Tsr2
have seen the prototype at Cosford. An awesome beast.
According to Insty snr the govt of the time axed it in preference for F-111 which the RAF never got.
From what I've read it would still be something special but perhaps not very relevant.
I also believe that some of the TSR2 technology fouund it's way in to the Tornado. I'd like confirmation of that though.
According to Insty snr the govt of the time axed it in preference for F-111 which the RAF never got.
From what I've read it would still be something special but perhaps not very relevant.
I also believe that some of the TSR2 technology fouund it's way in to the Tornado. I'd like confirmation of that though.
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Atrixo
If you mean the aircraft called the TSR2 made at Warton it did not fail it was cancelled by Harold Wilson when he became Prime Minister in Oct/Nov 1964. This was an act of political revenge and had nothing to do with the performance of the TSR2.
We had just moved all three Vulcan B2 Squadrons from Coningsby to Cottesmore when Wison won the election and cancelled the aircraft. Coningsby was to be refurbished to accept the TSR2. Most of us who flew Vulcans expected to be the first to fly the new aircraft when it entered service. By all accounts it was an outstanding aircraft which was a British design. I once saw it in the sky when I was flying some chums from Manchester Barton in a Cessna 172 aiming to look at Southport and Blackpool. Nearest I ever got as it was scrapped a few weeks later.
Wilson had all the jigs for the aircraft destroyed so it could not be resurrected and virtually all the airframes were used for some kind of explosive practice at Shoeburyness Experimental range.
ACW
If you mean the aircraft called the TSR2 made at Warton it did not fail it was cancelled by Harold Wilson when he became Prime Minister in Oct/Nov 1964. This was an act of political revenge and had nothing to do with the performance of the TSR2.
We had just moved all three Vulcan B2 Squadrons from Coningsby to Cottesmore when Wison won the election and cancelled the aircraft. Coningsby was to be refurbished to accept the TSR2. Most of us who flew Vulcans expected to be the first to fly the new aircraft when it entered service. By all accounts it was an outstanding aircraft which was a British design. I once saw it in the sky when I was flying some chums from Manchester Barton in a Cessna 172 aiming to look at Southport and Blackpool. Nearest I ever got as it was scrapped a few weeks later.
Wilson had all the jigs for the aircraft destroyed so it could not be resurrected and virtually all the airframes were used for some kind of explosive practice at Shoeburyness Experimental range.
ACW
Cancelled almost exactly 40 years ago by another traitorous loony lefty Labour 
mis-government.
But only after it had been stabbed in the back by the efforts of the Earl Mountbottom who had wrecked its chances by advocating naval air power from vulnerable aircraft carriers instead.....
TSR2 - the best aeroplane the RAF never had.
mis-government.But only after it had been stabbed in the back by the efforts of the Earl Mountbottom who had wrecked its chances by advocating naval air power from vulnerable aircraft carriers instead.....
TSR2 - the best aeroplane the RAF never had.
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"But only after it had been stabbed in the back by the efforts of the Earl Mountbottom who had wrecked its chances by advocating naval air power from vulnerable aircraft carriers instead....."
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How ironic then, that the future of the RAF's power projection is dependent upon operating from aircraft carriers made even more vulnerable due to the RAF getting carrier-borne fighters scrapped!
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How ironic then, that the future of the RAF's power projection is dependent upon operating from aircraft carriers made even more vulnerable due to the RAF getting carrier-borne fighters scrapped!
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TSR2 Info
Roland Beamont wrote a wonderful Book
'TESTING YEARS' ISBN 0711010722 Published by Ian Allen Ltd
The book includes an excellent section on Test Flying this machine and some of the background as to its demise.
Orions***
'TESTING YEARS' ISBN 0711010722 Published by Ian Allen Ltd
The book includes an excellent section on Test Flying this machine and some of the background as to its demise.
Orions***
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And here is a print of the ill fated TSR2. 400 of these prints were a gift to PPRuNe to raise money for the PPRuNe Fund, which I run.
Just thought I would add that in
They are only £35 inc P&P and you get a link to the 'Bee' picture below.
And here is the great man signing one of them in April 2001 while he was very ill. But it didn't stop him staying with us for three hours and a super lunch, telling us of the days when........all wonderful stories.
Just thought I would add that in
They are only £35 inc P&P and you get a link to the 'Bee' picture below.And here is the great man signing one of them in April 2001 while he was very ill. But it didn't stop him staying with us for three hours and a super lunch, telling us of the days when........all wonderful stories.
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Ahh... TSR2... How many years ahead of its time was it? A Low level strike and Recon A/C that was meant to cut the mustard and quite possibly would have. I wonder if it had gone ahead as planned, whether Tornado would have even been dreamed of. Certainly, the requirement as then seen, would have been fulfilled umpteenfold with a real showstopper, when the dreamers got together and eventually came up with Tonka. (Also check out the abortive Anglo French jobs that came in TSR2s wake, like AFVG etc. and then, the bargain purchase of the US F- 111K. Still - I digress.) The RAF ended up with a much loved and even more respected alternative, which those in command had apparently tried to poo poo since the inception of TSR2 - The one and only "Banana bomber" - The Buccaneer
Memories? Personally, none at all, though I have looked over the Cosford example and it looks hornier than (fill in here). However, I did talk to a very senior ex RAF engineer who opined that with its largely hard wired systems (way before LRUs made it big time) that it might have been a very hard aeroplane to keep serviceable (but wasn't the Lightning a verticle learning curve for the RAF too?)
A few gems tooled out of innocent reading were fascinating - along with the politics that killed TSR2. Remember the proposed British buy of what was to be F-111K? Ok - Do you remember how much financial deep doo doo we were in at the time? All part of the same defence parcel that bought Albert to our shores.
One of the Warton test pilots (Jimmy Dell, I think) followed TSR2 back from Boscombe to Warton at low level in a Lightning and even in reheat whilst TSR2 was dry,was out accelerated by the big white bird - and this in '64/65.)
Well, the odd schooner of Stella Artois and drooping eyelids suggest that I STFU and go to bed. However, I leave afficianados a link if they wish to see more
http://www.targetlock.org.uk/tsr2/index.html
I would have loved to see this aeroplane fly...... I reckon it is Tonkas' true Dad. Anyway - off to bed now, awaiting birdsong plus a CAT3 hangover.
Nitey nite
Memories? Personally, none at all, though I have looked over the Cosford example and it looks hornier than (fill in here). However, I did talk to a very senior ex RAF engineer who opined that with its largely hard wired systems (way before LRUs made it big time) that it might have been a very hard aeroplane to keep serviceable (but wasn't the Lightning a verticle learning curve for the RAF too?)
A few gems tooled out of innocent reading were fascinating - along with the politics that killed TSR2. Remember the proposed British buy of what was to be F-111K? Ok - Do you remember how much financial deep doo doo we were in at the time? All part of the same defence parcel that bought Albert to our shores.
One of the Warton test pilots (Jimmy Dell, I think) followed TSR2 back from Boscombe to Warton at low level in a Lightning and even in reheat whilst TSR2 was dry,was out accelerated by the big white bird - and this in '64/65.)
Well, the odd schooner of Stella Artois and drooping eyelids suggest that I STFU and go to bed. However, I leave afficianados a link if they wish to see more
http://www.targetlock.org.uk/tsr2/index.html
I would have loved to see this aeroplane fly...... I reckon it is Tonkas' true Dad. Anyway - off to bed now, awaiting birdsong plus a CAT3 hangover.
Nitey nite
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Tactical Strike Reconaissance Two
I wonder if it had gone ahead as planned, whether Tornado would have even been dreamed of.
It would indeed have been a hard aeroplane to keep serviceable but we who served back then were doing OK with the Vulcan. Now that was a hard beast to keep serviceable...
Then there was the all electric Valiant
The apprentice training syllabus's at Halton and Cosford were revised in 1963/64 to train specialists for the TSR2, offering both Technician and Craft apprenticeships. The Boy Entrants were phased out. Meanwhile, out in the operational RAF, the trade structure itself was modified with new trade classifications in trade group 1 - i.e. the new Aircraft Technicians and Electronic Technicians, together with the accompanying Aircraft Fitters and Electronic Fitters to go with them. TSR2 was quite a watershed for the RAF maintenance organization even though it never entered service.
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In the narrative at the bottom of the print, which 'Bee' Beamont approved, he declares that if TSR2 had gone ahead there would have been no need at all for Tornado.
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More on the TSR 2
Gents for those interested perhaps I may suggest the following:
Bea Beaumonts "Phoenix into Ashes" lots on the TSR 2 toward the end of the book after explaining how and what BEA had done to get to being its test pilot. Also includes the story of selling the license to make the Canbera to the USA (B57 i think) and how far ahead of the competition it really was at the time.
Peter Twiss "Faster than the sun" another great read extoling the virtues of the British aviation industry before HM Govt f#<l<ed it over and how they broke the 1000mph barrier record but more importantly in a contest versus Uncle SAM we had more to do in proving that we had done it. (bit like the tail on the X craft and the promised exchange of ideas on supersonic programmes but thats another story....... Me Me Me)
Also Lance Cole "Vickers VC 10" not pointy stuff but still in the fast lane; another example how the Brits solved the problems thrown at them, developed the potential of a real world beater only to have the rug pulled from under them on a global scale by none other than .....HM Govt.
I had heard that the Jag was to be a lead in trainer fro crews destined for the high speed low level capabilities of TSR 2 but have no verification of this.
We have had a great heritage in aviation and should be proud of it unfortunately all we are left with is Waste of Space and Westlands.
Bea Beaumonts "Phoenix into Ashes" lots on the TSR 2 toward the end of the book after explaining how and what BEA had done to get to being its test pilot. Also includes the story of selling the license to make the Canbera to the USA (B57 i think) and how far ahead of the competition it really was at the time.
Peter Twiss "Faster than the sun" another great read extoling the virtues of the British aviation industry before HM Govt f#<l<ed it over and how they broke the 1000mph barrier record but more importantly in a contest versus Uncle SAM we had more to do in proving that we had done it. (bit like the tail on the X craft and the promised exchange of ideas on supersonic programmes but thats another story....... Me Me Me)
Also Lance Cole "Vickers VC 10" not pointy stuff but still in the fast lane; another example how the Brits solved the problems thrown at them, developed the potential of a real world beater only to have the rug pulled from under them on a global scale by none other than .....HM Govt.
I had heard that the Jag was to be a lead in trainer fro crews destined for the high speed low level capabilities of TSR 2 but have no verification of this.
We have had a great heritage in aviation and should be proud of it unfortunately all we are left with is Waste of Space and Westlands.
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Ah! TSR2 - I saw it fly through the school window. I got told off for not concentrating on the lesson (either French or History, neither of which I excelled at), but it was one of the best value tellings off I ever had.
Later went to work for BAC (as was) in the Jaguar & MRCA (as was) days. The memories of the TSR2 redundancies still smarted among the survivors. The comment that sticks is them saying 'just look at this [avionics] kit we've got now compared with what we had then. Imagine what we could achieve if we had an airframe like TSR2 to hang it on'.
BAC had the last laugh anyway, look at Tornado and Jaguar, especially Jaguar, from certain angles and you can clearly see the TSR2 parentage.
Scrapped indeed as an act of political incompetence - my recollection is that it was a condition of a loan (or some such) from our friends across the pond that we totally scrap the TSR2 project and buy F111s. Eventually cancelled the F111 order because they didn't do the job and paid swingeing penalty charges.
Happy days.
Later went to work for BAC (as was) in the Jaguar & MRCA (as was) days. The memories of the TSR2 redundancies still smarted among the survivors. The comment that sticks is them saying 'just look at this [avionics] kit we've got now compared with what we had then. Imagine what we could achieve if we had an airframe like TSR2 to hang it on'.
BAC had the last laugh anyway, look at Tornado and Jaguar, especially Jaguar, from certain angles and you can clearly see the TSR2 parentage.
Scrapped indeed as an act of political incompetence - my recollection is that it was a condition of a loan (or some such) from our friends across the pond that we totally scrap the TSR2 project and buy F111s. Eventually cancelled the F111 order because they didn't do the job and paid swingeing penalty charges.
Happy days.
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When I was doing my basic Chipmunk flying at Middle Wallop I had a hiring in Nether Wallop and was lucky enough to see TSR2 overfly the back garden low and slow a couple of times when arriving/departing Boscombe Down, really beautiful. Did any RAF pilots ever get their hands on it? I imagine the Testers from BD were queueing up!
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Ah Comrade Wilson, somebody from the Komitet Gosudarstvennoi Bezopestnosti on the line for you !
Happy days indeed, just off to the IMF for another bail out loan. Was it total incompetence or something more sinister ? We'll never know
What a beautiful aeroplane though ! Is there some Concorde pedigree there too ?
Happy days indeed, just off to the IMF for another bail out loan. Was it total incompetence or something more sinister ? We'll never know
What a beautiful aeroplane though ! Is there some Concorde pedigree there too ?
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Lest we all be guilty of the rose tinted specs, and I admit to plagiarism in the following as I am far too young to have been involved.
Whilst a magnificent machine, as a development project TSR2 was out of control. The development of the engines, which were originally going to be an upgrade of the Olympus 200 was estimated to cost about £7.3m. By 1964 this cost had risen to £32m. The project management was all over the place, the prime BAC(Vickers) only having responsibility of about a third of the cost centre, the rest was split between various contracts direct from the Ministry, with some GFE.
This was a worse situation than the later Nimrod AEW because there was no single systems integrator or central project management. A lot of the technology was innovative and high risk with changes to specifications coming in isolation without consideration of the impact on other areas of development. No-one could get a handle on costs.
The post project lessons were incorporated into the Plowden report that led to collaboration on Concorde, Jaguar and Martel, with recommendations to buy from the US for systems that required considerable development. The Downey report followed shortly afterward, and we still feel the impact of that one in how military projects are managed today.
Regards
Retard
Whilst a magnificent machine, as a development project TSR2 was out of control. The development of the engines, which were originally going to be an upgrade of the Olympus 200 was estimated to cost about £7.3m. By 1964 this cost had risen to £32m. The project management was all over the place, the prime BAC(Vickers) only having responsibility of about a third of the cost centre, the rest was split between various contracts direct from the Ministry, with some GFE.
This was a worse situation than the later Nimrod AEW because there was no single systems integrator or central project management. A lot of the technology was innovative and high risk with changes to specifications coming in isolation without consideration of the impact on other areas of development. No-one could get a handle on costs.
The post project lessons were incorporated into the Plowden report that led to collaboration on Concorde, Jaguar and Martel, with recommendations to buy from the US for systems that required considerable development. The Downey report followed shortly afterward, and we still feel the impact of that one in how military projects are managed today.
Regards
Retard
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"Whilst a magnificent machine, as a development project TSR2 was out of control. "
We're not cooing at the project management, nor the procurement management, but at the machine.
TSR2 was being built back in the days of the so-called cost-plus contract. Two sides to that coin: suppliers had to justify their costs to MOD(PE) and then got paid a contracted amount over; in return MOD(PE) seemed to feel they could ask for anything they wanted AND to change any decision they had made previously about what they wanted - which of course cost them, plus a bit. As I understood it at the time, there was supposed to be central project management, but by Government - their incompetence at that cannot be blamed on the contractors nor the engineers.
I was not involved in Nimrod, but have been told similar problems occurred inasmuch as MOD asked the impossible, then decided to buy something different from our friends abroad.
Me bitter? Nah. Those projects recycled a lot of tax money, and paid a lot of peoples' mortgages, and fed and educated their kids.
MadamB
We're not cooing at the project management, nor the procurement management, but at the machine.
TSR2 was being built back in the days of the so-called cost-plus contract. Two sides to that coin: suppliers had to justify their costs to MOD(PE) and then got paid a contracted amount over; in return MOD(PE) seemed to feel they could ask for anything they wanted AND to change any decision they had made previously about what they wanted - which of course cost them, plus a bit. As I understood it at the time, there was supposed to be central project management, but by Government - their incompetence at that cannot be blamed on the contractors nor the engineers.
I was not involved in Nimrod, but have been told similar problems occurred inasmuch as MOD asked the impossible, then decided to buy something different from our friends abroad.
Me bitter? Nah. Those projects recycled a lot of tax money, and paid a lot of peoples' mortgages, and fed and educated their kids.
MadamB
When a mere school kid I did a project on aircraft. BAC (as was) sent me a photo of this most magnificent of aircraft in response to my request for help, never thought anything of it but still have it to this day. Many years ago I was fortunate to meet Bee at an Oxford Uni' lecture & I took the photo along to get his autograph, the picture is identical to the painting shown (if someone can give me a site to post it on I'll gladly scan it for all to see). His lecture was fantastic & the poor man had tears in his eyes when talking about TSR-2, bless him. Now, look carefully at the picture (or my photo if possible), the airbrakes are unlocked, BAC never could cure that & as a result it is the only aircraft to go through the sound barrier with its airbrakes open (Bee's words), it also easily out accelerated the Lightning chase aircraft from where the picture was taken.
There were many teething problems (as is expected) that could not be resolved before the axe fell, the undercarriage problems are legendery having to land many times with the bogies not trimming to the landing position (ie seemingly on tip-toe), but another less known was that the many fuel pumps apparently resonated at the same frequency of the eye balls (didn't / don't understand that) which caused the crews vision to blurr during the take-off run when all were selected on.
There were many teething problems (as is expected) that could not be resolved before the axe fell, the undercarriage problems are legendery having to land many times with the bogies not trimming to the landing position (ie seemingly on tip-toe), but another less known was that the many fuel pumps apparently resonated at the same frequency of the eye balls (didn't / don't understand that) which caused the crews vision to blurr during the take-off run when all were selected on.
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Ah! TSR2 - I saw it fly through the school window. I got told off for not concentrating on the lesson (either French or History, neither of which I excelled at), but it was one of the best value tellings off I ever had.
Blimey, that is low level! Did you have time to open the window?
It would have been a tricky manouevre at our school, we only had windows on one side of the classroom.
Blimey, that is low level! Did you have time to open the window?
It would have been a tricky manouevre at our school, we only had windows on one side of the classroom.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
My father worked on the electrical generation system. It was state of the art and right up against the limit, they could not squeeze one more volt from - but every day someone came around asking for a few more....
The thought came to mind of the the old american sitcom (Gabor?) where they had to work out what they could afford to plug in/turn on at one time in case they tripped the lot.
He said they all breathed a big sigh of relief when it was cancelled....
The thought came to mind of the the old american sitcom (Gabor?) where they had to work out what they could afford to plug in/turn on at one time in case they tripped the lot.
He said they all breathed a big sigh of relief when it was cancelled....
