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Originally Posted by mutt
(Post 9497248)
50% of the saudi population is under the age of 25, the concept of saudiization is to provide jobs for them.
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Easiest way to achieve Saudiization of the pilot workforce would be to cancel the 5 days off in a row and cancel overtime :):)
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Here in lies the problem to the answer.
Creating the jobs is all well and good. Getting the Saudis to actually do the work is a completely different issue.
I remember a few years back an edict that all taxis would be driven by Saudis. I think it had a lead in of 3 months. Never happened. |
The Arab News article quotes the Director General that there are 3000 Saudi trainee pilots abroad. If that is accurate then would 2020 not be realistic?
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Did they ever mention saudization of cabin crew? :suspect:
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I think the expat cabin crew are safe.
Igig: 2020 is possibly realistic if Saudi Arabia operated an EASA style operation but in fact the Saudi system is experience based and follows the FAA model. The Saudia management may have targets but currently don't have the power to force significant change on GACA. The flow of cadets in to Saudia will be relatively slow especially compared to companies in Europe like Easyjet or Ryanair, they will always want to keep average experience levels comparable with equivalent part 121 FAA Airlines. So of course you have vested interests in Saudi Arabia; GACA being one, Saudi management being another (and even differing factions within), the government a third, and they all have their power and priority which often conflicts. No question though Saudiization is important to them and it will come at some point, especially if there is a period of stagnation in growth of the airline. |
Originally Posted by polax52
(Post 9498273)
I think the expat cabin crew are safe.
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Originally Posted by Cliff Secord
(Post 9497109)
Quick question. This block of 5 days that keeps getting mentioned. I take it you actually have more off a month in total? 1-2 days off between trips? I don't know the GACA regs but take it it's not 25 days of work with pure min rest between and one set of 5 days off?
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Nope no NEO ,only CEO
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Plenty of changes happening in the airline. They really have to ramp up the training. With 6-12 months of transition or initial training, Saudiization seems like a mirage.
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Originally Posted by ExDubai
(Post 9498309)
For sure, try to imagine on of those male desert roses serving tea and coffee :cool:
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Words fail me !
Batch of 8 FO's and 8 Captains. Last month of training, and my mate tells me as of yesterday only ONE Captain left and 3 FO's struggling. That's a 25% survival rate now :uhoh: :uhoh: :( |
Originally Posted by King on a Wing
(Post 9511728)
Words fail me !
Batch of 8 FO's and 8 Captains. Last month of training, and my mate tells me as of yesterday only ONE Captain left and 3 FO's struggling. That's a 25% survival rate now :uhoh: :uhoh: :( |
I believe it's on all fleets now.
About 25-50% of the candidates joining are still in the country by the end of the training...! Either terminated or left of their own will or ( in a couple of cases ) completed training AND THEN left for home. Simply didn't like it. Either way, I think it's insane. Huge failure/departure rate. |
What stage of training king ?
Yes, Training is ridiculous now. They hired too many pilots and don't know what to do with them. The training department absolutely has no clue as to which training should get priority. No sim slots, No IPs and so on. They never hired so many pilots in the past it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong. New IPs wait for months together for GACA observation, then few more months for observation flights by current IPs. Looks like even a IP training takes 6-12 months. MAS pilots have spoilt the whole equation. Almost all first officers in my batch are frustrated. With the slow training, endless Second officer flights, non stop orals, unnecessary paper work etc and the system as such. What else can you expect ?! Attrition obviously! But cases of termination are very rare. They give 3 chances unless someone has a serious attitude problem. Only the Captain training is on right pace. That too not upto the industry standards. |
That too not upto the industry standards. |
Is it ? But that doesn't justify a 12 month training for someone who can fly.
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Saudi Gazette report RIYADH — Minister of Transportation Sulaiman Al-Hamdan announced the addition of 63 new aircraft to Saudi Arabian Airlines’ existing fleet. Al-Hamdan made the announcement on the Kingdom’s National Day. “The new airplanes will be used for passenger transport. The ministry has a strategic plan to expand its services and improve the quality of these services. The airplanes will be used on national and international routes. The ministry has also contracted with several partners through the General Authority of Civil Aviation to expand and grow in order to achieve its goals under its strategic plan,” said the source. Saudia’s Director General Saleh Al-Jasser said the new agreements of the General Authority of Civil Aviation enlisted the ownership of 63 new airplanes. “We have obtained 15 Boeing 777-300ER, 13 Boeing 787 Dreamliner and 35 Airbus New Generation A320/A321-neo planes. The airlines signed an agreement last year with Airbus to purchase 50 A330 regional and A320 aircraft. The agreement was signed last year in Paris in the presence of Deputy Crown Prince and Minister of Defense Muhammad Bin Salman,” said Al-Jasser. He said the airline received the airplanes last month. “The airline signed agreements this year and the year before for the purchase of a total of 113 new airplanes with advanced technological features. The airline will receive four airplanes of model B787-9 in 2017,” said Al-Jasser. |
Mutt, I admire your doggedness. Stay well.
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Apparently these orders represent the filling out of 200 aircraft by 2020.
But, will any of them end up at flyadeal? Aviation Tribune provides a little more clarity: Saudi Arabian Airlines will acquire 63 aircraft as part of a fleet expansion and modernization program. His Excellency the Minister of Transport, Chairman of the Board of General Authority of Civil Aviation and Chairman of the Board of Saudi Arabian Airlines, Mr. Sulaiman Alhamdan announced the approval by Saudia’s Board of Directors of Saudia’s fleet plan. Alhamdan further stated: “It is my pleasure to announce that the national carrier has acquired 63 new aircraft as part of its fleet expansion and modernization plan reflecting the strength of our national economy.” He stressed that this new acquisition will support the national carrier’s operating plans for domestic and international markets and its ambitious transformation program that was approved and supported by the Board as many of its initiatives and the objectives of its strategic plan are being carried out. Saudia’s Director General Engineer Saleh Aljasser elaborated that this new acquisition includes 15 Boeing 777-300ER’s, 13 Boeing 787’s and 35 Airbus A320/A321neo. These aircraft are in addition to the 50 Airbus aircraft (A330 Regional and A320) that Saudia signed for last year in Paris. He further added: “Saudia within two years has signed agreements to acquire 113 aircraft, in line with its fleet renewal and expansion initiative which is part of the Transformation Program that was launched last year to double in seven years what has been achieved in 70 years, and includes several other initiatives starting with investment in our people, upgrade operational efficiency and effectiveness, focus on total customer experience, optimize the network and creating distinctive products for our guests. Several of the initiatives have already been executed and some are in the process so that by 2020 we will reach our targets of a fleet of 200 aircraft, 1000 daily flights and 45 million annual passengers.” Next year will witness the delivery of thirty aircraft, the highest number in the history of the airline, 22 of which are wide-body aircraft (777-300ER, 787-9 and A330R), while within the last 4 months of this year 2016 Saudia is receiving 25 aircraft, 21 of which are wide-body in addition to the four aircraft it received earlier this year bringing the total deliveries in 2016 to 29 aircraft. He further added that as part of the fleet renewal, several aircraft will be taken out of service according to a phase-out plan that takes in consideration the delivery of new aircraft. Four 747-400 aircraft have been phased-out this year, and the phase-out of the Embraer 170 fleet of 15 aircraft is ongoing and will be completed by the end of this year. Additionally, Saudia will phase-out five units from its Boeing 777-200 fleet of 23 aircraft, with the remaining 18 scheduled to be phased-out before the end of 2017. The airline’s early generation of A320 aircraft will be phased-out over the next two years. Mr. Aljasser emphasized that these agreements to acquire new aircraft was being accompanied by other initiatives to train and prepare its national manpower to operate and maintain this fleet. This is reflected in the agreement Saudia signed with the Ministry of Education for 5000 scholarships to send Saudi students to study abroad aviation sciences and maintenance. |
Ha ! I wish I could believe it. Let's see.
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Originally Posted by argentina21
(Post 9519978)
Apparently these orders represent the filling out of 200 aircraft by 2020.
But, will any of them end up at flyadeal? Aviation Tribune provides a little more clarity: Sure sounds like a lot of aircraft to crew within a short amount of tme. |
It seems that they are failing large numbers on 777 courses at the moment. Too many to be a natural rate.
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Pilot recruitment Access
Gentlemen,
I'm having trouble to get access to my profile on the recruitment website in order to complete my application. Did try to reset the password still not working. What is the phone number to call or the email address to resolve the issue ? Your help is appreciated |
SV 1110 0900 JED DMM 1110 SV 1109 1210 DMM JED 1425 SV 1768 1535 JED GIZ 1700 SV 1777 1800 GIZ JED 1925 |
Hope they take over our crappy flights soon....
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Relax, they will.
There'll be more than enough flying if you have a look at the Winter schedule... many increases in rotations, which only means shorter layovers. :sad: Pity they're trying to grow with some poor fleet decisions (B787 "regionals" and A33R with no ETOPS etc etc) and so many people not passing or even showing up now. Happy Landings:ok: |
Heard some upper Managment shift taking place.
Major shuffle. Better or Worse? |
Originally Posted by Flyboy_SG
(Post 9525320)
Hope they take over our crappy flights soon....
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Will the Royal decree affect Saudia (specifically the expat pilot group) with respect to public sector cutbacks, cancelling wage increases, bonus payments, overtime, annual leave, etc.?
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Originally Posted by Chocks Away
(Post 9527170)
Relax, they will.
There'll be more than enough flying if you have a look at the Winter schedule... many increases in rotations, which only means shorter layovers. :sad: Pity they're trying to grow with some poor fleet decisions (B787 "regionals" and A33R with no ETOPS etc etc) and so many people not passing or even showing up now. Happy Landings:ok: |
Yes I'm aware of the "reasoning" behind the A33R Alloha, in that it gave them immediate access to wide body Airbuses (huge queue for them) to put on the local and regional routes, in replacement of older B772's but that's why no one else has bought them... you don't spend big $$ on buying a wide body aircraft limiting yourself to its future useage/routes and the A330 has proven itself as a great Long distance truck.
The 787 "regionals"...well that was a mistake and people lost their jobs over that. The smart thing to do is keep the 777-268's, D-check, repaint & refit the interiors to the new product & you've got them for another 10-15 years, they owe you nothing and it's keeping more wide body seats in their market. EK crew call it the "John Deere" for a good reason and given the large amount of used B777's on the market right now your going to get zip for them anyway. Anyway, I've got no wasta here so why bother caring. "Just keep Swimming, just keep Swimming..." :-) |
I want to put out a warning to guys currently planning to come to Saudia. If you look at my previous posts, they have been fair and information based. I am not writing this for any interest other than it is currently the fact on the ground. I have never seen anything like it.
I think a lot of people took great exception to 200 Malaysian pilots being employed without screening. The backlash is huge and includes most instructors and GACA themselves. It was always difficult going through training as a foreign Pilot with Saudia but that was when they wanted you to pass. Now it's something else, they have ramped up the pressure so that when you brake, you're on a slippery slope. I recommend to prospective Saudia guys to wait until this period is over. |
Originally Posted by polax52
(Post 9528737)
I want to put out a warning to guys currently planning to come to Saudia. If you look at my previous posts, they have been fair and information based. I am not writing this for any interest other than it is currently the fact on the ground. I have never seen anything like it.
I think a lot of people took great exception to 200 Malaysian pilots being employed without screening. The backlash is huge and includes most instructors and GACA themselves. It was always difficult going through training as a foreign Pilot with Saudia but that was when they wanted you to pass. Now it's something else, they have ramped up the pressure so that when you brake, you're on a slippery slope. I recommend to prospective Saudia guys to wait until this period is over. Would you have any guess as to how long for this cycle to run its course. |
@Igigi.Atleast till next June. 100 777 FOs in trainin now. So I would suggest first officers just to stay away.
@Romasaik . No hard feelings please. They are phasing out all the 200s. They all will be gone by Dec 2017 leaving with 20 odd 773. So beginning next year 777 fleet is going to shrink. Growth will be in A330s and they will make up all the flying. But as such the over all conditions are getting worse anyways. Like polax pointed out, the Malaysian recruitment has put the whole equation to a total chaos. Even on line it's hard to get a good roster and layovers are getting shorter and shorter. 16 hrs in LHR after all night flying ! More and more people are leaving and failing. What will happen when people don't fly for a year or someone is scheduled for line check after 40 days of no flying. I have nothing against those who fail, I'm sure they are good pilots. It's the system which has just got ridiculous. And a fleet of 200 by 2020 will not happen it seems. Besides everything there will be a pay cut and reduced leaves in the next contract. Well, now they seem to have woke up after long time. |
Well said chocks, It costs them nothing and IMHO, 777s are the best from Boeing's stable.
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Originally Posted by Flyboy_SG
(Post 9530178)
@Igigi.Atleast till next June. 100 777 FOs in trainin now. So I would suggest first officers just to stay away.
@Romasaik . No hard feelings please. They are phasing out all the 200s. They all will be gone by Dec 2017 leaving with 20 odd 773. So beginning next year 777 fleet is going to shrink. Growth will be in A330s and they will make up all the flying. But as such the over all conditions are getting worse anyways. Like polax pointed out, the Malaysian recruitment has put the whole equation to a total chaos. Even on line it's hard to get a good roster and layovers are getting shorter and shorter. 16 hrs in LHR after all night flying ! More and more people are leaving and failing. What will happen when people don't fly for a year or someone is scheduled for line check after 40 days of no flying. I have nothing against those who fail, I'm sure they are good pilots. It's the system which has just got ridiculous. And a fleet of 200 by 2020 will not happen it seems. Besides everything there will be a pay cut and reduced leaves in the next contract. Well, now they seem to have woke up after long time. |
SG -
1. Where exactly did you come up with the idea there will be a paycut and reduced leave next contract? Conjecture on your part? Having been here for over a decade and knowing the history going further back. There has never been a reduction to the contract without a corresponding increase in some other allowance. 2. The 16 hour LHR's have been around well over a year or two. Before that, there were 16 hour BOM's. So this is not new nor dramatic. 3. If I have been following the thread correctly, you are newly released to the line. What are you basing your statement on that it is harder to get a good roster now? Your long experience of the seasonal changes to the schedule? |
Yes 200 Malaysians might have joined up initially.
But they haven't spoilt much. Mostly because less than 50% are left, with many more waiting eagerly in line to leave. On both the Bus n Boeing fleets. They are literally leaving in droves. Mostly due to 'impending situations and circumstances' here in SV. In fact these very pilots might be the reason that SAUDIA is in the spot it is in today. A complete mis calculation. Obviously, all of the Malays who have left or frozen their contracts are already on the Payrolls of other SE carriers. It's a comedy of sorts. With very serious implications. For both the 'other' expat pilots. And for SAUDIA. |
25 is the number I heard from a senior management pilot. If it's 35 it's good, but still it's a decline in the total 777 fleet strength. I don't have a long experience here, thank God and I wouldn't want it either. Regarding the contract again from the same guy, it's not my idea, as we are trained here to memorise and not to think. No more Ramadan bonus, reduced leaves and contract in gegorian calendar. Well, we will wait for it to see it on paper. 22 reserve lines. What can you expect ? Hope it gets better by Next year. (Roster)
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