You are Tony B Liar.
That would of course be the Bank of England's lowest rates!!! Rates which we had when this bunch of smear and spin merchants came to power!!! 
History! It's a marvellous thing, but they probably didn't cover that at school did they WOPTB. These lowest set of interest rates were started by the previous bunch. Rates may have gone up to 15% on Black Monday (wouldn't ever have happened if we hadn't joined the ERM) but they also came down again fairly rapidly thereafter.
Also from the papers came the quote "probably the best thing that happened to this country" to be thrown out of the ERM. It started the longest period of sustained growth since the industrial revolution. So this lot carried on many of the policies of the last lot and Hey Presto good Liabour management of the economy!
News this morning 111 new Quangos under Liabour! How many civil serpents do that lot employ?
History! It's a marvellous thing, but they probably didn't cover that at school did they WOPTB. These lowest set of interest rates were started by the previous bunch. Rates may have gone up to 15% on Black Monday (wouldn't ever have happened if we hadn't joined the ERM) but they also came down again fairly rapidly thereafter.Also from the papers came the quote "probably the best thing that happened to this country" to be thrown out of the ERM. It started the longest period of sustained growth since the industrial revolution. So this lot carried on many of the policies of the last lot and Hey Presto good Liabour management of the economy!
News this morning 111 new Quangos under Liabour! How many civil serpents do that lot employ?
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 11th Feb 2005 at 08:15.
Must admit i had'nt noticed an economic freefall or massive rate rises since they came to power what would you put that down to?. What is it the usual "it was all the world economy doing it's thing?" or possibly economic savants?
Precisely. The last lot got the rates back down (lower than they are now) and started the period of growth. When was Black Monday? Early 90s? At least 5 years before Liabour came to power? We have had some 15 years of sustained growth, reducing unemployment (unless of course you include all those on incapacity benefit (spongers)). But we are all going to face large increases in tax if this lot are voted back into power. Even the accountants that use the Treasury model think there is a massive black hole looming. Vote this lot in again your peril!
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Hyd3 - how can you support pr00ne's distortions? As WE Branch says I was talking about the 90s cuts, (a) because I was a kid in the early 80s and cannot really be expected to have an accurate opinion and (b) the potentially damaging cuts did not happen - or is INVINCIBLE actually being secretly run by the RAN to whom it was due to be sold? Were FEARLESS and INTREPID not actually at sea 10 years and more after the Nott review?
How can you say that the Tories were sleazy and misgoverned then support the blatant corruption shown by this government, that sold policy for £1 milllion a time, and had many other scandals, each worse than any of the Tory misdemeanor that were mostly blown out of all proportion by the press? Most of the Labour corruption has been in high office, compared to backbenchers alleged (only by a known liar, Fayed, in one case) to have been paid to ask a question? How ignorant do you have to be to imagine that to be as bad as the purchase of government ministers?
How many people do you know who lost money to the man that bought Mandleson who should have been investigating his company? The same man that used funds from a public limited company to entertain top Labour personnel, including Blair, and buy his way into office he was never voted into. Money that the company needed, as the shares dropped to become worthless (my Father gave his away, so as to register a loss for tax).
As for misgovernment, the trampling over the UK constitution by Labour is actually what misgovernment means, try to get your terminology right. In terms of governing badly they could teach anyone some tricks. The only decent things they have done are (a) follow Tory economic policy for a few years (b) decide not to govern in the case of the Bank of England. Nearly everything they have decided on has been poorly-judged, often startlingly so and either immensely stupid or disgustingly political - such as buying votes with benefits and public-sector jobs.
woptb
Do you actually know what happened around "Black Wednesday"? That the day itself set up our current prosperity? That the cause, the ERM, was a policy that only the Conservatives were reluctant to support? That it was almost forced on Major in the end? That leaving was probably delayed partly by Labour support for the ERM (remember Europe was an issue on which Major had to tread very carefully, and tried to get cross-party support having insufficient majority to apply policy that split his party without it)? That the Euro is currently causing serious economic problems across Europe for the same reasons the ERM did in the UK, the Euro only opposed by the Tories of the major parties? The only thing you seem to understand is that the world economy has more effect than any government can.
How can you say that the Tories were sleazy and misgoverned then support the blatant corruption shown by this government, that sold policy for £1 milllion a time, and had many other scandals, each worse than any of the Tory misdemeanor that were mostly blown out of all proportion by the press? Most of the Labour corruption has been in high office, compared to backbenchers alleged (only by a known liar, Fayed, in one case) to have been paid to ask a question? How ignorant do you have to be to imagine that to be as bad as the purchase of government ministers?
How many people do you know who lost money to the man that bought Mandleson who should have been investigating his company? The same man that used funds from a public limited company to entertain top Labour personnel, including Blair, and buy his way into office he was never voted into. Money that the company needed, as the shares dropped to become worthless (my Father gave his away, so as to register a loss for tax).
As for misgovernment, the trampling over the UK constitution by Labour is actually what misgovernment means, try to get your terminology right. In terms of governing badly they could teach anyone some tricks. The only decent things they have done are (a) follow Tory economic policy for a few years (b) decide not to govern in the case of the Bank of England. Nearly everything they have decided on has been poorly-judged, often startlingly so and either immensely stupid or disgustingly political - such as buying votes with benefits and public-sector jobs.
woptb
Do you actually know what happened around "Black Wednesday"? That the day itself set up our current prosperity? That the cause, the ERM, was a policy that only the Conservatives were reluctant to support? That it was almost forced on Major in the end? That leaving was probably delayed partly by Labour support for the ERM (remember Europe was an issue on which Major had to tread very carefully, and tried to get cross-party support having insufficient majority to apply policy that split his party without it)? That the Euro is currently causing serious economic problems across Europe for the same reasons the ERM did in the UK, the Euro only opposed by the Tories of the major parties? The only thing you seem to understand is that the world economy has more effect than any government can.
I have a reasonable grasp of the events of "Black Wednesday" & strangely pre & post also!
Black Wednesday was just the cherry on the icing, it was Lamonts,Major's & needless to say the Torys defining failure.
There was already a recession at the begining of the 90's, the Black Wednesday fiasco just added to it.
Rather than laying any great economic foundation the event only served to line the pockets of speculators like George Soros (incidentally a Tory party 'donor'). Majors policys were the weakling 'Bastard children' of 80's Thatcherism . If you don't remember the 80's that was when Mrs T was dismantling the social fabric of the UK . Talking of taxation, remember the poll tax ? By the way Mrs Thatcher wrote the book on non concensual governance. Pergau Dam, Westlands - scandal shmandel!
Black Wednesday was just the cherry on the icing, it was Lamonts,Major's & needless to say the Torys defining failure.
There was already a recession at the begining of the 90's, the Black Wednesday fiasco just added to it.
Rather than laying any great economic foundation the event only served to line the pockets of speculators like George Soros (incidentally a Tory party 'donor'). Majors policys were the weakling 'Bastard children' of 80's Thatcherism . If you don't remember the 80's that was when Mrs T was dismantling the social fabric of the UK . Talking of taxation, remember the poll tax ? By the way Mrs Thatcher wrote the book on non concensual governance. Pergau Dam, Westlands - scandal shmandel!
Last edited by woptb; 11th Feb 2005 at 15:53.
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woptb
Remeber the poll tax? Sure do, and a bXXXXy sight fairer than the present system, IMHO.
Now I'm no great fan of either of the two major parties (Liberal - Haah!), but, like most Labour spinners, you spout a wonderfully distorted version of the UK economy pre-1997. Digest Send Clown's last paragraph in his last post - it's historically accurate.
Remeber the poll tax? Sure do, and a bXXXXy sight fairer than the present system, IMHO.
Now I'm no great fan of either of the two major parties (Liberal - Haah!), but, like most Labour spinners, you spout a wonderfully distorted version of the UK economy pre-1997. Digest Send Clown's last paragraph in his last post - it's historically accurate.
Roland Pulfrew,
I am afraid you are WRONG! So so wrong. You claim;
“Rates which we had when this bunch of smear and spin merchants came to power!!!”
In actual fact when Labour came to power interest rates were 6.5%. To find a time when Tory economic management matched the current low of 3.75% of Feb 2003 you have to go all the way back to 27th January 1955 when rates reached a low of 3.5%
The peak of Black Wednesday also took over 4 years to subside to something approaching what it had been before. Many businesses went to the wall in that time.
So Roland, to claim that “the last lot got the rates back down (lower than they are now)" is simply factually and historically wrong.
Would the Tory party EVER have given the Bank of England it's independence? I doubt it.
Send Clowns.
You make a fair point about some of the cuts not happening, but of course that was purely down to the Argentine invasion of the Falklands, NOT Tory defence policy. ALL of the other damaging cuts to Air Defence capability, war reserve stocks, training flying hours and fuel allocations most certainly DID happen, as I said, right at the heart of the Cold war.
I am afraid you are WRONG! So so wrong. You claim;
“Rates which we had when this bunch of smear and spin merchants came to power!!!”
In actual fact when Labour came to power interest rates were 6.5%. To find a time when Tory economic management matched the current low of 3.75% of Feb 2003 you have to go all the way back to 27th January 1955 when rates reached a low of 3.5%
The peak of Black Wednesday also took over 4 years to subside to something approaching what it had been before. Many businesses went to the wall in that time.
So Roland, to claim that “the last lot got the rates back down (lower than they are now)" is simply factually and historically wrong.
Would the Tory party EVER have given the Bank of England it's independence? I doubt it.
Send Clowns.
You make a fair point about some of the cuts not happening, but of course that was purely down to the Argentine invasion of the Falklands, NOT Tory defence policy. ALL of the other damaging cuts to Air Defence capability, war reserve stocks, training flying hours and fuel allocations most certainly DID happen, as I said, right at the heart of the Cold war.
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Think how many more helicopters or hospitals or prisons we could have had had they not built the Millenium Dome. Nice use of cash, still utilised to this day, a crowning British achievement in the eyes of the world ........ not.
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prOOne
Sorry old chap - 'tis YOU that is so , so WRONG. I'd PM you with actual facts to avoid boring other posters - but I simply can't be ar**ed at this time of a night.
Sorry old chap - 'tis YOU that is so , so WRONG. I'd PM you with actual facts to avoid boring other posters - but I simply can't be ar**ed at this time of a night.
jindabyne,
The facts I quoted ARE the facts!
The facts I quoted ARE the facts!
Prune
I stand corrected (if they are the facts)! However, if the previous bunch had not taken the action they did we would probably still be the "sick man of Europe". By doing what they did many lame ducks did go to the wall, but it did start the longest period of sustained growth this country has had. (I see you do not dispute that). It started with the last bunch and has continued to date. We are now one of the strongest economies in the world and that would not have been achieved without the last lots apparent "mismanagement". If it hadn't been for Thatcherism the unions would still be running this country. By defeating the unions the last lot created the base for economic growth. Sadly it was too late for many companies as the damage had been done. Lets not forget the Friday cars built by Red Robbo and his mates which probably finished MG Rover (BL) for ever.
I stand corrected (if they are the facts)! However, if the previous bunch had not taken the action they did we would probably still be the "sick man of Europe". By doing what they did many lame ducks did go to the wall, but it did start the longest period of sustained growth this country has had. (I see you do not dispute that). It started with the last bunch and has continued to date. We are now one of the strongest economies in the world and that would not have been achieved without the last lots apparent "mismanagement". If it hadn't been for Thatcherism the unions would still be running this country. By defeating the unions the last lot created the base for economic growth. Sadly it was too late for many companies as the damage had been done. Lets not forget the Friday cars built by Red Robbo and his mates which probably finished MG Rover (BL) for ever.
Lets not forget the superb 'world beating ' management of the time,the superbly designed modernistic products & the decades of reinvestment! Oh yes ! they led the way! British management,best in the world!
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Not to mention the Looney Left that still lurks within New Labour!
The Mayor of London has recently been showing his true colours by abusing a Jewish journalist by describing him to his face as typical of a Concentration Camp Commander! Tactful, what?
Heard the tape yesterday on PM on Radio 4 - definitely him (unmistakable voice!). Red Ken is alive and well.
So let's not have any defence of this kind of fascist outburst from New Labour members on PPRuNe, please!
The Mayor of London has recently been showing his true colours by abusing a Jewish journalist by describing him to his face as typical of a Concentration Camp Commander! Tactful, what?
Heard the tape yesterday on PM on Radio 4 - definitely him (unmistakable voice!). Red Ken is alive and well.
So let's not have any defence of this kind of fascist outburst from New Labour members on PPRuNe, please!
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Hyd3,woptb,Proone et all the other New Labour Leftie Looney Luvvies show a remarkably selective grasp of UK political history.
I want to know where the Millbank get their 'Dirty Tricks' department. Are they ex-BA? I mean 'releasing' selected parts of the run up to Black Wednesday just as the posturing for an upcoming General Election. Did anyone see the positively negative response to the "Chat to a Cabinet Member" phone in?
Nobody wanted to talk to the slime. Hilarious.
But to all the other Ppruners of the common sense variety the wheels are, at last, starting to come off the caravans of the Bliar & Brown Travelling Circus. Don't worry, everybody, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. The only thing that worries me about the Tory's policing policy is putting the 'Met in the hands of the Lord Mayor of London...Red Ken!!!
I want to know where the Millbank get their 'Dirty Tricks' department. Are they ex-BA? I mean 'releasing' selected parts of the run up to Black Wednesday just as the posturing for an upcoming General Election. Did anyone see the positively negative response to the "Chat to a Cabinet Member" phone in?
Nobody wanted to talk to the slime. Hilarious.
But to all the other Ppruners of the common sense variety the wheels are, at last, starting to come off the caravans of the Bliar & Brown Travelling Circus. Don't worry, everybody, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible. The only thing that worries me about the Tory's policing policy is putting the 'Met in the hands of the Lord Mayor of London...Red Ken!!!
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May I suggest that the reason why many Britons can't be bothered to vote is because in the electorate's mind, all politicians are alike and can't be trusted.
In a 1998 Research Paper, the Parliamentary Library in Canberra noted that a recurring issue in the Australian Parliament, the press and in the community was the standard of parliamentarians’ conduct.
The Paper noted that public attitudes to parliamentarians’ behaviour, as shown in a 1998 opinion poll, were that only 7% of Australians believed that parliamentarians were of high or very high standards of honesty and ethics. The only profession rating lower than parliamentarians was car salesmen, at 2%. The Paper concluded that trust in parliamentarians was at an all time low.
Parliamentarians’ unethical behaviour, both perceived and actual, induces citizens to believe that the system is incapable of operating in a way that protects and promotes the public interest. The present system is seen by many as being merely self-serving.
The issue facing ALL politicians is how the challenge of actual and perceived unethical behaviour and the consequent growing cynicism about the system of government ought to be met.
Public office holders are trustees for the public interest. Being a trustee creates a duty that those elected to public office will act only in the people’s interest. Unethical behaviour matters because it involves breaking that trust in not acting in accordance with certain principles that all the community shares.
The message is clear - ALL politicians must lift their game.
In a 1998 Research Paper, the Parliamentary Library in Canberra noted that a recurring issue in the Australian Parliament, the press and in the community was the standard of parliamentarians’ conduct.
The Paper noted that public attitudes to parliamentarians’ behaviour, as shown in a 1998 opinion poll, were that only 7% of Australians believed that parliamentarians were of high or very high standards of honesty and ethics. The only profession rating lower than parliamentarians was car salesmen, at 2%. The Paper concluded that trust in parliamentarians was at an all time low.
Parliamentarians’ unethical behaviour, both perceived and actual, induces citizens to believe that the system is incapable of operating in a way that protects and promotes the public interest. The present system is seen by many as being merely self-serving.
The issue facing ALL politicians is how the challenge of actual and perceived unethical behaviour and the consequent growing cynicism about the system of government ought to be met.
Public office holders are trustees for the public interest. Being a trustee creates a duty that those elected to public office will act only in the people’s interest. Unethical behaviour matters because it involves breaking that trust in not acting in accordance with certain principles that all the community shares.
The message is clear - ALL politicians must lift their game.
Argus,
A neat post, hard to argue against from any particular political stance
Pontious,
New Labour Leftie Looney Luvvies? Try and be a little more original. There is nothing particularly left wing about this Gov’t, but there’s an awful lot of radical ridiculous right wing extremism in the other lot!
As to normal service being resumed, Look out Public services and any Public spending, remember what they did to the Defence medical services and the MQ estate, wonder what will take a hit this time?
A neat post, hard to argue against from any particular political stance
Pontious,
New Labour Leftie Looney Luvvies? Try and be a little more original. There is nothing particularly left wing about this Gov’t, but there’s an awful lot of radical ridiculous right wing extremism in the other lot!
As to normal service being resumed, Look out Public services and any Public spending, remember what they did to the Defence medical services and the MQ estate, wonder what will take a hit this time?
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prOOne
Thank you.
It’s not so much a "pox on both their houses". It’s more to do with getting some new blood, ideas and values into politics, and hopefully restoring some modicum of confidence in our elected representatives.
What irks me is that, at a time when the public perception of politicians is at an all time low, both major parties, at least here in Oz, continue to select potential MPs from the ranks of timeservers, party/union hacks, and generally those who have only ever suckled shamelessly on the public mammaries. Individuals with talent, verve, integrity, real world experience and selflessness need not apply.
I've seen nothing to suggest that either the UK Labour or Tory Party operates differently to their Antipodean equivalents.
To get some enlivenment, I'd like to see a two term limit on politicians in all houses of parliament. And similarly, I'd look to limit the tenure of all senior public/civil servants to that of the Minister they serve. Notwithstanding the protestations of the latter day 'Sir Humphreys', the days of an independent bureaucracy and 'frank and fearless' advice have long since gone.
Thank you.
It’s not so much a "pox on both their houses". It’s more to do with getting some new blood, ideas and values into politics, and hopefully restoring some modicum of confidence in our elected representatives.
What irks me is that, at a time when the public perception of politicians is at an all time low, both major parties, at least here in Oz, continue to select potential MPs from the ranks of timeservers, party/union hacks, and generally those who have only ever suckled shamelessly on the public mammaries. Individuals with talent, verve, integrity, real world experience and selflessness need not apply.
I've seen nothing to suggest that either the UK Labour or Tory Party operates differently to their Antipodean equivalents.
To get some enlivenment, I'd like to see a two term limit on politicians in all houses of parliament. And similarly, I'd look to limit the tenure of all senior public/civil servants to that of the Minister they serve. Notwithstanding the protestations of the latter day 'Sir Humphreys', the days of an independent bureaucracy and 'frank and fearless' advice have long since gone.
Last edited by Argus; 14th Feb 2005 at 06:07.