We all know what Emirates publishes and what they actually get are two different items.
Recruitment Dept says they are looking for 100 DECs which probably means more like 150 S#$%s. There is no way they are going to find 150 TREs but they will have no problem finding 150 narrow body domestic pilots from very dodgey airlines.
This is ahsame because this will delay the hard working and long oppressed Emirates FOs command by at least a year and more like two years if they go for 150 DECs.
Don't give us the Pravda line of Emirates has always hired DECs. That may be true but it goes without saying that we don't need DECs and just goes to show you what kind of company we are working (slaving) for.

Enlighten me, please
 

So Emirates is a terrible place to work for, according to some of the F/Os. Even then they are desperate for an upgrade in that !!!!e airline.

Low cost drivers can't have it anymore and are looking for sunnier skies and some perks in the desert.

Westeners in Asia dream to come back to the west civilization, but jobs here are scarce and pay little.

So, if Emirates, Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizzair, Airberlin, etc are all rubish, what should we do? Be born again (german) and try Lufthansa?

Or maybe we could stop moaning and help other colleagues to find greener pastures, instead of hoping that they will all fail in their assessments!

so, in one sentence, you want to "calm" your senior fos by putting them in their place of gear operator, but want others to help you find greener pastures.
Try that answer on the assesment, nobody has to hope for anything.

The Don

Is English not your first language as well by any chance?

You say you have nothing to loose. Is that nothing to lose or perhaps nothing too loose?:D

Fair cop Gov.

The Don

So Fueler you want us to help you jump the senority list and at the same time prevent or delay us in getting our commands when again there is absolutly no need for "pilots" like you? Get in line.
You obviously are working at a dodgey airline. Your talent level will show in the interview and lucky for us we will not have to fly with Gems like you.

Swan Man I really don't get your logic saying that they will have no problem getting DEC's from very dodgy airlines. Is it that you see narrowbody domestic airlines as being dodgy? Why?

Do you mean the likes of Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz, Air Berlin, etc. (Even though all of these are international carriers).

Please tell me i'm misinterpreting what you said.

Swan man, you are the type of senior F/O that I was referring to a few posts ago! For you I have just two words: Gear Down!!!

As per my job I'm pretty happy at the moment, thank you! Don't worry that I'll not delay your upgrade. But by what I read here about EK TREs you have no chance since all your brain seems to be burnt by the desert sun!

Good luck to you anyway.

And he will need it I would suspect. Some people will never sit in the left hand seat of anything apart form a Cessna 152 or something similar.

Swan Man you fit the bill on paper.

I am sick of these narrow body pilots from crap airlines telling me what to do. I came from a airline before I got laid off that paid its stewardress' more than most of you narrow body captains at the dodegy airlines you come form and they work less day than your 20 plus days a month you do. What are you guys thinking with your hourly wages and your 8 days off a month?
The reason you have your commands is your working at such bad airlines that no one wants to work there. Can you blame anyone for not wanting to do what you do? And now you want to jump the line and tell us how great you are? If you were great as you think you are you would not be slaving at the airlines we all know you come from.

Perhaps I wasn't being offensive enough to get noticed on the previous page, but there are probably 50 or 60 guys at the Goat applying for the position, never mind Ryanair, these guys have all the requirements including widebody plus are already ME based. Is the poaching agreement in place? I hear it has been dropped but not from any reliable source. DEC is the norm here and no one bothers, just part of the expansion process, and before I get shot down I've been there myself, not pleasant but as they say, 'what to do?'

Varmint - well said.

f

When was the last lot of DEC hired at EK...2007/2008, its not that long ago. There was plenty of discussion about this, and lots of mention of how the then FO community was being bypassed. But still you decided to join. The only thing that is different now, is that it may cause you a delay and not someone else.

Minibus FOs have been bypassed for years by their Boeing comrades and the junior guys give no thought to jumping the list in this case. But that's somehow different right?

To claim that only dodgy pilots from dodgy operations would apply to be DEC at EK makes me wonder where you came from if you decided to give up the left seat to come here as an FO. This argument makes no sense.

We use to think that the hiring of DECs in the past would stop FOs from applying here. It didn't, you all applied and took the job when offered. If you look at the foum about interview info for EK you will find people willing to sell their grandmothers to come here. Once the do arrive, we will have to wait 3yrs or so until the Big Shiny Jet Syndrome starts to wear off them and they too complain about DECs.

At least we got our leave...oh wait there, no we didn't.

The Don

Just look at EK's history. Look at the seniority list and show me where we have EVER had a big batch of DEC's???? There is one here, 2 there, 1 here etc etc.

1. They have NEVER hired DEC's in large quantities!!

2. The company has publically said that the DEC program was considered a failure. The ones that made it are good but there were a large number of failures. It was costly.

3. From what I have heard (not fact) they will likely hire 30-40 DEC's , at most, to cover a 'gap' in the seniority list. I would also guess as a means to get some of the contract trainers on board.

4. Those DEC's will ALL have WB command - especially if it is only 30 pilots!

So while it may not be fair, it is the way at EK. In any case, I doubt it will be more than a slight blip on the upgrade progression.

For the guys from Ryan Air etc who came as FO's I highly doubt any of your former collegues will be hired as DEC's and 'jump' you. There are enough WB commanders and NB Captains at local (Middle East companies with their regional experience) to take the limited spots.

I've posted before about my own experience. I'm now a short haul, narrow body captain (well the a/c is narrow body anyway!) but was previously a long haul wide body captain. I gave up the long haul so I could see more of my kids. I know many others who have done the same for various reasons. It is not difficult to go back to long haul and the recent posts suggesting otherwise and referring to 'cr*p short haul pilots' show incredible arrogance.

I also know at least one guy who joined EK having been a captain and they only took him on as a F/O even though they were then recruiting DEC's - so perhaps not all are as outstanding as Swan Man and Varmint believe.

Friends within once suggested many years ago that I join EK as an F/O as with my experience I would get back to the LHS within 2 years or so. I gave it some thought but most people I know who have voluntarily stepped from the LHS to the RHS to join another airline, have had to wait longer than forecast to get their command back. I didn't do it as there are too many variables within our industry beyond our control.

If you were a captain and joined as a F/O more fool you!

For the record i am not applying myself.

To all EK FO
 

Trader......

Over 100 DEC's in 2004.

Maybe you weren't here then, but no one missed out on an upgrade and most of the guys were good people with good experience.

Fact - 150+ DECs... But less than 180...

Not WB, but 3,000 hrs command on glass over 50 tonnes...

Them's the facts!!!

WK
 

You're right on spot.:ok:

So White Knight, I know you have been around for some time.

After your previous post; did you feel important? Or were you just giving in to your narcisism.

Why would EK be in the need of some contract TRE's?

How many pictures did you take of yourself on your black horse?

Called up a friend in EK who's been there for almost 20 years. He has some insight in the recruitment process and according to him no FOs in EK with the required hours will be delayed in their upgrade.
The company had two options, lower their requirements for upgrade within or open for DECs. Right or wrong, they choose the latter.

And, why are you all focusing on the "narrowbody" pilots? The 50 tons is a minimum. I'm sure there are lots of guys with wb time that will be interested. I've met guys here in Singapore with thousands of 777 and/or 744 command hours that are interested. Swan man and cerbus, do you consider SIA a "!!!!e" or a "dodgy" airline as well?

DEC
 

guess all you current FOs when eventually get your CMD in EK and after a couple of years perhaps want to move on will be applying for FO positions as you think its wrong to go direct DEC,can understand your frustration but thats life:

Bite the bullet boys, pilots in many other companies have had to accept this for years in a row now. This is part of modern day aviation and with a worldwide shortage of pilots looming, DEC is here to stay.

I know your management told you that DEC hiring is open till December 2013 ( something like that) , let's wait and see:E

There are no rules in love and war.

The sense of entitlement & arrogance that some of the obviously aggrieved F/O's have displayed in their posts is astounding! You would think that they are some sort of aviation royalty!

Nobody is entitled to a command. All anyone is entitled to is the chance to attempt the upgrade, once they meet the individual airline's criteria. And there is no evidence that the EK decision to, once again, take DEC's is going to deny anyone that chance. In fact, there seems to be evidence that the opposite is true.

Ek appears to be taking DEC's only because there are not enough F/O's who meet the upgrade requirements & a significant number of those who do have failed some stage of the interview or training.

I find it interesting that some posters here have been at pains to assert that the flying that EK does is too demanding for narrow body DEC's to handle yet, almost in the same breath, espouse the lowering of the upgrade criteria in order to make greater numbers of current EK F/O's eligible for the upgrade. Do they think that sitting in the right seat for a few short years, experiencing the various routes that EK flies on, make them more competent to command an EK flight than a fresh narrow body DEC? EK obviously doesn't think so, or they would give their DEC's more route training than they give the intake F/O's.

I must say that the elitist rhetoric about how it is such a big step from a narrow body to a wide body is starting to wear a little thin. It is arguable that a WB is actually easier to operate than a NB. Any reasonably competent pilot can make the transition without a lot of difficulty. Perhaps they are just trying to convince themselves that they are superior because they have a WB endorsement on the license.

I joined EK as a DEC off a narrow body aircraft, with very little international experience. While I had to put the hard work & preparation in, I found the transition no more difficult than my initial command upgrade training. I find the "F/O babysitting the DEC" comments offensive & delusional, to say the least. I have had to 'babysit' dozens more F/O's over my time here at EK than have ever babysat me.

F/O's who -
- think it is OK to bust STAR altitude constraints by 200 - 300 feet,
- think an ATC speed instruction is advisory, not mandatory,
- think that, despite having alternate fuel in the tanks, it is acceptable to hold at DESDI until minimum fuel for DXB, declare an emergancy & then continue to DXB,
- don't know how long INTER & TEMPO last for,
- don't know what BECMG means & how it is applied,
- don't look at the validity times of a notam & wade through a long & totally irrelevant one, only to miss the next one, which is relevant,
- who don't look at the weather & notams for all the ETOPS airports before finishing the briefing,
- don't listen to the radio & have very little situational awareness regarding what is happening around them,
- call 'positive climb' when the main gear are still on the runway,
- make a suggestion & when you tell them no & why, just go ahead & do it anyway,
- perform the 'MCP finger ballet' on approach because they have very little idea of what they need to achieve with the aircraft & have no idea on how to achieve it,
- call on a frequency over & over again when they are too far away to get a response, stepping on everyone else in the process, & then make disparaging remarks when they hear someone else do the same thing 10 minutes later,
- loudly make an SOP callout while ATC are transmitting to you, because they have no idea of priorities.

I could go on.

If you guys spent just a fraction of the time & energy on doing your current job well, as you spend on denigrating DEC's & going on about what you feel you are entitled to, you would probably have a much smoother transition when your upgrade eventually comes along.

Mr takingover

I have only one question for you.
Does an ETOPS alternate require ATS or ATC?

Now look it up in your EK manuals and you will see that EK does not know how to despatch a twin.

The BEST description yet!

Love it :ok:

EK FO's think they are can pass the upgrade with ease and EK knows what the pass rate is and will be ( going down ) and do not have enough to fill the manpower plan. DEC's are needed to fill in the gap. Someone mentioned TRI/TRE's i believe that is mainly for the 330 as to bridge the transfer to the 380

How it relates to the discussion.....well.....my post was a reaction to “Mr takeingover” who has an opinion on the EK FO's being ready or not for the LHS.
He puts this in the context of the DEC discussion.
My question to him is in fact directly related to the whole EK training department. DEC is their decision. In this context they should reflect also on themselves.
You can look at all various parameters and criticise your FO on his professionalism with regards to flight preparation.
But what is the point to check if an alternate is suitable or not if you do not know if you can actually use it?
So what is it ATS or ATC? How does EK despatch from SIN to MEL?
Do they need a DEC to come and explain that to them too?

Aww come on Takingover (does the name suggest a personality trait?) I wasn't THAT bad, besides, we have cat 3b, why do want to look at that estops stuff?
As for an INTER, that's just oztranauts trying to be cleverer. All the buttons and switches can get a bit confusing though, luckily my arse is usually so numb from the cripple 7 seat, my brain won't function properly anyway. "Mumbai Mumbai do you read?"

Sittingidly I will never defend the DEC policy. All deliveries this year have been known about for years. That the managers could not recognise that stopping recruitment in 2008 would one day bite, or that they can not plan ahead effectively re manpower needs is nothing new. They sacrifice our days off and leave at a whim to fix their lack of planning, and the DEC hiring now is for the same reasons as last time. Managers care only for their own short term gain (bonus) and have no interest in career development of their pilots. This is why all the hard questions are answered with "If you don't like it leave!".
The difference now is that present FOs new this could happen when they joined. If it was considered ok that FOs were being shafted by DEC hiring when they joined, why should it be different now? The DEC option has been on the recruiting web page, although not active, since the last DEC was recruited. This policy is no secret.
As I mentioned before this new command and transfer policy shafts new minibus captains, and some maxibus FOs. It is great for new joining FOs on the minibus, and minibus FOs who lacked the experience to go 380, as they will now get a command prior to their more experienced course mates who were forced to the 380 "for operational reasons".

The Don

sittingidly

Bullseye post.

The job of Airline pilot is completely ****** up. Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.

It would put some more sensible individuals in the system.


Now "Mr takingover" .... if you want to play little capt knows it all, then lets just do just that.


What about wind limitations for alternate airports ?
Does the gust count or not?
How is crosswind capability determined?
What margin is build into it?


You see flying is more than just learning a few rules, but unfortunately that is what the whole thing has turned into.

Gents, all this bickering back and forth serves absolutely no purpose.

When current FO's start leaving in droves because the company craps on them by hiring DEC's, and when the company can't recruit new FO's, that's when things will change...

Until then, either accept it or vote with your feet.

"When current FO's start leaving in droves "


To go where? This has been said before and never happened , but good luck to those who do leave ( for another FO postion of course ). EK knows whats out there, they will not change or react . When you say droves how many of the 1600 FO's will that be?

Emirates use DEC probably because it is cheaper than upgrade an FO. It is faster also. If you upgrade an FO you need to form an other FO. 2 courses. Probably some FO are suitable for upgrade and some are not. It is normal in any company that some FO even that they qualify they fail upgrade courses.

The real thing is that emirates can hire DEC legally if they want. And you know it. The problem is not a narrow body Capt DEC. They are qualified. It is a more relaxed job than 20 days on the field. If you attack them is pilot against pilot. Poor against poor. The problem is management.

Pitch Up Authority
You have got to be kidding ! !
" Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system "

What a sad man you are - Irrespective of what seat you're in you must be a bundle of fun to fly with.

Talkingover,........ you sound like a 'joy' to fly with

Well fatbus, back to your own home country for example... unless you're a local. You know... unions, real legal system, etc.

Can't or don't want to go back? Then quit complaining and suck it up.

No offense, but I am so sick of pilots bitching on here and not willing to do anything about it. What can you do about it? Vote with your feet. Can't or won't vote with your feet? Well... too bad.

Remember, it is the company's prerogative to hire DEC's, to violate the so-called seniority at their whim because in the UAE, seniority as a union concept doesn't really mean anything if the management feels like changing it.

I just hope that prospective new joiners pay close attention to this whether they're prospective DEC or FO, and make appropriate choices. Coming into any Middle Eastern airline as an FO, you need to be prepared to be a career FO... you are at the mercy of the management who can change the rules on you at any time, and are not obligated to provide you with an upgrade opportunity. If you are OK with that and still choose to come here, and I don't mean just EK, but truly any Middle East airline.... welcome habibi! Enjoy the ride, but don't come complaining to me when you don't get upgraded. You knew the rules at joining...

Firstly I'm not complaining as it has no impact on my plans, I could care less. I'm just plain tired of listening to FO's constantly bitch, if they leave it makes no difference to me.

DEC's are not new.

Like I said already , EK has been through this before with people saying "just wait til they start leaving in big numbers" and it never happened. How many of the 1600 + FO's are going to go back to where they came from?

I'm not a company guy, far from it, but the reality is once you are here ,they have you, period. Just have a look at how few have left in the last 12 months.

Once you are a contract pilot you give up all those protections you refer to, if you cant deal with that , then stay where you are.

If you ( becareful) start the leaving in droves ,all I say is good luck.

I somewhat agree with above post except this, and its relevant :

We all knew coming here...fair play is not ingrained in the culture...it's 'objective'/'target' driven.

We also know that in the long run the former will get you better results than the latter. But that takes years of precedence, education & foresight. Western managers have it local über bosses don't . Not their fault, they just haven't being doing 'it' long enough. It being 'the civilized world'...i.e living in tents 40 years ago when Concorde was been flown across the Atlantic...so to my point.

The EK experience is an exercise in body blows...e.g altercation with other driver, mgt, neighbor, training dept etc...some guys have more than others through happenstance others through their own decision making...each blow is a step closer to the exit.

The Reintroduction of DECs is one of those blows that will leave a bruise that will ultimately lead to new skippers in the future leaving for big contact money is Asia

Obviously no one can predict the numerics but I believe the unknown consequence of this decision by the company will ultimately cost them in the long run.. I'm a skipper so I'm past it ..but it's still a kick in the balls (and yes I have DEC mates) because of some of the excellent FOs I have flown with who actually meet the DEC req's but not the FCI's

So to the guys in the RHS...let Karma take care of this one ...It never fails...stay professional & unemotional (as 95% of you always do) get your Type, make that mental note of how you are valued...and act accordingly in the future.

Respectfully,

f