I have just checked the Oxford Concise on the meanings of Integrity, Honesty and Trust.
Do these match up to yours, or your mates in government?
Have a read!
Is that because Phoney Tony and his gang carried on successful Tories policies set well in place by Maggie under the banner of New Labour?
Where are their traditional Socialist Labour ideals and policies which embrace equality, fairness and justice.?
Or are they established, as he and Strawman don't know how many illegal immigrants, gypsies, wannabies are in the country living in provided housing and on generous benefits, when there is an indigenous population, mainly pensioners, struggling on means testing?
I have just checked the Oxford Concise on the meanings of Integrity, Honesty and Trust.
Do these match up to yours, or your mates in government?
Have a read!
Ahem, ladies...
Was this not a thread started to discuss an aeroplane? Or was "TSR2" some codeword used to commence a catfight?
Unless I have missed it, nobody has seen fit to mention the Thunder and lightnings website, except in snippets - fascinating detail.
Anyway, whatever happened to Screaming Lord Sutch?
Was this not a thread started to discuss an aeroplane? Or was "TSR2" some codeword used to commence a catfight?
Unless I have missed it, nobody has seen fit to mention the Thunder and lightnings website, except in snippets - fascinating detail.
Anyway, whatever happened to Screaming Lord Sutch?
Last edited by passpartout; 2nd May 2005 at 18:56.
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Whoa, nice people let us not go off at a tangent! This thread is about the TSR2 not the politics of today or tomorrow, even though it may affect one or two of us holding different political persausions. There is plenty of that on PPRuNe right now.
TSR2 was cancelled in a trice! Literally!!! One minute it was there next minute it was gone. That tells you that the underlying principals of politics were much deeper than we realise. It was an act of wanton destruction and I cannot put it any other way. Even though PrOOne, who is perfectly entitled to his opinion thinks otherwise, I and many more think that it was a terrible conspiracy that will, one day, surface to show what the Labour government did on that day in 1965. Perhaps the FoI act might allow that now!
I referred to a piece from BAC on the subject. I think it tells us more than we THINK we know.
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co...2/history.html
TSR2 was cancelled in a trice! Literally!!! One minute it was there next minute it was gone. That tells you that the underlying principals of politics were much deeper than we realise. It was an act of wanton destruction and I cannot put it any other way. Even though PrOOne, who is perfectly entitled to his opinion thinks otherwise, I and many more think that it was a terrible conspiracy that will, one day, surface to show what the Labour government did on that day in 1965. Perhaps the FoI act might allow that now!
I referred to a piece from BAC on the subject. I think it tells us more than we THINK we know.
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co...2/history.html
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Just to correct Buoy 15, he is quite right when he said the Shackleton and Nimrod shared the ASV21 but overlooked that for half its life it was then 'upgraded' with the Gannet APS20 and 3 scopes, to fullfil the AEW role.
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Aye PN
Magnetrons the size of dustbins and thyratrons so big you could see the electrons flowing through them. Try telling the youth of today and they won't believe you.
Regards
Retard
PS I was just getting revved up on GDP, I really hate spin. Vote Monster raving loony, the only party with honest policies
Magnetrons the size of dustbins and thyratrons so big you could see the electrons flowing through them. Try telling the youth of today and they won't believe you.
Regards
Retard
PS I was just getting revved up on GDP, I really hate spin. Vote Monster raving loony, the only party with honest policies
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pr00ne was so busy defending his corner that he didn't pick up on the truth of the potential coup in 1974 - not 1966 when there was a labour landslide.
By 1974 the country was enjoying a massive BOOM under labour. I was flying a Navy minister at the time old Harold slide out from under.
By 1974 the country was enjoying a massive BOOM under labour. I was flying a Navy minister at the time old Harold slide out from under.
Buoy15,
Carried on successful Tory policies? No, I don’t think so, I don’t recall any interest rate hikes to 15.7% recently or other similar mismanagement of the economy.
PPRuNe Pop,
TSR-2 was NOT cancelled in a thrice! There was endless discussion on whether to cancel it, whether it was worth the money, whether it could be afforded or whether it was needed any more, it aroused similar emotion to that of Concorde. Labour were elected in October 1964, their first budget in the November did NOT cancel TSR-2 nor did their first Defence White paper in February 1965. What it did do was state that the affordability of TSR-2 was being studied with the F-111K as a possible alternative. A worsening economic situation forced their hand in the April 1965 budget when it finally WAS cancelled!
Pontius Navigator,
1974? Afraid I was in Germany then and not too familiar with any potential rumblings in Blighty. A coup? Well, the cuts of that year WERE bad but they were started by the in power Tories the previous year and Labour were only elected in February with a majority over the Tories of 3 but in a hung parliament. However a snap election in the October of the same year produced a Labour majority of 42 so once again any coup would have been undemocratic and unrepresentative.
As to Wilson resigning in 1976, what would YOU do if you were already seriously ill, exhausted after being PM or leader of the opposition for over a decade and were then diagnosed with cancer of the Colon?
Carried on successful Tory policies? No, I don’t think so, I don’t recall any interest rate hikes to 15.7% recently or other similar mismanagement of the economy.
PPRuNe Pop,
TSR-2 was NOT cancelled in a thrice! There was endless discussion on whether to cancel it, whether it was worth the money, whether it could be afforded or whether it was needed any more, it aroused similar emotion to that of Concorde. Labour were elected in October 1964, their first budget in the November did NOT cancel TSR-2 nor did their first Defence White paper in February 1965. What it did do was state that the affordability of TSR-2 was being studied with the F-111K as a possible alternative. A worsening economic situation forced their hand in the April 1965 budget when it finally WAS cancelled!
Pontius Navigator,
1974? Afraid I was in Germany then and not too familiar with any potential rumblings in Blighty. A coup? Well, the cuts of that year WERE bad but they were started by the in power Tories the previous year and Labour were only elected in February with a majority over the Tories of 3 but in a hung parliament. However a snap election in the October of the same year produced a Labour majority of 42 so once again any coup would have been undemocratic and unrepresentative.
As to Wilson resigning in 1976, what would YOU do if you were already seriously ill, exhausted after being PM or leader of the opposition for over a decade and were then diagnosed with cancer of the Colon?
Last edited by pr00ne; 3rd May 2005 at 12:33.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
pr00ne, I would have told someone. It was a complete and numbing surprise to his minister who, had he known, would not have been flying over the ogg at the time.
No doubt I saw you at Bruggen then.
Certainly HW was in the chair at the time of the rumblings and who said anything about democratic. As I recall, at the time, there was an underlying assumption that the Establishment ran the country regardless of the party in power.
The Nott cuts that came later were even better than the TSR2 debacle. I agree about the undercurrents and talk at the time. My uncle was on the project. What was 'in a trice' was the way everything was destroyed PDQ and arguing that unused jigs are only worth selling from scrap the next day is a bit iffy.
There is always someone who would want to hang on to drawings etc. They cost money, OK they also take up space, but who knew then that they might not be needed as the start of the next project?
How long did it take for the SR71 or the B177 to be wound up and discarded?
No doubt I saw you at Bruggen then.
Certainly HW was in the chair at the time of the rumblings and who said anything about democratic. As I recall, at the time, there was an underlying assumption that the Establishment ran the country regardless of the party in power.
The Nott cuts that came later were even better than the TSR2 debacle. I agree about the undercurrents and talk at the time. My uncle was on the project. What was 'in a trice' was the way everything was destroyed PDQ and arguing that unused jigs are only worth selling from scrap the next day is a bit iffy.
There is always someone who would want to hang on to drawings etc. They cost money, OK they also take up space, but who knew then that they might not be needed as the start of the next project?
How long did it take for the SR71 or the B177 to be wound up and discarded?
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"Omark44
What utter nonsense! The only choice people like you face is whether to vote BNP or UKIP, you must be so upset you can’t vote National Front any more.
Racist alarmist inaccurate claptrap!"
Can't let you get away with that pr00ne , you should know better, shouting "racist" is done all too often when someone chooses to offer up a 'not quite PC but nevertheless' fact.
Immigration in the UK is a total shambles, has been for years and is getting worse. Howard is trying to appeal to the people in those areas that are most adversely effected by this, traditionally Labour voters.
Only ever voted Tory, there is nothing BNP, NF or UKIP about me or anything I have said. You are obviously a rabid socialist but you should know better than to shout "racist" just because someone mentions a fact that you are uncomfortable with.
What utter nonsense! The only choice people like you face is whether to vote BNP or UKIP, you must be so upset you can’t vote National Front any more.
Racist alarmist inaccurate claptrap!"
Can't let you get away with that pr00ne , you should know better, shouting "racist" is done all too often when someone chooses to offer up a 'not quite PC but nevertheless' fact.
Immigration in the UK is a total shambles, has been for years and is getting worse. Howard is trying to appeal to the people in those areas that are most adversely effected by this, traditionally Labour voters.
Only ever voted Tory, there is nothing BNP, NF or UKIP about me or anything I have said. You are obviously a rabid socialist but you should know better than to shout "racist" just because someone mentions a fact that you are uncomfortable with.
I think people tend to look at the TSR-2 through rose-tinted glasses.
Not sure it would have been better in the end than the F-111 which turned out to be an outstanding and versatile aeroplane, able to carry a large variety of ordinance a long way and in all weathers.
Not sure it would have been better in the end than the F-111 which turned out to be an outstanding and versatile aeroplane, able to carry a large variety of ordinance a long way and in all weathers.
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PN
Thank you, how remiss of me
I actually flew 4 sorties with 8 Sqn out of Lossie
When I wrote the thread, I was in Maritime mode and forgot about the excelent service the Grey Old Lady provided in the latter years
As an aside, I have a Griffon piston (3000 cc), turned down into a paperweight/ashtray, which I was given at Ballykelly in 1968.
Thank you, how remiss of me
I actually flew 4 sorties with 8 Sqn out of Lossie
When I wrote the thread, I was in Maritime mode and forgot about the excelent service the Grey Old Lady provided in the latter years
As an aside, I have a Griffon piston (3000 cc), turned down into a paperweight/ashtray, which I was given at Ballykelly in 1968.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Buoy15 and I had a few jars in Limavardy and steaks in the mess too.
I know we're hijacking a thread but the only good things about the APS 20 setup in the Shack was . . .
hang on I'm trying to think . . .
oh well . . .
At least I once got a pickup on a Bear at 220 miles. The initial pickup had been at 205 then over an hour later we lost him and then got him again as he came back into to cover.
Would you believe that in the 20 minutes out of cover the Victor and two interceptors had all changed over! Took us longer sorting out callsigns and air picture than the first pick up.
I know we're hijacking a thread but the only good things about the APS 20 setup in the Shack was . . .
hang on I'm trying to think . . .
oh well . . .
At least I once got a pickup on a Bear at 220 miles. The initial pickup had been at 205 then over an hour later we lost him and then got him again as he came back into to cover.
Would you believe that in the 20 minutes out of cover the Victor and two interceptors had all changed over! Took us longer sorting out callsigns and air picture than the first pick up.
Amazing, isn't it. 27 years after the miserable socialists killed off the magnificent TSR2 we finally got rid of that embarrassing anachronism which was the UK's only AEW asset....
But I hasten to add that the old thing managed to do so pretty well!
One stayed overnight dribbling oil over the ASP at Wattisham when I was on F4s. It took off, we had a cup of coffee, then did a trip. Debriefed, then another trip and another debrief. The ageing old Shacklebomber was still wending its weary way back to Jockistan......
But I hasten to add that the old thing managed to do so pretty well!
One stayed overnight dribbling oil over the ASP at Wattisham when I was on F4s. It took off, we had a cup of coffee, then did a trip. Debriefed, then another trip and another debrief. The ageing old Shacklebomber was still wending its weary way back to Jockistan......
Last edited by BEagle; 3rd May 2005 at 22:12.
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I was an apprentoid at BAC Warton after the demise of TSR2 and one of our drawing instructors (who'd been a draughtsman at the time of the cancellation) told us stories of the day of the cancellation, when big wheely bins were pushed through the enormous DO for all sketches, drawings and prototype parts to be dropped into.
He'd saved a few bits and pieces and there was one machined bracket that he used to give to the better draughtspeople in the course as a test (I was a 'leccie, so was excused this!). On the face of it, it looked like a machined U shaped bracket. On closer inspection, I don't think there was one face of it that was parallel or perpendicular to anything else - all surfaces seemed to have a miniscule taper / chamfer!
TSR2 was my absolute favourite aircraft (but only pushing Lightning into 2nd place by a whisker) - would have negated the need for Tornado. From what I have seen, however, it needed a very significant amount of work to make it manufacturable in any quantities. I also believe that it was a necessary interim stage of design and many features were taken forward into Jaguar / Tornado, so in modern parlance could be termed a 'derisking' exercise.
He'd saved a few bits and pieces and there was one machined bracket that he used to give to the better draughtspeople in the course as a test (I was a 'leccie, so was excused this!). On the face of it, it looked like a machined U shaped bracket. On closer inspection, I don't think there was one face of it that was parallel or perpendicular to anything else - all surfaces seemed to have a miniscule taper / chamfer!
TSR2 was my absolute favourite aircraft (but only pushing Lightning into 2nd place by a whisker) - would have negated the need for Tornado. From what I have seen, however, it needed a very significant amount of work to make it manufacturable in any quantities. I also believe that it was a necessary interim stage of design and many features were taken forward into Jaguar / Tornado, so in modern parlance could be termed a 'derisking' exercise.
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"If it's dripping it's not empty"
From working F4, posted to Lossie and hearing a tannoy of "8 hours to Q launch" used to make me smile.
"As an aside, I have a Griffon piston (3000 cc), turned down into a paperweight/ashtray, which I was given at Ballykelly in 1968."
If you had been given the APS20 indicator you could have emptied it and used it as a garden shed, complete with a round window.
From working F4, posted to Lossie and hearing a tannoy of "8 hours to Q launch" used to make me smile.
"As an aside, I have a Griffon piston (3000 cc), turned down into a paperweight/ashtray, which I was given at Ballykelly in 1968."
If you had been given the APS20 indicator you could have emptied it and used it as a garden shed, complete with a round window.