......0 hours Emirates operating time required for DEC
2,500 hours Emirates operating time for Emirates FO with identical experience

Two groups got shafted today by this FCI.
1. Those FOs forced onto the 380 because they had the required experience when others didn't. As they will be watching their less experienced peers upgrade on the minibus as they wait to do the 2500hrs on the 380.
2. Junior Capts on the mini bus, as they watch a new joiner FO do 1yr on the mini bus before going to the 380 and upgrading on it before the minibus capt does his 4 yrs of command requirement.

If they could just decide on one upgrade/transfer policy and stick with it rather than waiting for the knee to jerk again!!! :ugh:

The Don

So when EK F/O's get into the LHS and then at some point years later, leave EK for other pastures, do they still strongly oppose DEC's ....?

I think not - most will suddenly think DEC's are OK and take a DEC job themselves elsewhere.

Get over it

So go on strike then. (or go sick on the same day) Seriously if ALL pilots in the group said we wont fly with that policy then watch how quick it will all change. Yes i know pilots would never stick together or do that, but just imagine....

No lectures required about unity here Pam. Plenty of pilots in EK that have exercised their legal rights of representation in the past. For whatever reason, they then chose to leave that protection behind and become an expatriate contract pilot.

That's all we are and I do not require or expect anything from my colleagues other than a professional work ethic.

On the subject of FR pilots (or any breed for that matter) and making sense of it all. Wouldn't it be ironic if an FR DEC were to join and fly with an ex FR pilot that is now an EK FO, but had once been a DEC with FR with the first individual as the FO!

Make sense of that and try to find some sympathy.

....especially if you didn't like them first time around :}

Its not yet on the company website....
 

Does Emirates intend to recruit direct entry Captains?

We currently have many First Officers who are ready to upgrade to Captain, and therefore it is not a priority for the immediate future.

Ladies & Gents,

Just to clarify I'm confused....From my reading...you could have a 5-6 year A380 FO through no fault of his/her own who would have say transferred to the 38o at year 3.5 (coz there were no upgrades at their seniority then) who has done the first 3.5 years doing 330 India night turns mainly, now has to have 2500 in the RHS of said bus (new FCI) to transfer to LHS 380 for command.(say 2.5 -3 yrs total 380 time = 6.5 yrs total)...

...yet (wait for it!)...a euro LCC PIC with 7k total time & 2.5k cmnd time can technically come in and interview for Capt...and not even have to know the fcukn OMA....And get a 7 yr start on Capt pay compared to said FO...

What an absolute disgrace....

Cue DSO...car convo...

45ish 3 stripe to 32ish 4stripe:

" mornin!... How long you hear skip?"

" 6.5 weeks!...you?"

"6.5 years on widebody/doubledecker, 3rd world intl flying @ 60% of your pay skippy"

Pathetic.

f.

If this is true, Emirates has gone from the top of the list (in the region) right down to the bottom of the pile next to their cousins down the road.

I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible.

“We do not need DECs because we have plenty of experienced FOs and the only way in is as FO at the bottom of the list”.

inciter , Indignation noted but I remember them taking DEC in the 727 in the late 80's...not going to change...

DEC's
 

I once had a TRE tell me that the biggest mistake EK has made in this whole debacle, is that they stopped hiring DEC's. :eek:

He was f$&@"g lucky I have a good sense of humour!! :yuk:

I personally have no issue with the Individual, just the "Policy". Especially when we have some very capable guys in the RHS!! EK should only be going down this path when there are no "Upgradeable" F/O's. And IF and only IF DEC's are required they should be type rated with experience commensurate with the same field of operations, not some Plonker who's got a million sectors crossing the "Chanel" and never used HF!! :mad:

What an Utterly Disgraceful Company! :=:*

Inciter wrote:

"I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible."

This absolutely ridicolous, I am speechless this is supposed to come from a professional pilot.

If this is the way you consider any company TREs than or that training department is utterly ridicolous or you are missing a few points about this profession. At this moment I might ponder towards the second option...

So much bullsxit about CRM and the hours count/don't count and than sentences like this... Training/checking should be above personal battles, integrity should be the norm otherwise whatever remains of this profession is dead.

If you're working for EK no wonder they keep looking for fresh blood again and again!

If you really feel this way, you are a sorry excuse for a "professional" pilot.

You think DECs should be failed just so TREs can prove a point regarding their(or, more to the point, YOUR) opinion?

Pathetic.

Wind the clock back to 2004.... we all saw it happen then, the reality is guys we have no say what the company does.... because it's not our company. we choose to come here and unfortunately things change that disadvantage us, but, so this is not going to change.

I feel for many of the very good F\O's that we have, it is indeed hard to swallow a bitter pill but hang in there guys, things change rapidly in EK.

We at least are still expanding there is still opportunities for advancement. I for one would sure as !!!!! hate to be waiting for a command in BA or Qantas.

...and perhaps...hopefully....just maybe......there has been some forethought......and the FCI is meant to head off any future issues.....and that there is truth that no qualified FO's will be bypassed.....

Does the accelerated command policy still exist? and if so, has it been used recently to try and avoid this situation?

Storm in a teacup...
 

Even if it takes an FO 10 years to wide-body command at EK...that is still extremely fast by most yardsticks.

DECs are always a testy subject...but I think the 'doom and gloom' for FOs and new joiners needs to be kept in perspective.

A few DECs is not going to stop guys chasing a WB command in the sandpit. It will still be MUCH quicker, on better money and better conditions than if they aspired to that goal in their country of origin.

PG

PS. While it has been said before, it bears repeating: It its someone else's train set. Pilots stepping out from their (usually) western, democratised home countries know the risks of working in an environment which lacks any significant employee rights and industrial protections. Risk versus reward should always be weighed carefully.

Wow. Sorry for saying this but really how low can you go? I am surprised you passed the selection process.

Just keep in mind that a TRE is recommended by the airline to the civil authority.

Feel EXACTLY the same, CAYNINE.

We can say whatever we want, the company does whatever it wants.

I wonder how many Guys have recently applied for F/O will now be told by EK that they actually meet the min requirement for Capt??

Just the same as ALOT of the current EK F/Os do!

It's going to get messy!!

Cav.

If Emirates had no experienced FOs then DECs would be justified but that is not the case.

They are only doing it because they can and because it is the cheapest option.

Funny thing is that even if they offered 20% less most of you would still be licking your chops and jumping at the bid to come over and screw 1000 plus FOs.

Naturally, six months later you would be bitching and moaning about your T&Cs.
YOU are the reason Aviation today pays less than it did 20 years ago.

You want to do the right thing, there is a job for you as FO at the bottom of the list because Emirates DOES NOT NEED your left seat experience, you just happen to come cheap.

Don’t go talking to me about integrity and professionalism. Even though more than qualified for a DEC with Emirates I NEVER have and would NEVER apply.

Someone mentioned earlier, why should aviation be different to any other industry.
Because it was. You started as FO, did your time, earned your colleagues‘ respect and got your promotion. The method minimised ass kissing and the back stabbing that exists in other industries but that is no more, every man for himself these days.

DEC
 

House is on fire.....wonder where this thread will be heading.
Guys wake up and smell the coffee this is the middle east and you get what u signed on the dotted line. Rest is a bonus take it or leave it.

This is not the wild wild west but money talks and bull.... Walks!

I feel you guys on the RHS...sorry if this will affect your promotions, but to be honest, there's nothing much we can do. Most of us been here long enough to understand that the only constant thing in EK are changes. We all expected at some point that upgrade on the whale will happen, and so it will ,based on this FCI. But if you analyze carefully on how it was written...2500 hrs on the RHS 380 before a Command upgrade, and thats 4 to 5 yrs.to build. And by that same time, most of us on the Bus in particular,If not ALL, have already been transferred to "who knows where" 777 or the 380. Even the most senior FO on the 380 does not have a 2500hrs on type at present. And im saying this based on their current phase out plan. So, one can just imagine the number of upgrades coming in the next year or two.
Huge number of Upgrade interviews are still ongoing, but unfortunately the rates of failures and repeat interviews were quite big. And this affects movements for the rest of you, since the the repeats will be called again ahead of others ,due to their seniority. All EK F/Os are qualified to be Captains, and thats the reason they hired us in the first place...but, that seizes once we fail a PPC, ALC, Upgrade interview, etc etc.
So, what to do ? IMHO,do your stuff and study..And try your best to pass the first take. Because , this is one Reason you give to the Company to resource on DEC's.

to my colleagues on the RHS, i hope you'll all get your Upgrades. For now, let's enjoy life. its a waiting game....lets see

My2C
DC

Why is Emirates wanting to hire DECs? Do they need bodies or just trying to save training cycles?
I think they have plenty of not only qualifed FOs but also suitable FOs under the new lower requirements.
This is just another screw job by Emirates and any new joiner should think very carefully about joining this circus. It is a screw job plain and simple.

Who have to think very carefully?? New joiners with 2500TT joining on 330 or 777 with age around 25 and will get a LHS in JUST 7-10 Years? :*
Com on guys....looks like NG of pilots really.. really..get spoiled... :ugh:

DEC @ EK
 

Is it true, are the Emirates taking DEC's now ???.

There is a whole thread on the ME part of PPRnNe - its true

Well its still not up on the main site...

From Emirates web site ...


Does Emirates intend to recruit direct entry Captains?
We currently have many First Officers who are ready to upgrade to Captain, and therefore it is not a priority for the immediate future.

So there is ...Thanks:ok:

hi there,
how much can a captain B777 make on EK these days? how many hrs a year?
tks

EK Captains make $20,000/mth and fly 750 hrs a year.

I hope you were being sarcastic here!!!

[QUOTE]"I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible."/QUOTE]

Inciter - the snag with your rather juvenile wish is that unless staying until retirement, the TRE's will themselves leave EK one day and I doubt they will be applying for F/O jobs elsewhere. You yourself may leave EK one day as a Captain and again I doubt you will then still have the same principle against DEC's

Get over it...!

I hope you were being sarcastic here!!!
 

Do we have to do this again?

This Emirates captain here made $27000 net last month and that only includes the things which came to him in cash: salary, appointment pay, housing allowance, flight pay, ERP, and provident A contribution. No productivity pay or profit share figures in that amount.

It does not include those things which came to him in kind, such as life insurance, loss of license insurance, and school fees for the kids. All these would need to be replaced and paid for if this captain worked anywhere else. Do the math, but depending on where you might like to live outside EK you'll need several thousand dollars more to cover those.

Guys

Can't you see the reason for DEC? It is not to deliberately "screw" anyone. It is simple mathematics. If you only hire FOs you reduce the number of possible applicants by at least 50%.
They will continue to upgrade within as fast as they can but with the number of aircraft coming they must find more pilots to fill these seats.
Will they lose FO applicants? Hardly, it is still the fastest way to a wide body command and the applicants know this.

Most of the DEC positions around the world are at the national majors in Far East (eg KAL, CAL, EVA, SIA, CCA, CSN, HVN) where your contract as an expat is time limited until their own pilots are ready to take over and you will be sent home. Also in the recession your services will no longer be required. Or they are startups which need pilots of any qualifications to jump start their ops with as little investment as possible. Or they are airlines with high attrition rate so they need replacements fast.
EK is in neither category. Yes some of the pilots will leave EK to be DEC somewhere but they will sacrifice the permanent contract and stable airline seniority and benefits, however most of them are actually planning to stay longer...
It is a good thing that there are so many upgrade slots available in the future and hopefully there will be enough for everyone qualified but in this volatile economy and politics one upgrade training slot might be as big as a whole career.
Although a bit emotional Inciter sends a clear message to potential DEC joiners.
Work very hard and a bit more to prove that you are more qualified with your experience than your FO who is in the company for few years already and knows the airplane and the operations inside out, and is studying really hard to pass all the exams and checks planned in the OMD for his upgrade. Passing the initial screening is just a start.

Requirements for the Position of Captain A330/B777

- A minimum of 7000 hours total flying time (only front seat time on turboprop and/or turbojet aircraft can be counted).
- A minimum of 3000 hours command time on multi-crew, multi-engine commercial jet aircraft with an MTOW of 50 tonnes or more.
Note: We do not accept simulator time for flying hours calculation.
- Must hold a valid ICAO ATPL with an unrestricted class one medical certificate
- English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension); must be at least equal to ICAO English level 5.
- Must have flown as an aircraft commander on a jet meeting the above mentioned criteria, within 12 months of joining
- Preference will be given to type rated Airbus A330/340, B777 or other relevant wide body commanders and Instructors/Examiners

Is there a pay scale for the First Officers or is it what is published online every year with no yearly increases? That said what is the average and max pay one can expect as an FO for the first 3-5 years?

The DEC situation IS interesting. In the US, DAL/AA/UAL/Alaska/Hawaiian/USAirways...none of them take DECs, unless you are hired as a management pilot.

cliff
KGRB

Still nothing on their recruitment website, only FO positions.
Where are you boys getting this info ?