Tsr2
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Coincidentally, this link to a German website appeared on another forum earlier this week: Planes Pictures.
The site contains some wonderful "what-if" artists impressions of the TSR2, including:
Full-size images available via the website.
I/C
The site contains some wonderful "what-if" artists impressions of the TSR2, including:
Full-size images available via the website.
I/C
I saw 222 down at Duxford and it is an impressive looking machine - well worth a visit when it is restored. My real reason for going, though, was to see the SR-71 blackbird they have there. In 1964, as the TSR2 was being cancelled, A-12 blackbirds were already being flown by the CIA and the SR-71 was nearly finished. An interceptor version was built, but never went into production.
Built from titanium and flying at Mach 3.2+, not THAT was an aircraft!
But then, they had Kelly Johnson and we didn't.
Built from titanium and flying at Mach 3.2+, not THAT was an aircraft!
But then, they had Kelly Johnson and we didn't.
Ah, that old beast of myth and legend the TSR-2!
Folk need to remove rose tinted spectacles, acquire some historical perspective, dispose of a whole load of political baggage and misinformation before they can truly appreciate the truth behind the TSR-2 and its cancellation.
The aeroplane was designed as a nuclear strike platform pure and simple in the days of the nuclear trip wire and massive nuclear retaliation. It had to have a supersonic over the target capability at high level and its long range requirement was due to Britains commitments in the Far East.
All this and an advanced radar and navigation/attack system made the design hugely complex. Add to this its appearance as a requirement at the time of Duncan Sandys twin hammer blows of no more manned combat aircraft ( the Lightning and the TSR-2 requirement were the only two to survive the 1957 White paper) and the desire to rationalise the UK aircraft industry and the recipe for disaster was set. The thing was a committee design, it was the only complex design left so everyone in the various Ministries involved wanted a piece of the pie. It was a compromise design from two companies, English Electric and Vickers who had to merge to form BAC to even get the contract, stories abound of meetings of 30 people to decide upon the position of a cockpit switch, not one of the 30 being a pilot or design engineer!
By the time it flew it had been overtaken by events, NATO had dropped the trip wire policy of massive nuclear retaliation and the UK had announced plans to withdraw from the Far East.
What was now required was a more flexible platform capable of carrying a good payload of conventional weapons from semi prepared strips, that was NOT TSR-2.
Costs were spiralling massively out of control and the technology was proving problematical and difficult to make work.
Apart from all of these problems it was cost that killed the project. The in power Conservative Government was already considering cancellation, as was the Chiefs of Staff committee before the 1964 General Election. Labour were returned and took over a broken backed economy with a huge balance of payments deficit, a massive sterling crisis and constant runs on the pound.
All public expenditure was reduced and defence took its share, the hopelessly impractical P1154 and HS681 were cancelled in a Defence White paper but TSR-2 was not, though it was looking increasingly unaffordable for a buy of even just 50 Wilson and Healey tried to keep it going.
Another run on the pound and worse than expected monetary figures forced their hand and TSR-2 was cancelled in the 1965 budget speech to parliament.
There was no conspiracy, there was no hidden agenda, the economy was in a mess, requirements were changing, the world was changing.
There WERE those in the new Labour Government who were bitterly opposed to the TSR-2, the Principal Scientific Advisor to the Prime Minister being the most vocal and committed, but it was killed by finances (following 13 years of Tory rule!) and the dire state of the UK economy. Its eventual planned replacement the F-111K was also eventually cancelled following the devaluation of the pound and a deepening of the economic woes the UK faced.
This led to Buccaneer being adopted for the RAF and was eventually followed by Tornado after a few false starts with things like AFVG and UKVG. Would we have been any better off if TSR-2 had survived? I doubt it. There would have been no European collaboration, no Tornado and a huge production gap in the industry.
Folk need to remove rose tinted spectacles, acquire some historical perspective, dispose of a whole load of political baggage and misinformation before they can truly appreciate the truth behind the TSR-2 and its cancellation.
The aeroplane was designed as a nuclear strike platform pure and simple in the days of the nuclear trip wire and massive nuclear retaliation. It had to have a supersonic over the target capability at high level and its long range requirement was due to Britains commitments in the Far East.
All this and an advanced radar and navigation/attack system made the design hugely complex. Add to this its appearance as a requirement at the time of Duncan Sandys twin hammer blows of no more manned combat aircraft ( the Lightning and the TSR-2 requirement were the only two to survive the 1957 White paper) and the desire to rationalise the UK aircraft industry and the recipe for disaster was set. The thing was a committee design, it was the only complex design left so everyone in the various Ministries involved wanted a piece of the pie. It was a compromise design from two companies, English Electric and Vickers who had to merge to form BAC to even get the contract, stories abound of meetings of 30 people to decide upon the position of a cockpit switch, not one of the 30 being a pilot or design engineer!
By the time it flew it had been overtaken by events, NATO had dropped the trip wire policy of massive nuclear retaliation and the UK had announced plans to withdraw from the Far East.
What was now required was a more flexible platform capable of carrying a good payload of conventional weapons from semi prepared strips, that was NOT TSR-2.
Costs were spiralling massively out of control and the technology was proving problematical and difficult to make work.
Apart from all of these problems it was cost that killed the project. The in power Conservative Government was already considering cancellation, as was the Chiefs of Staff committee before the 1964 General Election. Labour were returned and took over a broken backed economy with a huge balance of payments deficit, a massive sterling crisis and constant runs on the pound.
All public expenditure was reduced and defence took its share, the hopelessly impractical P1154 and HS681 were cancelled in a Defence White paper but TSR-2 was not, though it was looking increasingly unaffordable for a buy of even just 50 Wilson and Healey tried to keep it going.
Another run on the pound and worse than expected monetary figures forced their hand and TSR-2 was cancelled in the 1965 budget speech to parliament.
There was no conspiracy, there was no hidden agenda, the economy was in a mess, requirements were changing, the world was changing.
There WERE those in the new Labour Government who were bitterly opposed to the TSR-2, the Principal Scientific Advisor to the Prime Minister being the most vocal and committed, but it was killed by finances (following 13 years of Tory rule!) and the dire state of the UK economy. Its eventual planned replacement the F-111K was also eventually cancelled following the devaluation of the pound and a deepening of the economic woes the UK faced.
This led to Buccaneer being adopted for the RAF and was eventually followed by Tornado after a few false starts with things like AFVG and UKVG. Would we have been any better off if TSR-2 had survived? I doubt it. There would have been no European collaboration, no Tornado and a huge production gap in the industry.
Pr00ne,
You are talking utter crap.
Oh - and by the way, Bliar OUT!
You may not know it makes sense, but everyone else does!
You are talking utter crap.
Oh - and by the way, Bliar OUT!
You may not know it makes sense, but everyone else does!
BEagle,
Tough pal, thats how it happened.
Tough pal, thats how it happened.
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Proone
I am not sure you are right on the cancellation of the TSR2. My recollection is that it was done for within a couple of weeks of the election success. It had been mooted by Wilson during the campaign.
Now I recognise that I was a mere youth (Vulcan co-pilot) with no real interest in politics at the time but I had a real interest in flying the aircraft so I am fairly sure that it happened very quickly. We had suffered weeks of disruption moving the entire station at Coningsby to Cottesmore and the chop happened very shortly after we had moved - November 1964.
ACW
I am not sure you are right on the cancellation of the TSR2. My recollection is that it was done for within a couple of weeks of the election success. It had been mooted by Wilson during the campaign.
Now I recognise that I was a mere youth (Vulcan co-pilot) with no real interest in politics at the time but I had a real interest in flying the aircraft so I am fairly sure that it happened very quickly. We had suffered weeks of disruption moving the entire station at Coningsby to Cottesmore and the chop happened very shortly after we had moved - November 1964.
ACW
ACW418
No, sorry.
Labour were elected on 15th October 1964. The first Labour budget was on 1st November 1964.
The Defence White paper of February 1965 announced the cancellation of the P1154 and the HS681.
In the 2nd Labour Budget on 6th April 1965 the cancellation of TSR-2 was announced.
No, sorry.
Labour were elected on 15th October 1964. The first Labour budget was on 1st November 1964.
The Defence White paper of February 1965 announced the cancellation of the P1154 and the HS681.
In the 2nd Labour Budget on 6th April 1965 the cancellation of TSR-2 was announced.
BEagle,
Of course it did, I mean, with the UK Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the pay of the KGB the USSR had such an advantage did it not?
So why the hell are we still here and the USSR long gone?
Absolute poppycock!
Of course it did, I mean, with the UK Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the pay of the KGB the USSR had such an advantage did it not?
So why the hell are we still here and the USSR long gone?
Absolute poppycock!
OLD RED DAMASK
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I like Madame B also remember it flying over my school one break time with a Lightning either side as escort.(Claremont Sec Mod BTW).Never forget how even the most notorious hooligans in the school looked up.
Living in Blackpool as a kid in the '60's had some benefits!!With Warton down the road and the Irish sea as a test place plenty of interesting things were seen during my teens.
IMHO it was a great plane and when/if the whole truth about the cancellation comes out it will at last be vindicated.
Living in Blackpool as a kid in the '60's had some benefits!!With Warton down the road and the Irish sea as a test place plenty of interesting things were seen during my teens.
IMHO it was a great plane and when/if the whole truth about the cancellation comes out it will at last be vindicated.
BEagle,
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
If you must use quotes from Hamlet, at least try and get the Bards words right!
lasernigel,
WHAT will be vindicated?
The truth is all out there, all open source and in the public domain, just a shame it doesen\'t fit every conspiracy theory and schoolboys memory.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
If you must use quotes from Hamlet, at least try and get the Bards words right!
lasernigel,
WHAT will be vindicated?
The truth is all out there, all open source and in the public domain, just a shame it doesen\'t fit every conspiracy theory and schoolboys memory.
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Here is some of the open domain stuff with a link and selected cuttings. First time I've agreed with pr00ne - the truth is out there but it depends on where you look and what you want to believe. I prefer this version to his one.
http://www.pilotfriend.com/general_i...craft/TSR2.htm
The then-Conservative government was in serious trouble; a general election was looming for the end of the year and Labour were widely expected to win. Obviously BAC hoped that presenting the new government with a flying prototype would put some firmer foundations under the troubled project.
The second prototype would never fly; the government, in the Budget Day announcement on the 6th of April 1965, announced that the TSR.2 programme was to be terminated immediately.
While the management of BAC were informed before the budget speech was made, they were forbidden to tell their employees, who then had to hear the news on the radio. The House of Commons was in uproar over the cancellation; but no debate could take place during the budget speech so not only had the government treated BAC's workforce with contempt, they had tried to slip a major defence project cancellation past the opposition.
A debate one week later in the house was a rough ride for Dennis Healey (the new Defence Minister), who tried to justify the cancellation on the basis that the F-111 could be bought more cheaply, though he could not state a cost or exact timescale for the buy.
Healey has since stated that getting American backing for an International Monetary Fund loan was not a reason behind the British order for the F-111 instead of continuing the TSR.2 programme. However, the TSR.2 was certainly a serious worry to the Americans, being vastly more capable than the F-111 and could have made a serious dent in the F-111's export prospects. A denial from a politician, as the TSR.2 programme showed on numerous individual occasions, is not worth the paper they refuse to write it on.
http://www.pilotfriend.com/general_i...craft/TSR2.htm
The then-Conservative government was in serious trouble; a general election was looming for the end of the year and Labour were widely expected to win. Obviously BAC hoped that presenting the new government with a flying prototype would put some firmer foundations under the troubled project.
The second prototype would never fly; the government, in the Budget Day announcement on the 6th of April 1965, announced that the TSR.2 programme was to be terminated immediately.
While the management of BAC were informed before the budget speech was made, they were forbidden to tell their employees, who then had to hear the news on the radio. The House of Commons was in uproar over the cancellation; but no debate could take place during the budget speech so not only had the government treated BAC's workforce with contempt, they had tried to slip a major defence project cancellation past the opposition.
A debate one week later in the house was a rough ride for Dennis Healey (the new Defence Minister), who tried to justify the cancellation on the basis that the F-111 could be bought more cheaply, though he could not state a cost or exact timescale for the buy.
Healey has since stated that getting American backing for an International Monetary Fund loan was not a reason behind the British order for the F-111 instead of continuing the TSR.2 programme. However, the TSR.2 was certainly a serious worry to the Americans, being vastly more capable than the F-111 and could have made a serious dent in the F-111's export prospects. A denial from a politician, as the TSR.2 programme showed on numerous individual occasions, is not worth the paper they refuse to write it on.
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Did anyone ever find out why that card carrying Commie tw*t Wilson suddenly resigned overnight without a sniff of media interest?
30 year rule, FOI etc, - I think we should be told !!
30 year rule, FOI etc, - I think we should be told !!
engineer(retard),
WHAT F-111 export prospects? The RAF cancelled their order for 50 when devaluation was forced on the Govt and the Aussies only ordered a mere 24 after Mountbatten effectively sabotaged the prospects of TSR-2 to the Australian Govt.
I doubt the TSR-2 gave the US a worry for a second!
WHAT F-111 export prospects? The RAF cancelled their order for 50 when devaluation was forced on the Govt and the Aussies only ordered a mere 24 after Mountbatten effectively sabotaged the prospects of TSR-2 to the Australian Govt.
I doubt the TSR-2 gave the US a worry for a second!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Buoy 15, I was flying with a junior Navy Minister on a Cod War sortie when Derek Murgatroyd loged the radio announcement. The minister looked as if he had been punched and retired to the galley to ponder his future.
I heard that Wilson resigned because of illness. I think he had been told he was suffering from senil dementia and decided to jump before the news got out. Just like Blair didn't.
I heard that Wilson resigned because of illness. I think he had been told he was suffering from senil dementia and decided to jump before the news got out. Just like Blair didn't.
buoy15,
Harold Wilson resigned 5 days after his 60th birthday in 1976, a date he had decided on during 1974. He was an exhaustd and very ill man, he had beeen diagnosed as suffering from cancer of the colon.
No media interest? Get back in your box where you belong, it was headline news and interrupted programmes with a newsflash on all then TV channels there were. It was the biggest story for months.
Harold Wilson resigned 5 days after his 60th birthday in 1976, a date he had decided on during 1974. He was an exhaustd and very ill man, he had beeen diagnosed as suffering from cancer of the colon.
No media interest? Get back in your box where you belong, it was headline news and interrupted programmes with a newsflash on all then TV channels there were. It was the biggest story for months.
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pr00ne
I have not been able to find any open source material to substantiate your claim about devaluation. But since we're on open source, I found this:
After the cancellation of the BAC TSR2 in 1965 the RAF was left without an adequate Canberra replacement, and plans to buy the American F111 were quickly dropped after a detailed examination of the aircraft.
I do not believe everything I read and that comment was unreferenced.
However, from "The Management of Projects" by Peter W G Morris:
A strategic bomber version of the F1-11 was developed from 1964 (the FB-111A) going into production in 1968. Flyaway costs rose dramatically, largely because of development difficulties with the engines and avionics, cost overruns on the bomber being particualrly severe.
So the US starts development of a bomber in 64, the UK cancels its own in 65, the replacement comes in over budget in 68 and the UK cancels that order. What do you read into that?
Regards
Retard
I have not been able to find any open source material to substantiate your claim about devaluation. But since we're on open source, I found this:
After the cancellation of the BAC TSR2 in 1965 the RAF was left without an adequate Canberra replacement, and plans to buy the American F111 were quickly dropped after a detailed examination of the aircraft.
I do not believe everything I read and that comment was unreferenced.
However, from "The Management of Projects" by Peter W G Morris:
A strategic bomber version of the F1-11 was developed from 1964 (the FB-111A) going into production in 1968. Flyaway costs rose dramatically, largely because of development difficulties with the engines and avionics, cost overruns on the bomber being particualrly severe.
So the US starts development of a bomber in 64, the UK cancels its own in 65, the replacement comes in over budget in 68 and the UK cancels that order. What do you read into that?
Regards
Retard
So you're a lady, are you?
Surprised you've got so much time off from canvassing for that tit Bliar and his lying cohorts to send so much time on PPRuNe, proone....
Surprised you've got so much time off from canvassing for that tit Bliar and his lying cohorts to send so much time on PPRuNe, proone....