Jet dives to avoid another plane; 4 are hurt
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Jet dives to avoid another plane; 4 are hurt
Jet dives to avoid another plane; 4 are hurt
By KEN LEISER
Post-Dispatch
09/17/2003
At least four people were injured Tuesday when the crew of an American Airlines MD-80 took evasive action to avoid at least one other plane in the airspace just west of Tulsa, Okla.
There were 90 people on board American Airlines flight 490 from Oklahoma City to St. Louis when the plane's collision avoidance system warned of heavy traffic in the area and then ordered the crew to descend immediately, airline officials said.
The plane later landed without incident at Lambert Field about 3:50 p.m. But three flight attendants and one passenger, who wasn't wearing a seat belt at the time of the incident, requested medical attention.
Airline spokeswoman Julia Bishop-Cross said the captain told her that the plane's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System had warned the crew initially of heavy traffic. A short time later, the cockpit system ordered an immediate descent.
The captain told Bishop-Cross that he saw four military jets in the area after he made the 50- to 100-foot descent. It was not immediately known how close the planes were.
The collision-avoidance system operates independently of air traffic control on the ground and is considered a last line of defense against mid-air collisions. A Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said the incident was under investigation.
50-100 ft to avoid another plane???? Sounds like another distorter being confused.
By KEN LEISER
Post-Dispatch
09/17/2003
At least four people were injured Tuesday when the crew of an American Airlines MD-80 took evasive action to avoid at least one other plane in the airspace just west of Tulsa, Okla.
There were 90 people on board American Airlines flight 490 from Oklahoma City to St. Louis when the plane's collision avoidance system warned of heavy traffic in the area and then ordered the crew to descend immediately, airline officials said.
The plane later landed without incident at Lambert Field about 3:50 p.m. But three flight attendants and one passenger, who wasn't wearing a seat belt at the time of the incident, requested medical attention.
Airline spokeswoman Julia Bishop-Cross said the captain told her that the plane's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System had warned the crew initially of heavy traffic. A short time later, the cockpit system ordered an immediate descent.
The captain told Bishop-Cross that he saw four military jets in the area after he made the 50- to 100-foot descent. It was not immediately known how close the planes were.
The collision-avoidance system operates independently of air traffic control on the ground and is considered a last line of defense against mid-air collisions. A Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said the incident was under investigation.
50-100 ft to avoid another plane???? Sounds like another distorter being confused.
Niknak
Your either a troll looking for a reaction or you have no idea about how a TCAS works. Which would it be? If its the later, that can be fixed. If its the former then personality flaws will have to be worked out by others.
Your either a troll looking for a reaction or you have no idea about how a TCAS works. Which would it be? If its the later, that can be fixed. If its the former then personality flaws will have to be worked out by others.
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No such luck,West Coast.
The USAF has an atrocious record in the UK as far as airmisses go. Back in 1989 I had a near miss with an F1-11 from RAF Lakenheath over the Irish Sea. I could tell he was from Lakenheath because of the letters 'LN' on the tail. When I talked to the ATC Unit, they stated that they had attempted to contact the aircraft for 20 mins through various agencies but to no avail. In the end he had violated 3 Danger Areas, 2 Aerodrome Traffic Zones, a Military Air Traffic Zone, a Special Rules Zone connecting the UK mainland to the Offshore Gas Fields plus 3 seperate air-misses.
We never got an acknowledgement or apology and the pilot probably never even got a rap on the knuckles. But in the UK there's an incident every few months. The one niknak refers to involved a pair of F-15's and a B757 with over 240 pax and crew and, as with all the others, the USAF just trawl out the line
"We'll hold an internal inquiry" and nothing is ever heard about it again. They don't have a good reputation this side of the pond. Sorry.
The USAF has an atrocious record in the UK as far as airmisses go. Back in 1989 I had a near miss with an F1-11 from RAF Lakenheath over the Irish Sea. I could tell he was from Lakenheath because of the letters 'LN' on the tail. When I talked to the ATC Unit, they stated that they had attempted to contact the aircraft for 20 mins through various agencies but to no avail. In the end he had violated 3 Danger Areas, 2 Aerodrome Traffic Zones, a Military Air Traffic Zone, a Special Rules Zone connecting the UK mainland to the Offshore Gas Fields plus 3 seperate air-misses.
We never got an acknowledgement or apology and the pilot probably never even got a rap on the knuckles. But in the UK there's an incident every few months. The one niknak refers to involved a pair of F-15's and a B757 with over 240 pax and crew and, as with all the others, the USAF just trawl out the line
"We'll hold an internal inquiry" and nothing is ever heard about it again. They don't have a good reputation this side of the pond. Sorry.
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West Coast
Arguably one of the closest ever and potentially most catastrophic near misses in the UK was caused by the poor airmanship of a USAF pilot (also base commander I believe).
Whilst I agree niknak perhaps over plays things ... you really need to accept that the record on this side of the pond is occasionally a cause for concern. They don't stand out above any other group of pilots or operators, but the blind assertion that they can do no wrong, or that the USAF will 'take care of things' gives no cause for complacency or acceptance.
The thought of how close that p*lok came to wiping out 200+ people in the air and possibly on the ground still sends a shiver down my spine. I hope you guys have put him where he can do no further harm. Test pilot for Microsoft for example ??
In context however, he is an individual, and we all make mistakes.
Arguably one of the closest ever and potentially most catastrophic near misses in the UK was caused by the poor airmanship of a USAF pilot (also base commander I believe).
Whilst I agree niknak perhaps over plays things ... you really need to accept that the record on this side of the pond is occasionally a cause for concern. They don't stand out above any other group of pilots or operators, but the blind assertion that they can do no wrong, or that the USAF will 'take care of things' gives no cause for complacency or acceptance.
The thought of how close that p*lok came to wiping out 200+ people in the air and possibly on the ground still sends a shiver down my spine. I hope you guys have put him where he can do no further harm. Test pilot for Microsoft for example ??
In context however, he is an individual, and we all make mistakes.
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 18th Sep 2003 at 09:49.
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As to the USAF. I certainly agree they should get out of the UK, the UN, Iraq etc..........Let you folks have those places, it certainly costs me too much money.
I would prefer to bring them back home. BTW there is a bunch of scrap in Nevada that used to be RAF aircraft, take that back with you.....They seem to have left a lot of that during training here.
I would prefer to bring them back home. BTW there is a bunch of scrap in Nevada that used to be RAF aircraft, take that back with you.....They seem to have left a lot of that during training here.
Can any of you explain to me how any conclusion can be drawn to any degree of certainty that there was any culpability on the part of the flight of four aircraft? Niknak has it seems. The thread is about what happened over the central US, not Europe. If you know anything about the limitations of TCAS, flight regime of involved aircraft, etc then you would know to stay quiet. More information than what was provided in the story is required to make anything other than an uninformed opinion or a smarta$$ remark. Do you argue otherwise?
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West Coast - NikNak was after a reaction so congratulations. They do know about TCAS, its part of their job to - unfortunately much of its activation in the UK is against Military traffic, of which a large portion is USAF as we can't afford to get our own jets up... 
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Not only in UK it seems...
US APOLOGIZES TO ITALY -- US HELICOPTERS BUZZED BEACH
The United States has apologized to Italy after three US military helicopters swooped low over an Italian beach earlier this week, sending beach furniture flying and injuring five people.
The incident Tuesday over a crowded beach on Italy's southeastern coast triggered memories for Italians of 1998, when a US Marine jet flying low sliced a ski gondola's cables, killing 20 people on an Italian mountainside. Italian newspapers reported yesterday that US Ambassador Mel Sembler, after being contacted by the Italian defense minister, issued an apology and asked US military authorities to investigate the incident in Barletta.
The US Embassy was closed yesterday for Assumption Day, an official Italian holiday, and Embassy officials could not immediately be reached for comment.
Corriere della Sera said that the US Army helicopters, a pair of CH-47 Chinooks and a Blackhawk, were on a peacekeeping mission that began in Germany, and after two stops in Italy, was headed to Kosovo across the Adriatic.
The newspaper's account suggested the US pilots were trying to perform a stunt. "Maybe, after six hours of flight from Germany toward Bari, swooping low over the beach at Barletta, greeting from above the girls in bikinis, like in old action movies, seemed like fun to the American soldiers,'' Corriere della Sera said. "But in a country still marked by the tragedy of Cermis, even a summer stunt by a squadron in transit risks transforming itself into an international incident,'' the Milan daily said.
In the ski gondola tragedy at the Mount Cermis ski resort, 20 people plunged to their deaths after a Marine jet flew so low it sliced the gondola's cables. Both Italian and American investigators concluded that the EA-6B Prowler jet was flying too low and too fast.
A year after the accident, Italy and the United States reached an accord on tightening restrictions on low flights.
A prosecutor in northern Italy near Aviano said he was investigating whether the new flight restrictions were violated in the flight over Barletta. "We need to clarify whether it was a flight plan violation or if the pilots were authorized to fly that kind of overflight, which is prohibited by our laws,'' said Padua Prosecutor Sergio Dini.
US APOLOGIZES TO ITALY -- US HELICOPTERS BUZZED BEACH
The United States has apologized to Italy after three US military helicopters swooped low over an Italian beach earlier this week, sending beach furniture flying and injuring five people.
The incident Tuesday over a crowded beach on Italy's southeastern coast triggered memories for Italians of 1998, when a US Marine jet flying low sliced a ski gondola's cables, killing 20 people on an Italian mountainside. Italian newspapers reported yesterday that US Ambassador Mel Sembler, after being contacted by the Italian defense minister, issued an apology and asked US military authorities to investigate the incident in Barletta.
The US Embassy was closed yesterday for Assumption Day, an official Italian holiday, and Embassy officials could not immediately be reached for comment.
Corriere della Sera said that the US Army helicopters, a pair of CH-47 Chinooks and a Blackhawk, were on a peacekeeping mission that began in Germany, and after two stops in Italy, was headed to Kosovo across the Adriatic.
The newspaper's account suggested the US pilots were trying to perform a stunt. "Maybe, after six hours of flight from Germany toward Bari, swooping low over the beach at Barletta, greeting from above the girls in bikinis, like in old action movies, seemed like fun to the American soldiers,'' Corriere della Sera said. "But in a country still marked by the tragedy of Cermis, even a summer stunt by a squadron in transit risks transforming itself into an international incident,'' the Milan daily said.
In the ski gondola tragedy at the Mount Cermis ski resort, 20 people plunged to their deaths after a Marine jet flew so low it sliced the gondola's cables. Both Italian and American investigators concluded that the EA-6B Prowler jet was flying too low and too fast.
A year after the accident, Italy and the United States reached an accord on tightening restrictions on low flights.
A prosecutor in northern Italy near Aviano said he was investigating whether the new flight restrictions were violated in the flight over Barletta. "We need to clarify whether it was a flight plan violation or if the pilots were authorized to fly that kind of overflight, which is prohibited by our laws,'' said Padua Prosecutor Sergio Dini.
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Sounds strange to me....
The TCAS does not warn of heavy traffic. Period.
For the software in our Airline, it will only guarantee a display of traffic out to 7 miles, although it MAY display targets out to 40 NM.
When traffic gets close, you get a aural warning and the target goes from white to yellow.
When the TCAS senses a trajectory of both aircraft colliding, it issues a Resolution Advisory to each of the aircraft. The target goes from yellow to red, and aural commands are given such as Descend, Descend, and a red rectangle appears on the ADI indicating the pitch required for the traffic resolution.
In our flite manual it says that any pitch changes should be slow, and not be felt by the passengers.
Sounds to me like someone tried to make the Resolution Advisory into a strafing run.
The TCAS does not warn of heavy traffic. Period.
For the software in our Airline, it will only guarantee a display of traffic out to 7 miles, although it MAY display targets out to 40 NM.
When traffic gets close, you get a aural warning and the target goes from white to yellow.
When the TCAS senses a trajectory of both aircraft colliding, it issues a Resolution Advisory to each of the aircraft. The target goes from yellow to red, and aural commands are given such as Descend, Descend, and a red rectangle appears on the ADI indicating the pitch required for the traffic resolution.
In our flite manual it says that any pitch changes should be slow, and not be felt by the passengers.
Sounds to me like someone tried to make the Resolution Advisory into a strafing run.
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B Sousa
Though some threads have to be taken with a pinch of salt, the replies on this one seem to be based on some evidence?
Whereas yours just seems to be a slating of the world at large partially the UK?
Like you I would like all troops to go back to where they belong (home) but only because the world could then be at peace (feel free to hold up candles), do not slate your apparent brothers in arms for no reason, unless you have some agenda you are working towards?
It is after all a pilots forum not a political one...
Though some threads have to be taken with a pinch of salt, the replies on this one seem to be based on some evidence?
Whereas yours just seems to be a slating of the world at large partially the UK?
Like you I would like all troops to go back to where they belong (home) but only because the world could then be at peace (feel free to hold up candles), do not slate your apparent brothers in arms for no reason, unless you have some agenda you are working towards?
It is after all a pilots forum not a political one...
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A-V-8R: Whilst I agree that TCAS doesn't explicitly warn of 'heavy traffic,' if the unit gave several TAs in short succession, it is in effect warning of such a condition.
I was under the impression that TCAS attempts to resolve conflicts with 300ft of vertical separation (I stand to be corrected), in which case this particular corrrespondent can't really be accused of hyperbole.
Regards,
BGPM.
50-100 ft to avoid another plane???? Sounds like another distorter being confused.
Regards,
BGPM.
I call you back
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This is just an observation but as someone who has flown a lot in both UK and US airspace I find it difficult to see an argument blaming the USAF for the majority of TCAS warnings in either country.
In the US the powerful general aviation lobby ensures the us professionals get regular Ta/Ra alerts from lost low hour souls. In the UK this also happens but to a lesser extent. While I have had an airmiss with a dopey A-10 jockey most of the problems are due to very congested airspace around London, e.g. going in and out of LCY.
In conclusion I don't think it is quite fair to indentify USAF as the only culprits, I am just one poor descision away from being a culprit myself.
In the US the powerful general aviation lobby ensures the us professionals get regular Ta/Ra alerts from lost low hour souls. In the UK this also happens but to a lesser extent. While I have had an airmiss with a dopey A-10 jockey most of the problems are due to very congested airspace around London, e.g. going in and out of LCY.
In conclusion I don't think it is quite fair to indentify USAF as the only culprits, I am just one poor descision away from being a culprit myself.
Gatvol
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YYZ writes:B Sousa
Though some threads have to be taken with a pinch of salt, the replies on this one seem to be based on some evidence?
Whereas yours just seems to be a slating of the world at large partially the UK?
Like you I would like all troops to go back to where they belong (home) but only because the world could then be at peace (feel free to hold up candles), do not slate your apparent brothers in arms for no reason, unless you have some agenda you are working towards?
It is after all a pilots forum not a political one...
Yes The U.S. guys do get in a bit of trouble once in a while. It happens that way when you have so many of them all over the world trying to sort out all the Sh*t places and problems. I do think it would be much easier if all the U.S. folks stayed at home for a while. Maybe just to watch what happens when they are not out getting in trouble, buzzing beaches etc.
Agenda?? Personally I think that other countries should pick up the load, and if they dont so be it....The mess is still on the other side of the pond and most of the players are not or would not be a threat to us if we would tighten things up here a bit. We could concentrate more on getting the mess We have here in the states cleaned up.
Same game as fifty years ago, they buzzed the beaches etc and its a good thing or you would be spending Deutschemarks instead of Euros.
Though some threads have to be taken with a pinch of salt, the replies on this one seem to be based on some evidence?
Whereas yours just seems to be a slating of the world at large partially the UK?
Like you I would like all troops to go back to where they belong (home) but only because the world could then be at peace (feel free to hold up candles), do not slate your apparent brothers in arms for no reason, unless you have some agenda you are working towards?
It is after all a pilots forum not a political one...
Yes The U.S. guys do get in a bit of trouble once in a while. It happens that way when you have so many of them all over the world trying to sort out all the Sh*t places and problems. I do think it would be much easier if all the U.S. folks stayed at home for a while. Maybe just to watch what happens when they are not out getting in trouble, buzzing beaches etc.
Agenda?? Personally I think that other countries should pick up the load, and if they dont so be it....The mess is still on the other side of the pond and most of the players are not or would not be a threat to us if we would tighten things up here a bit. We could concentrate more on getting the mess We have here in the states cleaned up.
Same game as fifty years ago, they buzzed the beaches etc and its a good thing or you would be spending Deutschemarks instead of Euros.
B. Sousa: Right, and if Iraq had been indebted to the US (or to some US companies) for a few hundred million dollars (as was the case with at least two of our major NATO partner$), then it would have been very difficult for our govt to have been objective in its views. Can the Pprune managers create a symbol for the euro which is like our good old $?
Is it a bit odd that Saddam's attacks on hundreds of own people in the 80's using terrible chemicals (mass destruction potential?) have been so conveniently forgotten? Maybe those well-documented attacks using mustard gas, or whatever nasty products, never actually took place...
But back to the main topic.
Is it a bit odd that Saddam's attacks on hundreds of own people in the 80's using terrible chemicals (mass destruction potential?) have been so conveniently forgotten? Maybe those well-documented attacks using mustard gas, or whatever nasty products, never actually took place...
But back to the main topic.
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On the contrary Ignition Override and B SoUsa oh, and Baterprat
The vast majority of the Iraqi's probably think that they've swapped one set of murdering bastards for another. It just goes to show that when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of a conqered nation, the U.S. military has learned nothing since the My Lai massacre. I mean,guys, when you got to Baghdad, what was the first major facility to be secured by the invading forces? The City Hospital?, The Power Distribution Network? The Water Supply system? Saddam's Houses and Palaces? The various and numerous Military HQ's? NO!! It was the Iraqi Oil Ministry! And they wonder why the Iraqi's and the Rest of the World are suspicious of their motives!!!
Anyway back to the thread....
A little feedback from the "guests" concerning results of the investigations of airspace and separation violaters would go a long way to restoring confidence in their abilities. Since this thread began, I've contacted a few friends and former colleagues who now investigate these incidents in the UKCAA and MoD(albeit somewhat restricted by the "guests") and one frightening re-occuring theme is that the"guests" never seem to initiate avoiding action.The main defence that keeps re-appearing in the statements read is
"...we didn't see them on radar.."
What ever happened to Mark1 Eyeball and listening to ATC?
One "consolation" is that apparently it's even worse on the continent.
As for the Beach Fly-by...
"IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!!" So what part of "IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!"is not getting through to you,Boys and Girls?
The vast majority of the Iraqi's probably think that they've swapped one set of murdering bastards for another. It just goes to show that when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of a conqered nation, the U.S. military has learned nothing since the My Lai massacre. I mean,guys, when you got to Baghdad, what was the first major facility to be secured by the invading forces? The City Hospital?, The Power Distribution Network? The Water Supply system? Saddam's Houses and Palaces? The various and numerous Military HQ's? NO!! It was the Iraqi Oil Ministry! And they wonder why the Iraqi's and the Rest of the World are suspicious of their motives!!!
Anyway back to the thread....
A little feedback from the "guests" concerning results of the investigations of airspace and separation violaters would go a long way to restoring confidence in their abilities. Since this thread began, I've contacted a few friends and former colleagues who now investigate these incidents in the UKCAA and MoD(albeit somewhat restricted by the "guests") and one frightening re-occuring theme is that the"guests" never seem to initiate avoiding action.The main defence that keeps re-appearing in the statements read is
"...we didn't see them on radar.."
What ever happened to Mark1 Eyeball and listening to ATC?
One "consolation" is that apparently it's even worse on the continent.
As for the Beach Fly-by...
"IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!!" So what part of "IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!"is not getting through to you,Boys and Girls?
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Pontious -
A few years ago, despite UK and US Military Topo maps being marked with warnings of intense movements on many small airfields with parachuting and microlights and light aircraft, a pair of Bentwaters A-10's managed to appear at 250 agl on the centreline of Long Marstons main runway, scattering light aircraft as they went. As anyone flying light aircraft knows in the UK the whole of the UK seems to be a low leval area for the USAF. Less of a problem now that the A-10's/Bentwaters have left but what with that and trigger happy Blue on Blue incidents whenever the US is in a battle maybe their primary Geography lessons should include maps that prove the area outside the USA contains human beings and aircraft.
B J - happy flying light aircraft
A few years ago, despite UK and US Military Topo maps being marked with warnings of intense movements on many small airfields with parachuting and microlights and light aircraft, a pair of Bentwaters A-10's managed to appear at 250 agl on the centreline of Long Marstons main runway, scattering light aircraft as they went. As anyone flying light aircraft knows in the UK the whole of the UK seems to be a low leval area for the USAF. Less of a problem now that the A-10's/Bentwaters have left but what with that and trigger happy Blue on Blue incidents whenever the US is in a battle maybe their primary Geography lessons should include maps that prove the area outside the USA contains human beings and aircraft.
B J - happy flying light aircraft
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I will say one thing here....
"Due Regard" (FAA Order 7210.3, 5-3-5)
For those familiar with it (especially in the Middle East area of operations) you will know how insane a concept it is and more worrying is that it is promulgated specifically for the American Military aircraft to basically fly wherever they want and by whatever means necessary.
Taking that into account we have on a very regular basis, airliner traffic and other miliatary traffic (as the Brits found out at the height of Afghanistan) being placed in dangerous situations by the random and unauthodox operations of the US forces. Every other Air Force in the world can comply with International ATC procedures in this and surrounding airspace in peacetime and wartime, so why not them.
I am completely miffed as to why the US needs special SOP's that are so dangerous and non-conformal.
Perhaps it should be "Due Dis-regard!"
"Due Regard" (FAA Order 7210.3, 5-3-5)
For those familiar with it (especially in the Middle East area of operations) you will know how insane a concept it is and more worrying is that it is promulgated specifically for the American Military aircraft to basically fly wherever they want and by whatever means necessary.
Taking that into account we have on a very regular basis, airliner traffic and other miliatary traffic (as the Brits found out at the height of Afghanistan) being placed in dangerous situations by the random and unauthodox operations of the US forces. Every other Air Force in the world can comply with International ATC procedures in this and surrounding airspace in peacetime and wartime, so why not them.
I am completely miffed as to why the US needs special SOP's that are so dangerous and non-conformal.
Perhaps it should be "Due Dis-regard!"
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Ignition
The Euro symbol is a piece of cake, just hold down the <Alt> key and type "0128" on a DOS machine and, viola! €€€€€€€
Pounds can be done similarly using <Alt> "0163" = £!
And you can make a sideways jellyfish with <Alt>"0140" Œ
Ain't computers fun!
Cheers!
M2
PowerPoint ÜberWarrior
Over 4000 slides made
The Euro symbol is a piece of cake, just hold down the <Alt> key and type "0128" on a DOS machine and, viola! €€€€€€€
Pounds can be done similarly using <Alt> "0163" = £!
And you can make a sideways jellyfish with <Alt>"0140" Œ
Ain't computers fun!
Cheers!
M2
PowerPoint ÜberWarrior
Over 4000 slides made
Union Goon
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In fairness to the chopper pilots, that is a VERY long flight for them and every 1000 feet of altitudereduces Vne by several knots, from a pathetically low number to start with when you are going cross country.
But again, as in all complaints about the US military. The solution is VERY SIMPLE. Start taxing yourself and providing your own manpower, and equipting your forces so you can do the job yourself. Nothing would make America happier.
Cheers
Wino
But again, as in all complaints about the US military. The solution is VERY SIMPLE. Start taxing yourself and providing your own manpower, and equipting your forces so you can do the job yourself. Nothing would make America happier.
Cheers
Wino