Jet dives to avoid another plane; 4 are hurt
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Wino
I think you'll find that the UK at large is and always has been very happy to do exactly as you suggest. As the country with THE finest Navy, Army and Air Force in the world you can rest easy in the knowledge that Great Britain will continue to support our "friends and allies" as you are so fond of putting it and also our special friend, the good old USA for many years to come.
The solution is VERY SIMPLE. Start taxing yourself and providing your own manpower, and equipting your forces so you can do the job yourself. Nothing would make America happier.
Phone Mr Guiness for the records
Why is it that every country has THE world's finest military forces?
Has there been another world title competition that I have missed?
Has there been another world title competition that I have missed?
Sousa (and Wino and .....)
The USA made a great contribution to maintaining freedom and defeating totalitarianism in the Second World War. It's debateable as to whether Britain and Russia could have done it alone (maybe, maybe not, and if we had succeeded it would have been costly, long, and very hard).
But the Second World War ran from 1939-1945 (and the Great War from 1914-18) - note the start dates gentlemen.
And while most Europeans will forever be grateful to our US allies for their help, this arrogant "Without us you'd be speaking German" attitude is ignorant, historically dubious, offensive and counter productive.
Do you think that victory in WWII would have been such a walk-over without the Russians and the Brits? Without radar? Without the A-bomb? Without victory in North Africa? Without Enigma? Without the defeat of the Luftwaffe in 1940? Without the Wehrmacht bleeding to death in the Russian snow? Without the destruction of the Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee, etc. etc.
Do we have to start reminding you of the dodgy US foreign policy adventures which we've supported, which would have led to complete international isolation without that support?
The USA made a great contribution to maintaining freedom and defeating totalitarianism in the Second World War. It's debateable as to whether Britain and Russia could have done it alone (maybe, maybe not, and if we had succeeded it would have been costly, long, and very hard).
But the Second World War ran from 1939-1945 (and the Great War from 1914-18) - note the start dates gentlemen.
And while most Europeans will forever be grateful to our US allies for their help, this arrogant "Without us you'd be speaking German" attitude is ignorant, historically dubious, offensive and counter productive.
Do you think that victory in WWII would have been such a walk-over without the Russians and the Brits? Without radar? Without the A-bomb? Without victory in North Africa? Without Enigma? Without the defeat of the Luftwaffe in 1940? Without the Wehrmacht bleeding to death in the Russian snow? Without the destruction of the Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee, etc. etc.
Do we have to start reminding you of the dodgy US foreign policy adventures which we've supported, which would have led to complete international isolation without that support?
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Topic : Jet dives etc., rant about the US
As in pom vernacular, what a load of b*ll*cks...
It's becoming tiresomely obvious who has an axe to grind with the US- most of them putative allies.
As a former RAF pilot I know of plenty such incidents caused by our own 'chaps'. And whilst, but for the grace of whoever, I did not manage to cause such things (that I'm aware of), impromptu displays/'buzzing' were as much a part of brit ops as anyone else,including the Italians whose politicians disingenuously made such a stink over a horrific accident.
Get a grip, and s*rew the jingoist whiners.Wish I could be more diplomatic like West Coast, but his always rational postings as usual won't penetrate.
It's becoming tiresomely obvious who has an axe to grind with the US- most of them putative allies.
As a former RAF pilot I know of plenty such incidents caused by our own 'chaps'. And whilst, but for the grace of whoever, I did not manage to cause such things (that I'm aware of), impromptu displays/'buzzing' were as much a part of brit ops as anyone else,including the Italians whose politicians disingenuously made such a stink over a horrific accident.
Get a grip, and s*rew the jingoist whiners.Wish I could be more diplomatic like West Coast, but his always rational postings as usual won't penetrate.
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RunawayGun. Concur in full.
The rest of you do gooding whingers... Dry up. Brit Mil isn't always all it's cracked up to be either. Dry your eyes and get on with the job! Like it or not, everyone does things differently!
G'Night.
The rest of you do gooding whingers... Dry up. Brit Mil isn't always all it's cracked up to be either. Dry your eyes and get on with the job! Like it or not, everyone does things differently!
G'Night.
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Flyboy....
Does doing things differently mean it has to be done dangerously or with no regard to local procedures????? I think not.
If you would like some specifics of daily incidents and Airmisses, especially as the Afghan campaign continues, feel free to PM me, I think you may be enlightened in what is really happening in the big picture......!
Does doing things differently mean it has to be done dangerously or with no regard to local procedures????? I think not.
If you would like some specifics of daily incidents and Airmisses, especially as the Afghan campaign continues, feel free to PM me, I think you may be enlightened in what is really happening in the big picture......!
Gatvol
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Pontious Writes:As for the Beach Fly-by...
"IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!!" So what part of "IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!"is not getting through to you,Boys and Girls?
Ah Yes....Rules. I seem to remember streching them a bit in Military Helicopters. Sort of went with the enviornment in certain places of the world. I mean the Other guys only wanted to kill you...
Just seems to me that the attitude of pushing the envelope and the rules went with being a Helicopter Pilot or a Fighter Pilot. The ones who cried the most at us for doing so had neat little desks, with all the pencils sharpened and big bookcases full of F**king Rules. BUT they didnt wear wings.....
P.S. I like the U.K., I learned how to drink real Beer there.
"IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!!" So what part of "IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!"is not getting through to you,Boys and Girls?
Ah Yes....Rules. I seem to remember streching them a bit in Military Helicopters. Sort of went with the enviornment in certain places of the world. I mean the Other guys only wanted to kill you...
Just seems to me that the attitude of pushing the envelope and the rules went with being a Helicopter Pilot or a Fighter Pilot. The ones who cried the most at us for doing so had neat little desks, with all the pencils sharpened and big bookcases full of F**king Rules. BUT they didnt wear wings.....
P.S. I like the U.K., I learned how to drink real Beer there.
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Actually the RAF manage to create a lot of paperwork when visiting foreing destinations as well..........
"AIP? Standing orders flying? Flight plan? What is that?"
and:
"No! No radar at an approach unit does NOT mean you can fly trough it's CAS at FL100 without talking to them first!"
It's great fun!
It's allso rumoured that a Gr.4 pilot confused his flight lead and a DHC8 in class G while on NVGs. Did not react to the fact that "lead" suddenly came straight at him with all landing lights flashing at full force! 60ft clearence when they passed! Gr.4s did not talk to anyone eighter btw....
"AIP? Standing orders flying? Flight plan? What is that?"
and:
"No! No radar at an approach unit does NOT mean you can fly trough it's CAS at FL100 without talking to them first!"
It's great fun!
It's allso rumoured that a Gr.4 pilot confused his flight lead and a DHC8 in class G while on NVGs. Did not react to the fact that "lead" suddenly came straight at him with all landing lights flashing at full force! 60ft clearence when they passed! Gr.4s did not talk to anyone eighter btw....
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Fox3: No indeed, differently doesn't mean dangerously. But lets face it, beat ups, air misses, lack of SA etc are not exclusive to the US, or Italy, or Auz or Brits, or any other country. Everyone has been there. Some get away with it, some don't.I'm not gonna bring up specific incidents; I really can't be a*sed, but why is it that the everyone jumps on their high horse so quickly? I have cocked up several times. You must be a real legend to be such a safe, perfect operator!Congratulations.
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Flyboy...
Thank you, your recognition is appreciated.
The situations you have decribed in your post are quite trivial in relation to the situations I am specifically referring to. Yes everyone cocks up, but when its on a regular basis with uncanny consistancy you really have to wonder.
Every other Military unit does their research prior to coming and operating in theatre here bar one, simple ommissions like ooooh!...planning all the transit levels to/in and from the tactical areas at non conformal levels for this part of the world and ultimately causing an incident on a daily basis or better at the height of activities. This not only put coalition aircraft at risk on numerous occassions but also the fare paying punters which did/does and will continue to happen.
Thank you, your recognition is appreciated.
The situations you have decribed in your post are quite trivial in relation to the situations I am specifically referring to. Yes everyone cocks up, but when its on a regular basis with uncanny consistancy you really have to wonder.
Every other Military unit does their research prior to coming and operating in theatre here bar one, simple ommissions like ooooh!...planning all the transit levels to/in and from the tactical areas at non conformal levels for this part of the world and ultimately causing an incident on a daily basis or better at the height of activities. This not only put coalition aircraft at risk on numerous occassions but also the fare paying punters which did/does and will continue to happen.
Last edited by Fox3snapshot; 21st Sep 2003 at 23:06.
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I have always wondered if the US Military had shot down an American airliner instead of an Iranian one, brought down a cable car in the U.S instead of an Italian one, sunk a fishing boat and killed American fishermen instead of Japanese fishermen, killed U.S. soldiers instead of British, Canadian, American trained Iraqis, and others whether American citizens would be so philosopical about these deaths. One gets the impression from various sources that provided only "Aliens" get killed then it is OK. This is not an anti-American diatribe as I have a lot of respect for the USA and its people, but I some times wonder about American attitudes and its lack of mutual respect for other nations.
Gatvol
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DC10RealMan writes: I have always wondered if the US Military had shot down an American airliner instead of an Iranian one, brought down a cable car in the U.S instead of an Italian one, sunk a fishing boat and killed American fishermen instead of Japanese fishermen, killed U.S. soldiers instead of British, Canadian, American trained Iraqis, and others whether American citizens would be so philosopical about these deaths. One gets the impression from various sources that provided only "Aliens" get killed then it is OK. This is not an anti-American diatribe as I have a lot of respect for the USA and its people, but I some times wonder about American attitudes and its lack of mutual respect for other nations.
Great shot and what I originally stated, We should stay home. Then you folks can take the heat for all the problems......Then we can sit on the sidelines eating popcorn saying look at those idiots......Glad its not us......
When I read this stuff, I just wish I could get on the phone and say Mr President bring everyone home, someone else wants the job.
I cant believe you really feel those folks were overjoyed at shooting down an Iranian Airliner, cutting that cable on the Tram, sinking a japanese fishing Boat ( BTW why the hell wasnt he fishing in Japan instead of U.S. waters) and Friendly Fire incidents where allies were killed. I think most were the result of technology being more advanced than the human operators.
Attitude you bet......When you take over I will bring the attitude home.....
As to the comment on keeping the Safety folks busy. You bet. What the folks are involved in is dangerous stuff, folks get killed in training and combat. Its all part of the package. You want the package, you take the heat.
Great shot and what I originally stated, We should stay home. Then you folks can take the heat for all the problems......Then we can sit on the sidelines eating popcorn saying look at those idiots......Glad its not us......
When I read this stuff, I just wish I could get on the phone and say Mr President bring everyone home, someone else wants the job.
I cant believe you really feel those folks were overjoyed at shooting down an Iranian Airliner, cutting that cable on the Tram, sinking a japanese fishing Boat ( BTW why the hell wasnt he fishing in Japan instead of U.S. waters) and Friendly Fire incidents where allies were killed. I think most were the result of technology being more advanced than the human operators.
Attitude you bet......When you take over I will bring the attitude home.....
As to the comment on keeping the Safety folks busy. You bet. What the folks are involved in is dangerous stuff, folks get killed in training and combat. Its all part of the package. You want the package, you take the heat.
It's simple really:
Grow out of the gung-ho, hoooah mentality.
IDENT BEFORE SHOOT
................and accept the fact that, despite Holywood and the endearing charm of your politicians, err, actually quite a lot of the world really isn't terribly keen on you. Sorry - now Have A Nice Day.
Grow out of the gung-ho, hoooah mentality.
IDENT BEFORE SHOOT
................and accept the fact that, despite Holywood and the endearing charm of your politicians, err, actually quite a lot of the world really isn't terribly keen on you. Sorry - now Have A Nice Day.
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( BTW why the hell wasnt he fishing in Japan instead of U.S. waters)
After leaving Honolulu she set course for her training ground, well out into international waters, and maintained this steady course and speed until the collision. Meanwhile USS Grenville was at sea conducting a public affairs “distinguished visitor” embark for 16 civilian guests. She set sail with several of her sonar team left ashore (including the Leading Chief Petty Officer for the Sonar Division) and her sonar repeater display in the control room was not working. An unqualified crew member was on watch in the sonar room in a position that was required to be manned only by (or directly supervised by) a qualified crew member - he was neither. The fishing vessel was held on sonar for over an hour (on her steady cse/spd) before the incident (I am loath to call this an accident!).
Basically, if you read the full report you will see that the CO and other members of his crew (XO, OOD, watch coordinator, etc, etc, etc) simply fu#ed up trying to show off to the civilian guests on board. Prior to going deep, so that they could demonstrate an emergency surface, a periscope and ESM search was conducted. However, the full search tactic was not adhered to (only a third of the look was completed) and the fishing boat was not seen, even though at that time she was just over 1 nm away! During the emergency surface the CO allowed civilians to sit at and operate several important controls (including the helm and ballast control panel)! The result, one fisheries training ship sunk with 9 dead (4 teenage students, 3 teachers and 2 crew).
I am not saying that the military of other nations do not make mistakes, but it is the way the US make theirs, usually by not following their own or the host nations rules and regulations. I have seen USAF aircraft bounce controlled airspace, ATZ's and MATZ's in the uk on numerous occassions. I have seen them close up whilst on instrument approaches to airfields in the frozen north, as they make their way, disregarding their surrounds, to a nearby weapons range. We have all seen 2 pilots killed because they apparently did not understand the type of service they were receiving from the host nations ATC. We have seen them shoot up friendly vehicles with clear coallition markings displayed (even making several attack runs on them), we have seen them shoot up friendly forces in a designated training areas after being told not to engage. As I said, our military are not perfect, but at least we read and understand the rules and regulations, ROE's, etc. If we make errors by not following the rules we end up deep in the s#!t.
MadMark!!!
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B SoUsa
The world would be horrified if the U.S. forces involved in tradgedies such as the ones mentioned were OVERJOYED (your words,not ours) but you have to accept that as a well equipped,highly mobile,heavily armed PROFESSIONAL fighting force the U.S. Military is shy & seriously lacking when it comes to accountability, investigating accidents and incidents (but more importantly ,for the reputation of the U.S as a whole,the safety of their allies and people under U.S. occupation) your system is failing to safeguard against these travesties happening again. We are Allies,Friends and a bit more than a "Single nation separated by a Common language" or 3000 miles of Ocean. We turned our backs on our neighbours because we believed you were right and we stood shoulder-to-shoulder with you.
And for the second time in successive conflicts we lost more servicemen to your Military's actions than the enemys'. Just because you are the biggest,it doesn't mean that you are the best. Start learning from your mistakes for all our sakes.
The world would be horrified if the U.S. forces involved in tradgedies such as the ones mentioned were OVERJOYED (your words,not ours) but you have to accept that as a well equipped,highly mobile,heavily armed PROFESSIONAL fighting force the U.S. Military is shy & seriously lacking when it comes to accountability, investigating accidents and incidents (but more importantly ,for the reputation of the U.S as a whole,the safety of their allies and people under U.S. occupation) your system is failing to safeguard against these travesties happening again. We are Allies,Friends and a bit more than a "Single nation separated by a Common language" or 3000 miles of Ocean. We turned our backs on our neighbours because we believed you were right and we stood shoulder-to-shoulder with you.
And for the second time in successive conflicts we lost more servicemen to your Military's actions than the enemys'. Just because you are the biggest,it doesn't mean that you are the best. Start learning from your mistakes for all our sakes.
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I want to pose a hypothetical scenerio to you and tell me how you think the US would react.
Imagine that Iran had a carrier battle group sit off the US shores in International waters, with complete legitemacy to being there and launched their full aircraft compliment for a normal daily flying routine.........how do you think the US Government would react to this?
I know the answer, as I am sure most worldly people do.
So why then does the US insist on doing it regularly on Iran's doorstep for no good reason whatsoever when south of their carrier group is hundereds of miles of international waters that would give no cause for concern to anyone. This is not to mention all of the major airways that they have launched through that feed the Europe-Asia market which causes no end of grief to the civil traffic and ATC trying to determine what is where and who's who amongst 50 targets that form a complete furball on the radar.
An unnecessary and provocative posture that only continues to feed the hostilities in this region, and lets face it there are enough of them already!
Imagine that Iran had a carrier battle group sit off the US shores in International waters, with complete legitemacy to being there and launched their full aircraft compliment for a normal daily flying routine.........how do you think the US Government would react to this?
I know the answer, as I am sure most worldly people do.
So why then does the US insist on doing it regularly on Iran's doorstep for no good reason whatsoever when south of their carrier group is hundereds of miles of international waters that would give no cause for concern to anyone. This is not to mention all of the major airways that they have launched through that feed the Europe-Asia market which causes no end of grief to the civil traffic and ATC trying to determine what is where and who's who amongst 50 targets that form a complete furball on the radar.
An unnecessary and provocative posture that only continues to feed the hostilities in this region, and lets face it there are enough of them already!
Well done to the MD-80 jock for averting a possible collision.
Sorry, have I got the wrong thread.............?
Sorry, have I got the wrong thread.............?
Last edited by Jobza Guddun; 22nd Sep 2003 at 01:22.