Tsr2
PPRuNe Pop,
I may indeed be attempting to defend the indefensible. Still think far too much is made of it though, it didn't work did it? They did go on to order the F-111K, surely the decision would have come from Civil servants and not politicians?
I may indeed be attempting to defend the indefensible. Still think far too much is made of it though, it didn't work did it? They did go on to order the F-111K, surely the decision would have come from Civil servants and not politicians?
It did work!
It was killed by the Labour government.
Yet another occasion when the licking of American backsides by lying Labour politicians was a national scandal.
NEVER trust ANY Labour politician.....
It was killed by the Labour government.
Yet another occasion when the licking of American backsides by lying Labour politicians was a national scandal.
NEVER trust ANY Labour politician.....
Surely you mean...........ANY politician? Although the current lot seem worse than most.
PS If Mountbatten had so much influence over the 1960s Labour Government, then how come they scrapped the carriers?
PS If Mountbatten had so much influence over the 1960s Labour Government, then how come they scrapped the carriers?
BEagle,
I actually meant the plan to have it destroyed and consigned to oblivion didn't work and that far too much is made of the instruction to destroy prototypes and tooling.
If the Tories had won the Oct 1964 election they would have cancelled it too. The party of Duncan Sandys and "no more manned aircraft" did FAR more damage to the UK aerospace industry than Labour ever did.
As to it working, how do you know?
WEBF,
Mountbatten had NO influence over the 1960's Labour Govt.
He just went around bad mouthing the TSR-2 when ever he got the chance and did a lot of damage to the campaign to sell it to the Aussies, who went on to order the F-111.
I actually meant the plan to have it destroyed and consigned to oblivion didn't work and that far too much is made of the instruction to destroy prototypes and tooling.
If the Tories had won the Oct 1964 election they would have cancelled it too. The party of Duncan Sandys and "no more manned aircraft" did FAR more damage to the UK aerospace industry than Labour ever did.
As to it working, how do you know?
WEBF,
Mountbatten had NO influence over the 1960's Labour Govt.
He just went around bad mouthing the TSR-2 when ever he got the chance and did a lot of damage to the campaign to sell it to the Aussies, who went on to order the F-111.
WEBF,
Actually there was a huge opportunity here. In 1969 the two principal fixed wing combat aircraft of the FAA were entering service with the RAF; the Buccaneer and the Phantom. Labour had announced the abandonment of fixed wing airpower in 1966 ( a huge mistake in my opinion before anybody starts!) and the Tory opposition was beside itself with rage at the decision. When they were elected to power in 1970 they did NOTHING to reverse this decision. IF the Conservative party had been as good as its word then the potential was huge. Eagle and Ark Royal were in service, as were Hermes and the Commando carriers, Harrier was just joining the RAF along with decent quantities of Buccaneers and Phantoms.
The opportunity was there in 1970 for a joined up cohesive approach to maritime airpower involving both services with the equipment then in service and for a collaborative development of replacement programmes.
They did absolutely diddly squat!
It even took a LABOUR Government to actually order the Sea Harrier in 1975 after years of Tory indecision and refusal to fund the project.
Actually there was a huge opportunity here. In 1969 the two principal fixed wing combat aircraft of the FAA were entering service with the RAF; the Buccaneer and the Phantom. Labour had announced the abandonment of fixed wing airpower in 1966 ( a huge mistake in my opinion before anybody starts!) and the Tory opposition was beside itself with rage at the decision. When they were elected to power in 1970 they did NOTHING to reverse this decision. IF the Conservative party had been as good as its word then the potential was huge. Eagle and Ark Royal were in service, as were Hermes and the Commando carriers, Harrier was just joining the RAF along with decent quantities of Buccaneers and Phantoms.
The opportunity was there in 1970 for a joined up cohesive approach to maritime airpower involving both services with the equipment then in service and for a collaborative development of replacement programmes.
They did absolutely diddly squat!
It even took a LABOUR Government to actually order the Sea Harrier in 1975 after years of Tory indecision and refusal to fund the project.
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Pr00ne,
Funny you should mention it but a form jointery did indeed happen from '69 onwards. 767 sqn RN disbanded and became The training squadron for the RAF and FAA, 1/2 of all the pilots on 892 sqn RN were light blue.
In the book 'Buccaneer' There is a story of FAA buccaneers being handed to the RAF and then being handed back to the FAA to replace losses.
I was told by an ex-WAFU that it wasn't unusual to see gannets flying AEW in place of the Shack's at Lossie.
809 sqn - based at Honington with RAF Buccs.
892 sqn - based at leuchars with RAF Tooms
849 sqn - based at Lossie with shacks as they shared the same RADAR and (I think) engine (but not sure)
All of this makes perfect sense and I dare say a lot more could have been done to make it more efficient, sad that it didn't continue when the FAA got SHAR. I would wager that had this happened the FAA would be sitting pretty with an AD variant of GR7.
Funny you should mention it but a form jointery did indeed happen from '69 onwards. 767 sqn RN disbanded and became The training squadron for the RAF and FAA, 1/2 of all the pilots on 892 sqn RN were light blue.
In the book 'Buccaneer' There is a story of FAA buccaneers being handed to the RAF and then being handed back to the FAA to replace losses.
I was told by an ex-WAFU that it wasn't unusual to see gannets flying AEW in place of the Shack's at Lossie.
809 sqn - based at Honington with RAF Buccs.
892 sqn - based at leuchars with RAF Tooms
849 sqn - based at Lossie with shacks as they shared the same RADAR and (I think) engine (but not sure)
All of this makes perfect sense and I dare say a lot more could have been done to make it more efficient, sad that it didn't continue when the FAA got SHAR. I would wager that had this happened the FAA would be sitting pretty with an AD variant of GR7.
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My late mother-in-law was an un-civil servant at the MoD when it was scrapped. She had to shred the plans and was in tears for the whole time she did it.
If you read Peter wright's "Spycatcher" he claims that Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders to trash the project. The subsequent cancelling of the F111 order fits the bill, too.
If you read Peter wright's "Spycatcher" he claims that Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders to trash the project. The subsequent cancelling of the F111 order fits the bill, too.
Avoid imitations
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>Jigs and tools are expensive, when a project is canned there is no justification in retaining or maintaining them, scrap is the only way of realising any value from them.<
Jigs and tools ARE expensive but only because of the man hours spent in their design and accurate production. The scrap value is tiny in proportion.
Jigs and tools ARE expensive but only because of the man hours spent in their design and accurate production. The scrap value is tiny in proportion.
It might be convenient maskirovka to blame the Yanks for pressuring TSR2 cancellation and scrapping, but it was the loonie lefty Wislon misgovernment which did the deed. And, pr00ne, Mountbottom's meddling interference with something his simpleton's brain couldn't even begin to comprehend most certainly would have influenced the closet commies in power towards the cancellation - on the grounds that, if even the defence chief didn't believe in TSR2, why should anyone else..
Talking of lying Labour politicians, it was very interesting to read the Sunday Times today: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...593607,00.html
Elsewhere in the Sunday Times it states that UK military support for Mad George adventurism was pledged by Tony the Poodle when he went over to lick Dubya's bottom at his ranch in Apr 2002.
If for no other reason than their lies and deceit over Iraq, the wretched spin-ridden Labour government deserves to be soundly kicked out on the 5th!
Talking of lying Labour politicians, it was very interesting to read the Sunday Times today: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...593607,00.html
Elsewhere in the Sunday Times it states that UK military support for Mad George adventurism was pledged by Tony the Poodle when he went over to lick Dubya's bottom at his ranch in Apr 2002.
If for no other reason than their lies and deceit over Iraq, the wretched spin-ridden Labour government deserves to be soundly kicked out on the 5th!
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Pr00ne
I refer to one of your earlier posts
"An option on the F-111K was actually secured before the TSR-2 cancellation was announced."
and a later one
"The option on F-111K was secured so as to not be held to ransom by the US over pricing after TSR-2 cancellation. In the Defence white paper of February 1965 it was openly stated that TSR-2 was going to be reviewed against the F-111 as a potential cheaper and less costly alternative."
As I mentioned earlier, to secure the option before the review sounds to me like the decision had already been made. All this prior to the budget announcement and without discussion with industry and the opposition stinks. Then to cancel the option because of rising F-111 costs, having secured a price is a first order magnitude balls up.
Your even later statement to Pop is extremely naive, I cannot believe that you think this is true:
"They did go on to order the F-111K, surely the decision would have come from Civil servants and not politicians?"
Regards
Retard
I refer to one of your earlier posts
"An option on the F-111K was actually secured before the TSR-2 cancellation was announced."
and a later one
"The option on F-111K was secured so as to not be held to ransom by the US over pricing after TSR-2 cancellation. In the Defence white paper of February 1965 it was openly stated that TSR-2 was going to be reviewed against the F-111 as a potential cheaper and less costly alternative."
As I mentioned earlier, to secure the option before the review sounds to me like the decision had already been made. All this prior to the budget announcement and without discussion with industry and the opposition stinks. Then to cancel the option because of rising F-111 costs, having secured a price is a first order magnitude balls up.
Your even later statement to Pop is extremely naive, I cannot believe that you think this is true:
"They did go on to order the F-111K, surely the decision would have come from Civil servants and not politicians?"
Regards
Retard
At the time of the phones calls Roland Beamont (not Beaumont) had requested that as 200 was ready to fly that they got into air as soon as possible. This was turned down out of hand. All in the space of minutes!
moggiee,
The F-111 order was cancelled in 1968 following devaluation of the pound brought on by the sterling crisis. It was part of a package of cuts in public expenditure of £750m insisted on by the IMF as of conditions for a £1.4b loan. As a nation we were virtually bankrupt in 1968, the economic disaster of 13 years of Tory rule made worse by constant runs on the pound and the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
If Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders don’t you think we would have seen something a little more dramatic and significant than the cancellation of TSR-2 six months after they came to power and F-111K 4 years after? Why would they even have ordered the F-111K if they were Soviet stooges, why continue with the Polaris programme, why stay in NATO, why order Phantoms, Harriers, Nimrods, Hercules, Jaguars etc etc etc? Come on!
Beagle,
Michael Howard was castigating Tony Blair in the House of Commons for not going in to Iraq earlier! Do you really think there would have been a shred of difference of he was in power? He supported and indeed pushed for the war before March 2003, he supported the war during it and he supports the war now, his political opportunism stinks of desperation and a man totally shorn of political ideas or genuine alternatives.
Engineer(retard),
The F-111K option was secured AFTER the review not before or during. It was done for commercial reasons. The F-111K order was cancelled nearly FOUR years later!
The F-111 order was cancelled in 1968 following devaluation of the pound brought on by the sterling crisis. It was part of a package of cuts in public expenditure of £750m insisted on by the IMF as of conditions for a £1.4b loan. As a nation we were virtually bankrupt in 1968, the economic disaster of 13 years of Tory rule made worse by constant runs on the pound and the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
If Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders don’t you think we would have seen something a little more dramatic and significant than the cancellation of TSR-2 six months after they came to power and F-111K 4 years after? Why would they even have ordered the F-111K if they were Soviet stooges, why continue with the Polaris programme, why stay in NATO, why order Phantoms, Harriers, Nimrods, Hercules, Jaguars etc etc etc? Come on!
Beagle,
Michael Howard was castigating Tony Blair in the House of Commons for not going in to Iraq earlier! Do you really think there would have been a shred of difference of he was in power? He supported and indeed pushed for the war before March 2003, he supported the war during it and he supports the war now, his political opportunism stinks of desperation and a man totally shorn of political ideas or genuine alternatives.
Engineer(retard),
The F-111K option was secured AFTER the review not before or during. It was done for commercial reasons. The F-111K order was cancelled nearly FOUR years later!
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I don't see many threads mentioning the fact the RAF kept changing the spec, creating delay and overspend.
The RAF did the same with the Belfast.
It was supposed to carry an "army package"; that was changed to carry a tank.
By the time Shorts had beefed up the floor and moved bits around they could just squeeze in a Ferret Scout car.
That ac did have some success and made a profit after being sold to Air Cargo
The F111 cancellation penalty of £m400 came from the "contingency fund" similar to the one Maggie had for the Falklands.
Where does this contingency fund show up on the books, how much is stashed away in there and is it fed by Greedy Gordon's stealth tax policy?
We should be told!
The RAF did the same with the Belfast.
It was supposed to carry an "army package"; that was changed to carry a tank.
By the time Shorts had beefed up the floor and moved bits around they could just squeeze in a Ferret Scout car.
That ac did have some success and made a profit after being sold to Air Cargo
The F111 cancellation penalty of £m400 came from the "contingency fund" similar to the one Maggie had for the Falklands.
Where does this contingency fund show up on the books, how much is stashed away in there and is it fed by Greedy Gordon's stealth tax policy?
We should be told!
"If Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders don’t you think we would have seen something a little more dramatic and significant than the cancellation of TSR-2 six months after they came to power and F-111K 4 years after? Why would they even have ordered the F-111K if they were Soviet stooges, why continue with the Polaris programme, why stay in NATO, why order Phantoms, Harriers, Nimrods, Hercules, Jaguars etc etc etc? Come on!"
Of those, only TSR2 and F-111K posed a credible threat to the USSR from UK. So, cancel TSR2, then slowly ease out of the F-111K programme.......
A 'dramatic and sudden' move by Wislon and Healey would have been far more obvious and easy to challenge, whereas gradual erosion of the RAF's capability was less so....
And do I trust Howard more than Blair? Most certainly. I'd trust anyone more than Bliar or any of the other Labour slimeballs currently in power.
But will sufficient people show their disfavour of the Labour Liars on Thursday? Somehow I doubt it... But one can but hope!
Of those, only TSR2 and F-111K posed a credible threat to the USSR from UK. So, cancel TSR2, then slowly ease out of the F-111K programme.......
A 'dramatic and sudden' move by Wislon and Healey would have been far more obvious and easy to challenge, whereas gradual erosion of the RAF's capability was less so....
And do I trust Howard more than Blair? Most certainly. I'd trust anyone more than Bliar or any of the other Labour slimeballs currently in power.
But will sufficient people show their disfavour of the Labour Liars on Thursday? Somehow I doubt it... But one can but hope!
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Beags
I think I have a feel for your persuasions
How marvellous would it be if Bliar, Strawman and Greedy G, all lost their seats?
Heaven!!
Here's hoping intelligent voters, with integrity, honesty and trust, can "cross out" this arrogant, deceitful, PC ridden, self seeking bunch of gravy train liars and "cross in" a team who will stand up to EU and salvage what's very little left of this once "Great Britain"
I can only imagine that HM the Queen, without voice, must be thinking to herself, " What on earth is going on, Iv'e no control!"
By the way, yesterday in 1599, commemorated Oliver Cromwell
who did away, at the time, with those "vagabonds and rogues" known as 'Parliament'.
As Scots, Bliar and Prudence should reflect on a famous saying from their Bard, Rabbie Burns
"Ah good Lord, whaht gift yerd gueeus, to see asselves as others seeus !"
I think I have a feel for your persuasions
How marvellous would it be if Bliar, Strawman and Greedy G, all lost their seats?
Heaven!!
Here's hoping intelligent voters, with integrity, honesty and trust, can "cross out" this arrogant, deceitful, PC ridden, self seeking bunch of gravy train liars and "cross in" a team who will stand up to EU and salvage what's very little left of this once "Great Britain"
I can only imagine that HM the Queen, without voice, must be thinking to herself, " What on earth is going on, Iv'e no control!"
By the way, yesterday in 1599, commemorated Oliver Cromwell
who did away, at the time, with those "vagabonds and rogues" known as 'Parliament'.
As Scots, Bliar and Prudence should reflect on a famous saying from their Bard, Rabbie Burns
"Ah good Lord, whaht gift yerd gueeus, to see asselves as others seeus !"
But if the TSR2 had entered service, what would have been the best name for her?.
How about 'Raptor'
Although 'White Elephant' would be best for certain members of the government at the time.
How about 'Raptor'
Although 'White Elephant' would be best for certain members of the government at the time.
Beagle,
So Polaris, Vulcan B2, Victor B2, Blue Steel, RAFG based Canberra B(I)8 followed by Phantom and Buccaneer posed no threat?
You should know damm well that the range of TSR-2 was a Far East requirement and that the RAF in Europe had no requirement for anything other than the V force to reach the USSR and even that vanished when Polaris took over the deterrent.
Buoy 15,
My you inhabit a strange world! Where were you between 1979 and 1997? The same shower who are standing in so called opposition now were in power then, including Howard, I don’t recall there being much in that 18 year period other than what you accuse Labour of today.
People like you who constantly put the UK down hack me off when we stand as the worlds 4th largest economy, with the fastest rate of growth in Europe, the most dynamic economy of any in the G8 and a most successful record of creating a dynamic and tolerant society. The Conservatives also played their part in all of that, when they can do what Labour did in 1983 and recognise that to win and win well they have to move to the centre ground, drop the radical loony ideas and stop inhabiting the territory of the extreme far right, then they will be well prepared to take power again and continue the success story. Howard and his mob are NOT the people to do that.
ZH875,
Claymore was the much rumoured name for TSR-2 if it had gone into service.
So Polaris, Vulcan B2, Victor B2, Blue Steel, RAFG based Canberra B(I)8 followed by Phantom and Buccaneer posed no threat?
You should know damm well that the range of TSR-2 was a Far East requirement and that the RAF in Europe had no requirement for anything other than the V force to reach the USSR and even that vanished when Polaris took over the deterrent.
Buoy 15,
My you inhabit a strange world! Where were you between 1979 and 1997? The same shower who are standing in so called opposition now were in power then, including Howard, I don’t recall there being much in that 18 year period other than what you accuse Labour of today.
People like you who constantly put the UK down hack me off when we stand as the worlds 4th largest economy, with the fastest rate of growth in Europe, the most dynamic economy of any in the G8 and a most successful record of creating a dynamic and tolerant society. The Conservatives also played their part in all of that, when they can do what Labour did in 1983 and recognise that to win and win well they have to move to the centre ground, drop the radical loony ideas and stop inhabiting the territory of the extreme far right, then they will be well prepared to take power again and continue the success story. Howard and his mob are NOT the people to do that.
ZH875,
Claymore was the much rumoured name for TSR-2 if it had gone into service.
If I may refer my learned colleague to my previous post, I did in fact state 'from the UK', inter alia. The other platforms to which he refers were all considered obsolescent at the time Wislon and his fellow travellers murdered the TSR2.
F4 and Buccaneer would not have been a threat to the Rodina Sovietski from the UK, unless a one-way mission was considered. Neither carried a stand-off weapon, so a toss attack with a bucket of sunshine followed by a meaningful chat wih St Peter would have been the best they could have achieved...
As for a name for the magnificent TSR2 , I would have suggested Vickers Vengeant.
An historical note; when the 50p piece first came into circulation in 1969 replacing the ten bob note, it was known as the 'Wilson'. Because it was two-faced, many sided and everyone hated it... The current one is known as a 'Blair' because, without anyone noticing, it pretends to look the same but has reduced in substance.....
For F*ck's sake, team, get off your ar$es and kick this bunch of Labour tossers out on Thursday!
F4 and Buccaneer would not have been a threat to the Rodina Sovietski from the UK, unless a one-way mission was considered. Neither carried a stand-off weapon, so a toss attack with a bucket of sunshine followed by a meaningful chat wih St Peter would have been the best they could have achieved...
As for a name for the magnificent TSR2 , I would have suggested Vickers Vengeant.
An historical note; when the 50p piece first came into circulation in 1969 replacing the ten bob note, it was known as the 'Wilson'. Because it was two-faced, many sided and everyone hated it... The current one is known as a 'Blair' because, without anyone noticing, it pretends to look the same but has reduced in substance.....
For F*ck's sake, team, get off your ar$es and kick this bunch of Labour tossers out on Thursday!
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Gannet and Shack had same radar - literally! The American AN/APS 20 radar was out of the Avenger into the Gannet. When the Gannets were scrapped, the radars were salvaged and fitted to the Shacks to fill the AEW gap caused by the demise of the Nimwacs and before the E3D.
Shack had piston Griffins and the Gannet the turboprop Double Mamba - totally different engines and powerplant to prop chain.
Shack had piston Griffins and the Gannet the turboprop Double Mamba - totally different engines and powerplant to prop chain.