Not certain that's true, 777. The last year was pretty horendous in terms of training, and they stuck to not hiring DECs. they really won't unless they feel their is no alternative.

They have certainly looked at DE SFEs, SFIs and FCTIs, and possibly TREs, but line DECs will be resisted if possible.

I won't venture into the debate on whether EK should recruit DEC's. The subject has been exhausted in the past. The bottom line is that if EK needs DEC's they will surely recruit DEC's whether it goes down well or not. EK is a business venture and at the end of the day their agenda is to be profitable and not let planes parked on the Tarmac.

Wizofoz they surely have resisted to date but at what cost? Can they possibly maintain this status quo?

IMHO, I don't think the status quo can be maintained for much longer, especially on the Bus (not that the 777 guys are getting a better deal)

When they do DEC 's again and for those that come as DEC's rememeber that you will be at the bottom of the Capt list even when you are in you top bid group. You will remain there for a very long time if not forever.Past DEC's did not realize that and complained and got nowhere.
If there is @ 1000 Capts you will be 1001 there is now a @1000 FO's and each and everyone of those FO's are senior to you and when they upgrade they go above you.

DECs
 

We all forget (EK) is a biz institution, they can do what ever deems necessary to ensure profitability, like wise, we walk away when a better deal becomes available. It's business, some DO NOT like understand that, I left EK to JQ. :ok:

same same with FO's

same same with FO's

so where's the difference?

@fatbus
It's not the best idea to discourage DEC's to come (bid-priority), it's way more effective to discourage FO's to come.
No more FO's -> birds grounded -> no more DEC's needed.

It's supply and demand.

By the way, it's not very reasonable to bring up the quality issue, as long as we have to read too many of those moronic ASR's from the homebred teams ....
(no HF with Mumbai, full Flaps at 1450ft, and so forth)

I'm not trying to discourage them to come, just trying to provide some valid info. TC said pilots will not restrict the expansion of this airline so I don't see any AC being parked.It really makes no difference to me. As some have said EK will do what ever it wants, the altest is very junior AB FO's (only 330 not MFF ) going to the 380 because of a hugh manpower problem on the 340.Those FO's will upgrade on the 380 when the time comes, while the MMF AB FO's dont know what they will upgrade on,330/350/380. If I was a 340 FO I would be very pi$$ed off right now.

Glofish, fatbus provided food for thought with a very informative statement which is very true. It wasn't the first time some DEC's were assigned two 9 day trips to down under and NZ in a month (within a 15 day period, basically meaning in a row which just a day or two off in between)

Catch 22 !!
 

In such a tight-lipped industry we operate in its hilarious how "someone has heard"...,"announcement to come next week"...,"DEC's coming"..., etc. Maybe it might happen, maybe not, but have a look at the endless possibilities:

Where are they going to come from? (assuming that the requirements set will be wide body command time) China expats make double what we make, so I really can't see them coming from there. Lots of Euro capts have come recently and failed FO interviews here, so unless they are coming from retired positions in KLM, AF, speedbird, QF... I don't see the pass rate being great at all!

Younger FOs with 2500 hrs will continue to flood in from everywhere with the dreams of flying something big but I'm pretty sure higher hour boys and girls will stop. So in a few years, since we'll have a majority of low hour FOs, the company would have only two choices for upgrade; lowering the requirements again or higher more DECs to cover the lack of 'suitably qualified FOs'.

Recently I heard that a friend of mine who applied to EK failed to pass the interview. I was really surprised as this guy is a highly qualified Captain and has over 11,000 hours Airbus time in his pocket. He is only 42 yrs old and was a former military fast jet pilot. A truly gentleman in all aspects.

Maybe I am wrong, but this does not make any sense to me. What kind of professionals are EK looking for at the moment? Just good talkers? Someone who already knows by heart the whole screening process?

So why is so many people at EK (supposedly FOs) so concerned about this DEC polemic?

Fatbus says we have a "hugh" problem!
 

What is a "hugh"?

busav8r...You never know when it comes to an interview. I have had the best applicant on paper come across as so arrogant that there was no way I would give the guy a job.

DECs will be a bad move if EK does indeed go ahead with them. The last batch was a complete disaster and everyone knows it even Wizo. He says the failure rate was over 20% but I strongly suspect that number is a little low.
Who is going to come to Emirates as a current and qualified widebody international captain? the last time all we got was narrowbody domestic pilots. Yes I know there were a few CP or BA double dippers but very few as a %.
Plus Emirates is currently scrapping the bottom of the barrel of qualifed FOs. If they do hire DECs what is this going to do the FO quality? Who is going to come when it will take that much longer to upgrade at EK keeping in mind that many airlines pay more than EK with less upgrade time?
This DEC policy will be a big mistake.
By the way since I have been here 4 times Emirates said it was not going to hire DECs but very shortly after that they did hire DECs. This is the company you are going to join. Not very honest so get used to it.

Cerbus. "Who is going to come when it will take that much longer to upgrade at EK keeping in mind that many airlines pay more than EK with less upgrade time?"

Where is this airline, or airlines you speak of?

BDD

Keep in mind that there are no good airlines that hire DECs. If you do come to EK you will be treated like !!!!e and forget about any promises or contracts they may offer. They are made to be broken.
Speaking of broken so will you be. 90 plus hours in the middle of the night and then to top it off you will have to babysit a DEC that took your job. Even longer to upgrade. Are you sure you want Emirates?

One thing that I don't get about this whole argument is that several instructors have posted that the pass rate was high for DEC's, I think it was mentioned that around a 20% failure rate? So 8 out of 10 DEC's pass their training and are currently on the line, if that is the case then in comparison to the pass rate of other companies that are hiring DEC's the program at EK has been a success. 80% pass rate is pretty good actually, far from being the disaster some are characterizing it as, so why wouldn't they implement a policy that has been very successful for them in the past.:confused:

To be fair Oakape, if DEC's had to have as detailed a knowledge of the OMA, that our F/O's have to have, to pass their pre command course interview, I am sure no DEC would have a hope off getting through a command course here.
I personally have no problems with the concept of DEC but believe the same yardstick to measure competence for the position should be used.
Some of the in flight incidents and ASR's raised from a small minority of our DEC's would raise the hair on the back of your neck! I do believe that several were fired as a result of these incidents. I believe that this has been the big reason for the company's reluctance, so far, to proceed down the DEC avenue again. That and the belief they'd screw themselves for recruiting the F/Os that they'd still need.
They aren't stupid, they'll do what they have to, to ensure they have drivers for the airframes they have arriving.

I agree that it would not be possible to have the required knowledge of the OMA expected of our upgrading F/O's at the start of their Command training but I do believe they should be able to pass a standard upgrade interview before being cleared to line by the end of their training, if we are to have the same yardstick of competency.
There were some, and I know it's not fair to tar all with the same brush, that relied on their F/O's to provide them with the knowledge of proceedures and route knowledge to get through the flight without incident. I think this is where a large chunk of the greivances have occurred in the past.

Did you get the memo?
 

Sorry guys/gals but this swaying back and forth about DECs has been done to death.

(Yes I know if I dont want to read about go to another thread:ugh:)

But if you have not been included into the "DEC memo" mailing list then they who are simply dont care what you think. So save the blood pressure and stick to things you can actually DO something about.

OK coat, hat, door, cheers and good luck!

"you will have to babysit a DEC"
 

Hi guys

LHR RAIN:

I 'm actually rated A340/A330 TRE/TRI both aircraft, before flying B747 with + 19800 hours (Capt 17000 and 13500 WB Captain) and working for an Asian Airline
I'm willing to join to EK if they decide to open DEC
Do you think LHR RAIN you are going to baby sitting me?
If EK open DEC, for sure I will try to join it, and you will be sitting on my right as my F/O, just that, F/O, and perhaps, if you change your mind and becomes more polite, dear LHR RAIN, perhaps you will be not only my F/O but my partner, my mate, my friend as well. This is what a crew concept is, no what you have in your mind.

take care

Babysitting
 

I have a feeling that this thread, which for a change has been till now a rather mature discussion, is drifting into the usual bickering.

Whatever one's experience, we still learn from one another whatever the hours and level of experience. I have flown in every continent however at times I 'relinquish' my command as the F/O sitting next to me might know the area or destination better as he or she might have operated more than me. Does that mean that the F/O is babysitting or that I am not a good Captain? It's all about CRM and using all your resources to the fullest.

At the end of the day the safe outcome of the flight is the most important thing.

babysitting
 

Andy
You are very right.
Wise words coming from the experience!!!
kinds regards

bagalito- yes, so what? You have lots of experience. Does that make you better than the FO with 9000 hours, who came to EK with left seat time?

Experience is a fluid aspect of being a pilot. How much value does each additional 1000 hours bring? How much 'extra' is that worth?

Provided that the FO's have good previous experience (ie. command time) then they should be easily upgradable. This becomes even more true as the upgrade time increases (as it will at EK) to 5,6,7 years and beyond. Take into account their experience on the EK network and there is no need for DEC's.

The need for DEC only arises when there are no suitable FO's OR--and it is a BIG OR--- EK decides that they can save money by hiring DEC's.

But I am sorry - these rants about 'having 19,000 hours' or 'I am a TRE' are absolutely irrelevant!!!!!!!! I am happy that you feel very self important but your argument is rubbish. Given anywhere from 500-2000 hours in command (depends on the individual) the 'quality' of the captain/pilot averages out quickly. We have all flown with lower time guys who fly well and know their stuff and high time guys who are are barely qualified-- and vice versa.

I would also contend, and EK proves this, that some TRE's are excellent and some are truly horrific.

So I am glad that you have 20,000 hours. I am happy that you are a TRI/TRE with lots of WB command. Good for you. But it doesn't make you more qualified than most others. In fact, I have found over the last 20 years or so, that the guys who spout off about their qualifications the most are usually the ones who barely make the grade.

Signed,

a captain with enough experience to know better

Ahh Dear Capt....Bagalito...

Your first post was written with all the arrogance of a true Al Baker disciple...I dont think any of our FO's are worrying about you sitting in the LHS at EK anytime soon.

...after all every one of them has displayed better big pic decision making skills over you... by not choosing to live in the QR penitentiary...

Back to the Doha dream with you skipper...

;>

f.

Very good post trader.

The Don

EK is taking DEC's for over 25 years now, everybody knows that and the guys who don't know should have made their homework.

AA, UA, LH all the majors would take DEC's too if they didn't have Unions.

The owner of EK can do whatever he wants to his Airline, even change the laws if necessary, just accept it.

don't shoot the messenger

Bagalito you want to be our mate but jump ahead of the senority list? Do you really think FOs will be your "mate" when you take their command?
If you are as good as you think you are why aren't you flying for BA or AF?
I am a captain and I care a lot about DECs. I don't want the airline wrecked believe it or not. 1 in 5 previous DECs failed. That is a huge number and contrary to what has been published here no other major airline has that kind of percentage.
If EK does go ahead with DECs which they probably will it will be huge mistake. As has been said no good airline in the world employes DECs and we know the kind that will come to EK.

LHR rain, with all due respect, I don't agree at all with your post.

As you put it, the right way to go about things is either retire from flying once you leave EK or else join another airline as a F/O as it is the right and morale thing to do. If however you join another airline as a DEC, that airline is not a good airline as it recruits DEC's. Does all this makes sense?

Sittingidly, if one has to base the decision on whether to join an airline by reading Pprune then he or she is a moron. People won't join EK because they hire DEC's is far fetched. Look around all the threads regarding pilot recruitment and you read all sorts of bull and rubbish one is amazed how planes are flying.

Why should aviation be any different that others industries. You have a vacancy and someone qualified for the job .... just hire him.

Attention: This is the Captain;

just read the news from the great one EDSVP or whatever the "Big Reds" title is (EK employees will know who i mean)

"DEC's on the way"

STOP END MESSAGE :ugh::ugh:

Welcome to the M/E Jungle-the land of changing goalposts.

11 Feb, 1st post

As it's been over a week, can anyone point me to the link containing the announcement?

Check your company mail. You'll find the answer there.

Dec and right to left on the 380 announced today. But a promise no FO will be held back. Haven't heard that since last time.

Dear Bagalitto

CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR ARROGANCE!! This clearly demonstrates a serious lack of common sense and that you have lost the plot! BAD CRM!! You are a typical individual who goes on a power trip in the left seat. Terrible authority gradient on the flight deck. In my opinion you shouldn't be in the left seat to begin with! Do yourself a favor and don't even consider applying to any DEC job out there, since this is an accident waiting to happen. I have flown with individuals like yourself and wouldn't wish anyone having to go through such an experience. A serious threat to flight safety. Or better please think about this with some good common sense and change your attitude! Everybody who displays an attitude like yourself who thinks that he/she is invincible or is better then someone else and doesn't even recognize his own bad attitude shouldn't be flying! Extremely unprofessional and unacceptable. For your own sake take this message with you while it is still only on pprune and change your attitude for the sake of flight safety! GOOD LUCK!

Hey,

relax... Maybe I'm optimistic, but hopefully they will give now a very good bonus and pay raise! Otherwise I think a lot of F/O's will be dissapointed, demotivated and you never, know leave the company.

Ok, maybe I'm dreaming but let's stay positive guys!!!!

I'm surprised nobody commented yet on the new DEC requirements.
7000 hours total time ,no previous WB experience required! Most of the FOs joined with this kind of total time and previous command. I know I did...
Outrageous!!

Seaman's logic looks reasonable to me...I like it.

Guys, as you can see once again, the goal posts are on wheels. Don't get too wrapped up if this is perceived as adversely affecting you. It'll change once again....380 right to left looks interesting and good for those on that path, however, 2500 hours will take more like 3 years in the right seat. Nice lifestyle for sure though...

The good news is that there are enough spots for just about anyone who wants the left seat in the next few years. It does remind me of a certain "bubble" that happened a few years ago in DXB. Not quite sure how this exponential growth will pan out.

Where are the DEC's going? 777 only?

Said it before and will say it again, "it's their trainset boys" get over it.

Looking at these new DEC requirements I can predict that Wizz Air, Easyjet, and Ryanair will be short of skippers this summer, and I suspect these are the very guys our chaps are targeting, along with a few select Qatar and Teahid drivers.

Magic carpet and monsoon pilot, read Traders last post.

No matter how hard you try to make your hours look better than a DEC's, the fact is the company has always had a history of hiring DEC's and you knew it.

The hour requirement is used as a benchmark to start the command/upgrade/recruitment process for DEC's and FO's alike. It is their train set and they will set their benchmark themselves, or do you think it should be put out to a democratic vote?

While I'm here....this BS about an 80% pass rate for DEC's is another misconstrued statistic. The figure would be the same for new FO's, but the company has the ability to provide a greater level of training and to accept a lower overall competency level. DEC's can't be afforded that luxury so an 80% pass rate is not bad on an industry scale. Anyone care to name the pass rate for FO's currently upgrading?

One of the reasons DEC's are required is a percentage of the current FO's won't meet the command criteria in time (being ex RJ's) and despite Monsoon's opinion, his stated qualifications do not make him an instant four bar success.

Get over it guys, FO's that qualify and meet the standard will get a command.