The other E.E. classic, the Canberra. (Merged 23rd July '04)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK, North Riding
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andymate.
I do recall this tragic accident. There were 3 fatalities - the Squadron Commander, who was on the rumble seat and doing a check ride on the pilot, one of the navigators who's seat fired, and one in the GCA caravan. The pilot was very badly injured but survived. The other navigator, when the remains of the aircraft came to rest, found himself still strapped in with nothing in front of him and, I think, suffered a broken ankle. Will PM you with a few more details if you wish.
I do recall this tragic accident. There were 3 fatalities - the Squadron Commander, who was on the rumble seat and doing a check ride on the pilot, one of the navigators who's seat fired, and one in the GCA caravan. The pilot was very badly injured but survived. The other navigator, when the remains of the aircraft came to rest, found himself still strapped in with nothing in front of him and, I think, suffered a broken ankle. Will PM you with a few more details if you wish.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Canberra crash Binbrook
Pindi
Many thanks for your reply - my father was the Squadron Commander. The only details I know about the crash were from my mother. I would very much appreciate it if you could pm me with as much detail as you have.
Beeayeate
Many thanks for your response & thoughts. Were you there or is your info from public records?
Many thanks for your reply - my father was the Squadron Commander. The only details I know about the crash were from my mother. I would very much appreciate it if you could pm me with as much detail as you have.
Beeayeate
Many thanks for your response & thoughts. Were you there or is your info from public records?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: On the keyboard
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Canberra
Typical English Electric aircraft: aerodynamically fantastic/superb/world-beater/W.H.Y. As far as engineering and cockpit layout went - sheer cr*p.
The first time I flew one, I was amazed at the "disconnected" feeling between stick (sorry - control column) inputs and control surface response. The asymmetric handling was atrocious, largely because of that. The Meteor on asymmetric may have made your knee tremble after a couple of circuits, but at least you always knew EXACTLY what the relationship was between stick position and aileron position and rudder pedal/rudder position. Not so on the Canberra.
As for the cockpit layout, I still have my ETPS Cockpit Assessment report: "It looks as though the designer simply flung an assortment of gauges and switches around the cockpit and then fixed them wherever they happened to hit".
Also, the ONLY twin I ever flew on which roller landings were forbidden. Why? Cos the Avon 100 had such p*ss p**r acceleration characteristics that if you did try/need to go around again after touchdown, the chances of one engine failing to respond were far too great. One engine on 100%, the other at idle, is guaranteed to make you end up in the boondocks!
Is it possibly because the UK aircraft industry was smitten with "big ideas" rather than with grinding attention to detail ("too boring") that we eventually lost out to Boeing et al?
The first time I flew one, I was amazed at the "disconnected" feeling between stick (sorry - control column) inputs and control surface response. The asymmetric handling was atrocious, largely because of that. The Meteor on asymmetric may have made your knee tremble after a couple of circuits, but at least you always knew EXACTLY what the relationship was between stick position and aileron position and rudder pedal/rudder position. Not so on the Canberra.
As for the cockpit layout, I still have my ETPS Cockpit Assessment report: "It looks as though the designer simply flung an assortment of gauges and switches around the cockpit and then fixed them wherever they happened to hit".
Also, the ONLY twin I ever flew on which roller landings were forbidden. Why? Cos the Avon 100 had such p*ss p**r acceleration characteristics that if you did try/need to go around again after touchdown, the chances of one engine failing to respond were far too great. One engine on 100%, the other at idle, is guaranteed to make you end up in the boondocks!
Is it possibly because the UK aircraft industry was smitten with "big ideas" rather than with grinding attention to detail ("too boring") that we eventually lost out to Boeing et al?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bird Strikes - Ouch
More from memoirs
The following month during 1958, I collected Canberra A84-237 from the base at Amberley. This aircraft was to be used for cabin conditioning trials in the tropics. Crews based at Butterworth in Malaysia, had long complained about inadequate cooling at low altitudes and inadequate heating at high altitudes. We fitted some modified control valves, an improved heat exchanger and some special instrumentation at Laverton. I made a few test flights of the revised system from Laverton before flying to Butterworth via Darwin. My navigator was Flt Lt Ted Bloomfield. The RAAF had one squadron of Canberras and two squadrons of Sabres based at Butterworth.
We were soon involved with tests on the new environmental control system (ECS) which was showing some improvements. I wanted to try the system on an extended night flight at high altitude. It is a phenomenon of world climatology that the upper air temperatures are coldest over the tropics. There are two particular regions of the world's atmosphere where the coldest conditions are experienced. One of these is over Northern Australia in the vicinity of Darwin. The other region is off the west coast of South America. Upper air temperatures in these regions can be as low as -90 degrees Celsius whereas the standard air temperature for the troposphere is -57 degrees above 36,000 ft. We knew quite a lot about these conditions as we were at the time developing a special RAAF Standard Atmosphere for RAAF tropical operations.
Birds caused me some problems at Butterworth. I wanted to test the ECS at low altitude and high speed. Whilst at about 400 kts at 200 ft over the sea off the island of Penang, I noticed a little black spot grow rapidly in size directly along the aircraft flight path. I only had time to pull a little on the stick before the bird impacted with a big thump on the aircraft's nose. I pulled up losing speed trying to assess damage. At the speed even a small bird could do considerable damage and this one had been fairly large. We returned immediately to land at Butterworth.
Fortunately, the bird had impacted along one edge of the forward bomb aimer's window. This was armoured glass and had taken most of the shock. A deep gouge had been made in the perspex surrounding the glass window. We were lucky.
A few days later I had the test Canberra fuel load at maximum when I started a take-off at dusk from the 8,000 ft runway at Butterworth. As we accelerated towards lift-off, I saw a very dense flock of small birds rise up off the runway some 600 feet away. Appearing like a small black cloud the birds flew upwards and I thought that I would probably miss most of them if I held down, on or close to, the runway. But the black cloud, disturbed by my approach, apparently decided to try to go back to ground.
I had now lifted off and had a split second to decide whether to put the wheels back on the runway and abort the take off. But there was hardly enough runway left in which to stop the heavy aircraft. Were I to fly through the birds, I would likely lose both engines. What a predicament! Instinctively, I pulled back hard on the controls in an attempt to rise above the main concentration of birds. The aircraft shuddered, at the low speed, as I felt for the limits of the lift from the wings. This occurs just before wing stall which was to be avoided at all costs.
The navigator, behind me, was unable to see forward so I advised him and the tower by calling out,"Avoiding birds" as I tried to also turn a little to the right. The black cloud rapidly became a multitude of dots as I squashed into the outer fringes. There was a staccato of little bangs and the left engine wound down a few RPM before recovering. We had made it. I pulled a substantial reduction in power on both engines in case there was damage, left the undercarriage down and flew a tight circuit to return to the runway as soon as possible. On the landing run, I could see dead and injured birds scattered on the runway.
There was evidence of birds having hit the engine compressor guide vanes and many birds and pieces were pulled from the undercarriage and wheel wells. We had not been fast enough for the small birds to have damaged the aircraft skin. The fire crew picked up 58 birds from the runway.
Inspection and ground running of engines did not point to any damage so we launched again the next evening after a vehicle had flushed out any birds from, and adjacent to, the runway. The flight was to have been for about 4 hours at maximum altitude to permit aircraft temperatures to stabilise. After 3 hours, we were too cold to continue and I returned to lower altitudes and warmer air.
The trials had shown the inadequacy of the revised Environmental Control System (ECS) system so it was now up to the engineers to try again.
Later, and after the ECS mixing valves from the test Canberra were returned to Australia, it was found that they had been incorrectly rigged. The cold air butterfly valves had never been able to quite reach the fully closed position. The whole test program had thus been a waste of time and effort and had to be repeated. The second trials proved the modified system to be marginally acceptable.
The following month during 1958, I collected Canberra A84-237 from the base at Amberley. This aircraft was to be used for cabin conditioning trials in the tropics. Crews based at Butterworth in Malaysia, had long complained about inadequate cooling at low altitudes and inadequate heating at high altitudes. We fitted some modified control valves, an improved heat exchanger and some special instrumentation at Laverton. I made a few test flights of the revised system from Laverton before flying to Butterworth via Darwin. My navigator was Flt Lt Ted Bloomfield. The RAAF had one squadron of Canberras and two squadrons of Sabres based at Butterworth.
We were soon involved with tests on the new environmental control system (ECS) which was showing some improvements. I wanted to try the system on an extended night flight at high altitude. It is a phenomenon of world climatology that the upper air temperatures are coldest over the tropics. There are two particular regions of the world's atmosphere where the coldest conditions are experienced. One of these is over Northern Australia in the vicinity of Darwin. The other region is off the west coast of South America. Upper air temperatures in these regions can be as low as -90 degrees Celsius whereas the standard air temperature for the troposphere is -57 degrees above 36,000 ft. We knew quite a lot about these conditions as we were at the time developing a special RAAF Standard Atmosphere for RAAF tropical operations.
Birds caused me some problems at Butterworth. I wanted to test the ECS at low altitude and high speed. Whilst at about 400 kts at 200 ft over the sea off the island of Penang, I noticed a little black spot grow rapidly in size directly along the aircraft flight path. I only had time to pull a little on the stick before the bird impacted with a big thump on the aircraft's nose. I pulled up losing speed trying to assess damage. At the speed even a small bird could do considerable damage and this one had been fairly large. We returned immediately to land at Butterworth.
Fortunately, the bird had impacted along one edge of the forward bomb aimer's window. This was armoured glass and had taken most of the shock. A deep gouge had been made in the perspex surrounding the glass window. We were lucky.
A few days later I had the test Canberra fuel load at maximum when I started a take-off at dusk from the 8,000 ft runway at Butterworth. As we accelerated towards lift-off, I saw a very dense flock of small birds rise up off the runway some 600 feet away. Appearing like a small black cloud the birds flew upwards and I thought that I would probably miss most of them if I held down, on or close to, the runway. But the black cloud, disturbed by my approach, apparently decided to try to go back to ground.
I had now lifted off and had a split second to decide whether to put the wheels back on the runway and abort the take off. But there was hardly enough runway left in which to stop the heavy aircraft. Were I to fly through the birds, I would likely lose both engines. What a predicament! Instinctively, I pulled back hard on the controls in an attempt to rise above the main concentration of birds. The aircraft shuddered, at the low speed, as I felt for the limits of the lift from the wings. This occurs just before wing stall which was to be avoided at all costs.
The navigator, behind me, was unable to see forward so I advised him and the tower by calling out,"Avoiding birds" as I tried to also turn a little to the right. The black cloud rapidly became a multitude of dots as I squashed into the outer fringes. There was a staccato of little bangs and the left engine wound down a few RPM before recovering. We had made it. I pulled a substantial reduction in power on both engines in case there was damage, left the undercarriage down and flew a tight circuit to return to the runway as soon as possible. On the landing run, I could see dead and injured birds scattered on the runway.
There was evidence of birds having hit the engine compressor guide vanes and many birds and pieces were pulled from the undercarriage and wheel wells. We had not been fast enough for the small birds to have damaged the aircraft skin. The fire crew picked up 58 birds from the runway.
Inspection and ground running of engines did not point to any damage so we launched again the next evening after a vehicle had flushed out any birds from, and adjacent to, the runway. The flight was to have been for about 4 hours at maximum altitude to permit aircraft temperatures to stabilise. After 3 hours, we were too cold to continue and I returned to lower altitudes and warmer air.
The trials had shown the inadequacy of the revised Environmental Control System (ECS) system so it was now up to the engineers to try again.
Later, and after the ECS mixing valves from the test Canberra were returned to Australia, it was found that they had been incorrectly rigged. The cold air butterfly valves had never been able to quite reach the fully closed position. The whole test program had thus been a waste of time and effort and had to be repeated. The second trials proved the modified system to be marginally acceptable.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vertico, I agree that the cockpit was an ergonomic nightmare. However, in those days, cockpit layout did not feature large in the design team agenda. It was not until the manned space programme got underway did the whole subject of cockpit design take off.
Milt, I can also vouch for the ability of the Avons to swallow birds and keep going. I got airborne in a T4 for an IRT, but before the IRE could pull back an engine, there was a series of loud thumps and one of the engines surged for a few seconds before recovery. We looked at each other and simultaneously revealed that the engine on our side had evidence of birds having been ingested - in other words, both engines took a hit. The IRE told me that they looked like pigeons, not exactly small birds. Anyway, we flew the approach on 2 engines with the asymmetric speeds and made a safe landing. I went to the engine bay when they had split the engines (you could lift off the whole top half of the engine). All bleed valves were completely clogged with bird remains, compressor blades were nicked on both engines, but more seriously, one complete stage of rotor blades was missing from one of the engines! But they both kept going as though there was nothing wrong. Who sez that Rolls Royce weren't the finest?
Milt, I can also vouch for the ability of the Avons to swallow birds and keep going. I got airborne in a T4 for an IRT, but before the IRE could pull back an engine, there was a series of loud thumps and one of the engines surged for a few seconds before recovery. We looked at each other and simultaneously revealed that the engine on our side had evidence of birds having been ingested - in other words, both engines took a hit. The IRE told me that they looked like pigeons, not exactly small birds. Anyway, we flew the approach on 2 engines with the asymmetric speeds and made a safe landing. I went to the engine bay when they had split the engines (you could lift off the whole top half of the engine). All bleed valves were completely clogged with bird remains, compressor blades were nicked on both engines, but more seriously, one complete stage of rotor blades was missing from one of the engines! But they both kept going as though there was nothing wrong. Who sez that Rolls Royce weren't the finest?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a good pub (I wish!)
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Cockpit ergonomics
Didn't the Martin Baker MB5 of 1944/5 have a cockpit well designed that the test pilots of the day (ETPS?) say it was an example for all other manufacturers to copy? If so why hadn't this idea/proposal been copied in the Canberra et al? Any TPs able to make comments?
Not trying to hi-jack the thread, but to understand if the above has any truth/bearing on cockpit design of the day.
H
Didn't the Martin Baker MB5 of 1944/5 have a cockpit well designed that the test pilots of the day (ETPS?) say it was an example for all other manufacturers to copy? If so why hadn't this idea/proposal been copied in the Canberra et al? Any TPs able to make comments?
Not trying to hi-jack the thread, but to understand if the above has any truth/bearing on cockpit design of the day.
H
Join Date: May 2002
Location: On the keyboard
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FJJP
I agree that Rolls-Royce were undoubtedly the finest. Something like 95% of my total flying hours were powered by RR - mostly single-jets which never once let me down!
FD&H
Yes, by the time even the first Canberra cockpits were designed, cockpit layout was understood to be important for the safe and effective operation of aircraft. Ergonomics was then in its infancy, but most contemporaries of the Canberra (eg Canadair T-33, Hunter) were streets ahead of its awful layout. RAF TP input was important, but sometimes too late. One of the worst examples of that was TSR2, where Boscombe Down input was overruled (by English Electric - again!) on the footling grounds that it would delay first flight. The old, old story of too many vested interests. Still going strong, I fear.
I agree that Rolls-Royce were undoubtedly the finest. Something like 95% of my total flying hours were powered by RR - mostly single-jets which never once let me down!
FD&H
Yes, by the time even the first Canberra cockpits were designed, cockpit layout was understood to be important for the safe and effective operation of aircraft. Ergonomics was then in its infancy, but most contemporaries of the Canberra (eg Canadair T-33, Hunter) were streets ahead of its awful layout. RAF TP input was important, but sometimes too late. One of the worst examples of that was TSR2, where Boscombe Down input was overruled (by English Electric - again!) on the footling grounds that it would delay first flight. The old, old story of too many vested interests. Still going strong, I fear.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vertico
Did ETPS at Farnborough 1954 when we had a Canberra join the fleet.
We had no problems with go rounds provided we carefully monitored engine accelerations for compatibility. Ther must have been some close calls after my time.
Was the following Canberra still ther in your time?
At about this time, ETPS took delivery of a B2 Canberra No 867 which had just come through a major overhaul with English Electric at Warton. It was flown into Farnborough by one of the tutors. It was a normal practice then for the TPS engineers to do an acceptance inspection. The senior engineer was meticulous which was as well in that we all placed abnormal reliance on the reliability of the aircraft he and his team maintained and serviced.
Part of his inspection involved climbing through a hatch beneath the rear fuselage to examine the rudder and elevator control push-pull rods which ran along the left side of the fuselage through bearings at about 4 feet intervals. The rods connected directly with the flying controls in the cockpit. They were made from alloy tubing about 1 inch in diameter. The engineer discovered some metal particles scattered down the side of the fuselage in the vicinity of one of the bearings. He initially thought that one of the bearings may have seized and this may have been the source of the metal particles.
On the ground, the mass balances of the Canberra elevator controls caused the elevators to drop to their lower stops so that the control column was always fully forward. The engineer used a piece of cord to tie the control column to the rear so that he could then inspect the complete run of the control rods. On climbing back into the rear fuselage, he was appalled to find that one of the elevator rods had been cut almost right through. The saw cut had been made so that it would be concealed by a bearing with the controls in their normal ground position.
All hell broke loose. Following an initial ETPS investigation, the police and Scotland Yard commenced a vigorous investigation at the English Electric plant at Wharton.
Some months previously, the wiring looms in the main electronics equipment bay of a Canberra being overhauled at Wharton had been extensively cut by someone using wire cutters. The culprit had not been found. Examination of work records showed that three workmen had worked on both aircraft during the periods in question. Close questioning eventually brought forth a confession by one fitter to both acts of sabotage.
Prior to the sabotage, the culprit had been working on night shifts for which there was an extra pay loading. He was transferred against his wishes to day shifts and decided to take out his resentment by deliberately damaging aircraft on which he was working. He was arrested, charged with sabotage and sentenced to life imprisonment.
I have always taken great care with pre-flight inspections ever since and it was not the last case of sabotage to cross my path.
We had no problems with go rounds provided we carefully monitored engine accelerations for compatibility. Ther must have been some close calls after my time.
Was the following Canberra still ther in your time?
At about this time, ETPS took delivery of a B2 Canberra No 867 which had just come through a major overhaul with English Electric at Warton. It was flown into Farnborough by one of the tutors. It was a normal practice then for the TPS engineers to do an acceptance inspection. The senior engineer was meticulous which was as well in that we all placed abnormal reliance on the reliability of the aircraft he and his team maintained and serviced.
Part of his inspection involved climbing through a hatch beneath the rear fuselage to examine the rudder and elevator control push-pull rods which ran along the left side of the fuselage through bearings at about 4 feet intervals. The rods connected directly with the flying controls in the cockpit. They were made from alloy tubing about 1 inch in diameter. The engineer discovered some metal particles scattered down the side of the fuselage in the vicinity of one of the bearings. He initially thought that one of the bearings may have seized and this may have been the source of the metal particles.
On the ground, the mass balances of the Canberra elevator controls caused the elevators to drop to their lower stops so that the control column was always fully forward. The engineer used a piece of cord to tie the control column to the rear so that he could then inspect the complete run of the control rods. On climbing back into the rear fuselage, he was appalled to find that one of the elevator rods had been cut almost right through. The saw cut had been made so that it would be concealed by a bearing with the controls in their normal ground position.
All hell broke loose. Following an initial ETPS investigation, the police and Scotland Yard commenced a vigorous investigation at the English Electric plant at Wharton.
Some months previously, the wiring looms in the main electronics equipment bay of a Canberra being overhauled at Wharton had been extensively cut by someone using wire cutters. The culprit had not been found. Examination of work records showed that three workmen had worked on both aircraft during the periods in question. Close questioning eventually brought forth a confession by one fitter to both acts of sabotage.
Prior to the sabotage, the culprit had been working on night shifts for which there was an extra pay loading. He was transferred against his wishes to day shifts and decided to take out his resentment by deliberately damaging aircraft on which he was working. He was arrested, charged with sabotage and sentenced to life imprisonment.
I have always taken great care with pre-flight inspections ever since and it was not the last case of sabotage to cross my path.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: On the keyboard
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John Farley
Surprised at your e-mail. No, Sir, it wasn't a "wind-up". My earlier comments on this thread were my genuine thoughts. If you have taken umbrage (= been wound up) by any of them, please say so, and why, in this open forum. Then I, and anyone else interested, can come back openly with our thoughts.
The beauty of this forum is that we can all say exactly what we think - and either defend our thoughts or admit that someone else has better ideas.
Surprised at your e-mail. No, Sir, it wasn't a "wind-up". My earlier comments on this thread were my genuine thoughts. If you have taken umbrage (= been wound up) by any of them, please say so, and why, in this open forum. Then I, and anyone else interested, can come back openly with our thoughts.
The beauty of this forum is that we can all say exactly what we think - and either defend our thoughts or admit that someone else has better ideas.
Milt
Surely when the elevator ground locks were out, the elevators went to the 'nose up' position ie. the control column would have been fully rearwards. I am pretty sure that this was the case in the T4, PR7, Pr9 & T22. Was the B2 different?
CC
Surely when the elevator ground locks were out, the elevators went to the 'nose up' position ie. the control column would have been fully rearwards. I am pretty sure that this was the case in the T4, PR7, Pr9 & T22. Was the B2 different?
CC
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The T17 was a modified B2, destined for 360 and 361 Sqns. 361 was to be based in the Far East to provide EW training for the Forces over there. The aircraft destined for 361 were fitted with the same air ventilated suit (AVS) system that was fitted to the Vulcan. I had my old Vulcan AVS and had an adaptor fitted by the safety equipment guys. Although the system was never maintained, it hadn't been blanked off and still worked! Reasonably effective but at LL in the Med the temps were just too much for the system to cope with. Besides, the AVS was an additional layer of clothing you didn't need pre-flight!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Compass Call
Canberra elevators.
Hey you may be right about the yoke being in your lap on the ground. The mass balance would have been in the nose of the elevators. Memoirs amendment in process!
Cannot recall whether the other variants we had at BD including B8s were the same.
Just how many variants were there excluding the B57.?
And what ones still in service anywhere?
We have one still flying with the Temora Museum Down Under.
Canberra elevators.
Hey you may be right about the yoke being in your lap on the ground. The mass balance would have been in the nose of the elevators. Memoirs amendment in process!
Cannot recall whether the other variants we had at BD including B8s were the same.
Just how many variants were there excluding the B57.?
And what ones still in service anywhere?
We have one still flying with the Temora Museum Down Under.
Nemesis of the Proot Dynasty
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in Hampshire
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Milt and Compass,
Without elevator locks in place, the elevators did indeed go fully nose up on Canberras without powered flying controls.
If you remember, without the elevator locks in place, you couldn't get into the seat, without pushing the column forward (and holding it there!).
Without elevator locks in place, the elevators did indeed go fully nose up on Canberras without powered flying controls.
If you remember, without the elevator locks in place, you couldn't get into the seat, without pushing the column forward (and holding it there!).
Last edited by Lukeafb1; 10th Mar 2004 at 00:57.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Milt, thoroughly enjoy your memoirs, particularly the 'one armed paper hangar' antics during the race at Avalon! And would like to have seen your display. Can't think what your long suffering Nav was feeling. And thanks to you, and people like you, for ironing out most of the snags on the aircraft before people like me were let loose on it.
Vertico, I don't remember the cockpit ergonomics and instrumentation being that bad. But since I came from three years of driving a desk, with only the standard, and enjoyable, refresher at Strubby before clambering aboard the Canberra, any cockpit layout was very acceptable. Before which it was all Meteors and Vamp T11, which weren't all that good either. I do remember that my minimal experience of the F86 was like sitting in arm chair comfort in comparison, and that the Hunter fitted like a glove. And not having flown the Canberra from 1965, it was like coming home to an old friend when I next did in 74. In all I got about 1000 enjoyable hours in one of my favourite aeroplanes.
I mentioned earlier the multi role tasks of the Akrotiri Wing. I forgot to mention that just before I left, our squadron was given the French AS30 air to ground guided weapon to play with, and our crew was lucky enough to fire the second round at El Adem range; naturally the Boss had the first. The weapon was radio guided, much like a radio control model aircraft, from the nose position, by the nav observer, and since it needed to be eyeballed to the target, it certainly wasn't 'launch and forget'. Charlie, our backseat nav told us how to get to the range, Ray, in the nose achieved a direct hit on the two large drums simulating an oil depot or somesuch, and I did what I was told by those two. Very satisfactory. I don't know if the AS30 stayed in service, or was quickly superceded by Martel etc. It must have been one of the first, if not the first, A/G guided weapons in the RAF.
Reading through the entertaining, and sometimes tragic, items on this thread, particularly the hair raising bang seat stories, reminds me of an old mate of mine who banged out of a Harrier which misbehaved during the hover. He went out as it passed 90 degrees of bank, and was arrested by tree branches if I remember it right. He returned to flying, but not ejector seats, and in fact still flies some exotic executive jet at an age when most people have retired to the golf course, or in my case, to the good life in the Oz Blue Mountains.
Vertico, I don't remember the cockpit ergonomics and instrumentation being that bad. But since I came from three years of driving a desk, with only the standard, and enjoyable, refresher at Strubby before clambering aboard the Canberra, any cockpit layout was very acceptable. Before which it was all Meteors and Vamp T11, which weren't all that good either. I do remember that my minimal experience of the F86 was like sitting in arm chair comfort in comparison, and that the Hunter fitted like a glove. And not having flown the Canberra from 1965, it was like coming home to an old friend when I next did in 74. In all I got about 1000 enjoyable hours in one of my favourite aeroplanes.
I mentioned earlier the multi role tasks of the Akrotiri Wing. I forgot to mention that just before I left, our squadron was given the French AS30 air to ground guided weapon to play with, and our crew was lucky enough to fire the second round at El Adem range; naturally the Boss had the first. The weapon was radio guided, much like a radio control model aircraft, from the nose position, by the nav observer, and since it needed to be eyeballed to the target, it certainly wasn't 'launch and forget'. Charlie, our backseat nav told us how to get to the range, Ray, in the nose achieved a direct hit on the two large drums simulating an oil depot or somesuch, and I did what I was told by those two. Very satisfactory. I don't know if the AS30 stayed in service, or was quickly superceded by Martel etc. It must have been one of the first, if not the first, A/G guided weapons in the RAF.
Reading through the entertaining, and sometimes tragic, items on this thread, particularly the hair raising bang seat stories, reminds me of an old mate of mine who banged out of a Harrier which misbehaved during the hover. He went out as it passed 90 degrees of bank, and was arrested by tree branches if I remember it right. He returned to flying, but not ejector seats, and in fact still flies some exotic executive jet at an age when most people have retired to the golf course, or in my case, to the good life in the Oz Blue Mountains.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vertico
I sent you a PM because I do not think this open forum is the right place for making personal remarks – although I realise I may well be in the minority in that regard.
But since you insist, I found the way you expressed your views about the Canberra (on 6 March) a very long way below the standards of objectivity that are taught at ETPS and as such reflected badly on the school.
Your not very original remark about the cockpit layout would certainly not have impressed the tutors in my day, nor I suspect in yours.
JF
I sent you a PM because I do not think this open forum is the right place for making personal remarks – although I realise I may well be in the minority in that regard.
But since you insist, I found the way you expressed your views about the Canberra (on 6 March) a very long way below the standards of objectivity that are taught at ETPS and as such reflected badly on the school.
Your not very original remark about the cockpit layout would certainly not have impressed the tutors in my day, nor I suspect in yours.
JF
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if any one remembers this...
Whilst in my local last night I was told of an incident involving a canberra based at Wyton ,in the 70's I believe..
Whilst on a test flight somewhere over Norfolk, the aircraft suffered a birdstrike. The result of the impact with a Sparrowhawk caused the canopy to shatter and the carcass entered the cockpit, struck the pilot on the helmet, forcing his head backwards and wedging the pilots bonedome between the side of the bang seat and the canopy. The pilot, sitting in his seat with his vision obscured due to his position; something akin to Prof. Stephen Hawkins in his wheelchair, managed to fly back to Wyton where it landed with out further incident.
Just wondered if anyone remembers such an incident?
Cheers.. DP
Whilst in my local last night I was told of an incident involving a canberra based at Wyton ,in the 70's I believe..
Whilst on a test flight somewhere over Norfolk, the aircraft suffered a birdstrike. The result of the impact with a Sparrowhawk caused the canopy to shatter and the carcass entered the cockpit, struck the pilot on the helmet, forcing his head backwards and wedging the pilots bonedome between the side of the bang seat and the canopy. The pilot, sitting in his seat with his vision obscured due to his position; something akin to Prof. Stephen Hawkins in his wheelchair, managed to fly back to Wyton where it landed with out further incident.
Just wondered if anyone remembers such an incident?
Cheers.. DP
Nemesis of the Proot Dynasty
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in Hampshire
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vertico,
Far be it for me to question a pilot, but as a crew chief, I flew many times on jollys or detachments with Canberras, and remember one occasion when we flew between Watton, Wyton and Marham on a night exercise and did at least three rollers and one full stop at Marham and Watton. Can still remember the pilot's name on that occasion.
Far be it for me to question a pilot, but as a crew chief, I flew many times on jollys or detachments with Canberras, and remember one occasion when we flew between Watton, Wyton and Marham on a night exercise and did at least three rollers and one full stop at Marham and Watton. Can still remember the pilot's name on that occasion.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Canberra at Shawbury
A quick question in this exalted company
My only experience of the Canberra was in 1972 whilst on the JATCO course at Shawbury. I went on a jolly, er.. experience flight in one down to Kemble and back. The pilot was an old buffer Wingco. (I was only 19 YO). I think 27 MU was there at the time, would they have kept a Canberra as a comms cab?
On that course there were several ex-vulcan/canberra/shackleton aircrew who really didn't take to the idea of sitting in a black hole, talking on the r/t to people enjoying themselves.
My only experience of the Canberra was in 1972 whilst on the JATCO course at Shawbury. I went on a jolly, er.. experience flight in one down to Kemble and back. The pilot was an old buffer Wingco. (I was only 19 YO). I think 27 MU was there at the time, would they have kept a Canberra as a comms cab?
On that course there were several ex-vulcan/canberra/shackleton aircrew who really didn't take to the idea of sitting in a black hole, talking on the r/t to people enjoying themselves.