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from EK .......DEC to RYR

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

from EK .......DEC to RYR

Old 14th Jul 2018, 00:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: on earth
Posts: 302
Just for info , we receive the same kind of memo here ( the little sister company across the airport ) to remind all the cabin crew that it was captain discretion , only making them believing that the captain could decide if the crew was fit or not to fly!!!
This is a " convenient " interpretation of the captain discretion.
The captain is supposed to ask all the crew member if they are fit to fly into discretion BUT can not decide for them or worse force them to fly.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 03:15
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: 35000ft
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by dirk85 View Post
Safety culture? If this is fresh air compared to EK, I start to be scared for you guys.
Calling fatigues is simply not an option in Ryanair. Either you are sick or you refuse to fly, and get sacked.
The 4 cabin crews that wrote this letter were fired the day after. Have a good read.

Good morning
As you are probably informed already we are the PMI crew that overnight in CGN and got a meeting to DUB because we refused to fly on captain discretion. We want you to be aware of our situation and everything that happened between the 08/07/18 and 09/07/18.

“On the 08/07/18 we were operating a MAD-CGN flight starting from PMI base (12:15z departure). Due tu lack of personal in PMI and slots in MAD we knew already before leaving PMI for the last two sectors that we would have been on captain discretion. Despite all that we left anyway.

We landed in CGN 20:48z plus we had to wait an extra 20min to be able to disembark the PRM.
As procedure the captain asked the all crew if they were willing to fly back on discretion. The First Officer agreed on doing that but us, as cabin crew we all agreed that we were not fit to fly anymore.
The captain understood our decision and called the duty pilot to explain him our situation and the duty pilot understood our decision as well and told us that was our legal right to do that. He than informed that captain that someone from DUB would contact him.
The captain then received a call from a manager in DUB asking him to force his crew to operate the flight back. The captain refused to do that and let the manager speak to the cabin crew individually.

The first cabin crew who spoke with her was the N2.
The manager told him if he was refusing to fly he then answer that he was not refusing to fly but he was unfit to fly and that if something happened safety wise he wouldn’t be able anymore physically or mentally to deal with the situation. She then repeat that he was refusing to fly so he repeat the same answer. She than asked which day was for him and how was possible that he was fatigue on his 4th working day. He state that he has been working three days plus the twelve and more hours of work that he was doing that day. The manager than said that if he was tired was just because he was not taking good care of himself and that he was disrespecting the passengers by refusing to operate the flight back because they wouldn’t be able to fly to PMI because of him. He than replied that it would be disrespectful to the passengers if he would operate a flight when he’s not fit to and not mentally or physically capable anymore to guaranty the safety of the flight and the passengers.

The second cabin crew who spoke with her was the N4. The cabin crew explained to her the situation telling that she was already flying on the day off as a FLEXI day and she was not fit to operate any flight anymore as it would be against safety procedures. Then the manager replied putting pressure on the N4 asking her if she was willing to disappoint the passenger for just 15min of discretion. (At the beginning when we landed we were expecting 15min of discretion that already at that time after all the waiting where increased).

She then spoke to the N1 asking her to convince her crew to operate the flight back, so she asked again the crew and we all agree together once agin that the flight wouldn’t be safe anymore if operated by us because we were not fit to fly anymore and also there was no water suitable for drinking available onboard for neither passengers or cabin crew. So she report to the manager the decision and the manger intimidated the all crew by telling her that if they would refuse to operate the flight back they would be scheduled for a meeting in DUB the day after.
The phone call ended with the crew taking the intimidation and still refusing for safety reason to operate the flight back.

The captain called operations asking to fly back empty as the flight crew still felt fit to fly. Operations informed the captain that DUB wanted the crew to overnight in CGN and go to DUB the day after for a meeting. Then the crew left the aircraft and went to the crew room to call crew control to know the details about the overnight and the flights for the day after.
We were informed that our flight to DUB the day after would have been at 05:55z to MAN and then from there to DUB at 11:00z. After receiving all this informations and knowing that neither the hotel or the lift to this one was arrange we were questioning to crew control about our rest period. We got as answer that the flights and the meeting in DUB the day after were not consider as duty so the proper rest time was not needed.
After being waiting a at the airport for at least another hour we decide to call crew control again as calculating all the time to reach the hotel and the time to come back we had left only 4h sleeping. We got once again the same answer and we’ve also been told that we could refuse to come to the meeting but that may had repercussions. At this point we just gave up and after waiting another 15min we reach the hotel in CGN at 02:15L.
I am not going to get into a debate about the merits of the above mentioned event.

I will start by saying that the cabin crew are not treated as well and work for a pittance. It’s not a job I would do.

I would also also say that this job is not for all especially after working for a full service airline. But the comment was about safety culture.

I will therefore say the following;
1) it is Captains discretion and from the above it seems to have been poorly managed by the Captain.
2)whilst not doubting the report this is one side of the coin
3) my experience has been entirely different in the company
4) I also understand that management have a role to play. I doubt the 15min discretion would have had any impact, and if it did then they were not fit to fly in the for their assigned duty and should have called sick
5) whilst I have no information about the above, like many other rumors on this network and elsewhere when stories of firings take place I take these with a pinch of salt.

I stand by by what I wrote that the Safety culture and approach Flt Ops Mgmt I have witnessed are an immensely vast improvement to what I saw in EK in well over a decade there.

Again best if luck.



Last edited by Noleave; 14th Jul 2018 at 03:34. Reason: Edit
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 07:03
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: 35000ft
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Airdancer View Post
Noleave seems to be quite RYR pro which could mean that it indeed is getting better or he is a management troll. You never know.

I'm ex RYR and would like to point out that EK is indeed the longhaul version of RYR just more money. Also keep in mind that everything EK changed is learned from RYR. They are rats and will squeeze you once the desperation phase is over. They are indeed improving on a lot of fronts but don't be blind and idiotic. These guys will screw you over again and again once money starts rolling again. At the moment jobs are everywhere and they know that as they are losing more pilots then they can hire ( sounds familiar?). They are improving tho to attract but please just see it as a carrot to reel you in!

Also to counteract noleave. Flt ops are morons and had to explain then several times what our flight time limitation were and what the rules are about discretion. ( They will bully captains in going in discretion or plan block time shorter than flight time just to plan into discretion ).

Also he forgot to mention base changes and out of base weeks. Changes happen and they will force you out of your base so you have to commute which means 4 days off turned into 2 days off. MOL likes to change his mind and reductions with airplanes or just base closures happen quite often.
Then there are out of base weeks which happen primarily if you're a contracter. Hope for the best that you get a base which is connected to yours otherwise it's up to you to get to the base by own transport and yes also own hotel costs... all that for only 20 euro per hour extra...

I'm not saying stay in EK or don't go to RYR, I'm just warning you. I left RYR and now I am also leaving EK as it's just the same company. I did make more money here which was my ultimate goal so I'm not complaining but just keep in mind you're going from one bad to another. There are much better options out there.
Hi Airdancer,

Like I said I am new here.

I have heard about all the things that you have said.

I have to to admit I was and am apprehensive, but I have not been affected, nor have the people at my base or the people I Know at other bases by out of base assignments or changes.

There have been the odd out of base for the FO but the DH is being done on a duty day ie one of the 5 days on. Whether this is a change from the past I do not know.

with regards to mgmt, I can’t counter your point of view. I just have never had any decision questioned by them. I have only seen how they have managed other issues with colleagues at my base, and it’s a lot better than at EK.

You are correct in your comparison of the modus operandi of the company in that they are both into massive cost cutting.

I will stay as long as it works for me. But for the time being, yes, it’s a hell of a lot more refreshing than at EK. If it’s temporary or not I can’t tell.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 09:32
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: world
Age: 49
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Noleave View Post


Hi Airdancer,

Like I said I am new here.

I have heard about all the things that you have said.

I have to to admit I was and am apprehensive, but I have not been affected, nor have the people at my base or the people I Know at other bases by out of base assignments or changes.

There have been the odd out of base for the FO but the DH is being done on a duty day ie one of the 5 days on. Whether this is a change from the past I do not know.

with regards to mgmt, I can’t counter your point of view. I just have never had any decision questioned by them. I have only seen how they have managed other issues with colleagues at my base, and it’s a lot better than at EK.

You are correct in your comparison of the modus operandi of the company in that they are both into massive cost cutting.

I will stay as long as it works for me. But for the time being, yes, it’s a hell of a lot more refreshing than at EK. If it’s temporary or not I can’t tell.

Report back in 1 year...
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 11:20
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Originally Posted by dubaigong View Post
Just for info , we receive the same kind of memo here ( the little sister company across the airport ) to remind all the cabin crew that it was captain discretion , only making them believing that the captain could decide if the crew was fit or not to fly!!!
This is a " convenient " interpretation of the captain discretion.
The captain is supposed to ask all the crew member if they are fit to fly into discretion BUT can not decide for them or worse force them to fly.
So your OMA says he has to “ask” and not “take into consideration”?

Your OMA also states that he cannot decide? The reason I ask is that our FDPs are quite closely alligned and I find it interesting that FD would take the decision away from the Capt.

Can you clarify.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 11:47
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Knoteatingham
Posts: 829
It's a brave Commander who overrides a cabin crew member who has stated that they are unfit for discretion, and thereby, unfit to fly.

The OMA quite clearly, and separately, places an obligation on each and every crew member not to fly if they believe they are, or may become, unfit to fly during the rostered duty.

Far better to see how many crew (if any) can be stood down, while still being able to operate with the remaining crew.

Imagine a botched pax evac after landing, caused by a cabin crew who had been told by the Commander that they were fit to operate into discretion after they had gone on the record stating that they were not.

Commander's discretion is all well and good but you are potentially opening up a whole world of legal pain if you override a crew member who says they are not fit to operate.

It is invariably a balancing act between assessing the fitness of crew who may be stating they are unfit for less than genuine reasons and fighting commercial pressure from an employer whose first priority is to get the job done and avoid hotac costs and roster disruption - with no consideration whatsoever for fatigue or safety.

Not easy.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 12:33
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: on earth
Posts: 302
Fliion ,

In the OMA it states " an aircraft commander may , at his discretion , and after taking note of the circumstances of the other members of the crew , extend an FDP beyond that permitted… "
But we have received an aircrew notice that says " discretion is authorized or rejected by the commander ALONE ( not the co-pilot or the cabin crew ) " which tend to push people to think that the commander can " force " all the other crew members to accept to extend the flight duty.
This is wrong ( according to me )
If a cabin crew member tells me that she/he is not fit enough to perform the extended flight duty how can I decide to extend it ?
And what had happened already a few times is that the captain just announced to the crew that they were going into discretion without asking them how they were feeling !!!
So let say now that an incident or an emergency occurs and the crew fail to respond properly to the situation ; when interviewed by the company/GCAA about their failure to properly respond to the situation they state that they were not fit to operate but the captain force them to go into discretion…
How will the captain justify his decision ?
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 14:30
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,348
Stand them down .
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 18:51
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Originally Posted by dubaigong View Post
Fliion ,

In the OMA it states " an aircraft commander may , at his discretion , and after taking note of the circumstances of the other members of the crew , extend an FDP beyond that permitted… "
But we have received an aircrew notice that says " discretion is authorized or rejected by the commander ALONE ( not the co-pilot or the cabin crew ) " which tend to push people to think that the commander can " force " all the other crew members to accept to extend the flight duty.
This is wrong ( according to me )
If a cabin crew member tells me that she/he is not fit enough to perform the extended flight duty how can I decide to extend it ?
And what had happened already a few times is that the captain just announced to the crew that they were going into discretion without asking them how they were feeling !!!
So let say now that an incident or an emergency occurs and the crew fail to respond properly to the situation ; when interviewed by the company/GCAA about their failure to properly respond to the situation they state that they were not fit to operate but the captain force them to go into discretion…
How will the captain justify his decision ?
Bud - I’m not suggesting what is right or wrong, merely trying to establish based on your first post whether you have to “ask” as you mentioned. You do not.

if a captain, for whatever reason, (every skipper/situation different)decides to go into discretion and a crew member is not fit to fly - it’s pretty simple - they can dial 2 there and then or take a seat or call SOS - whatever.

Not judging either way - but I’ll be FC¥€£ed if I’m taking a vote - but hey that’s just me.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 19:00
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 71
Coming as an ex EK Captain with substantial capital reserves makes Ryanair actually a good place, because you can have the confidence to say "I ain't doing that, and if you don't like it, you can stick your job". So by and large, they don't try it on when they know that, so I have only needed to say that once in several years. You will also have the experience and commercial nowse to make good operation decisions and get the job done efficiently and stress free - frankly some of the minimum experience home grown crews can be pretty immature and do some pretty stupid things, and I think they thereby sometimes attract management attention and get marked out for harsh treatment (that's not in reference to the discretion incident which I'm not sufficiently acquainted with). You are likely to get a base close to where you want to be, and contrary to the duff information above, it's extremely unlikely to change against your will (unless it closes or dramatically downsizes). Positioning for out of base flying is on work days, but hotels are crap and actually getting some operational support on the phone is damn near impossible - really beyond a joke.

But overall, and very much IMHO, I recommend the move.

Last edited by midnight cruiser; 29th Jan 2019 at 10:49.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 20:24
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Blandings
Posts: 678
Tell me
where are you driving
Midnight cruiser ?
Where is your bounty
Of fortune and fame ?
I am another
Gentleman loser
Driving for Ryan
Or somewhere the same

Last edited by Dropp the Pilot; 15th Jul 2018 at 20:30. Reason: editing
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 20:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 71
The airline world we used to know ... no longer exists, Thelonius my old friend.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 01:08
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 37000
Posts: 15
Aja
When all my dime dancin' is through
I run to you
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 01:31
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Blandings
Posts: 678
We're a fool to do their dirty work

but

I'm never going back to my old school
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 10:28
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Dubai
Posts: 10
Haha you guys are good. But yeah reality is that European aviation has, is, and will be screwed for a long time by the likes of EASY RYAN WIZZ. For an ex EK driver Ryan looks best actually due to there rostering. Who cares about the bullshit pension and BALPA at Easyjet and the likes. They still work these 20 and 30 somethings into the ground, BALPA or not. To bad they do not do part time for DEC at Ryan!!!!
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 15:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by midnight cruiser View Post
You are likely to get a base close to where you want to be, and contrary to the duff information above, it's extremely unlikely to change against your will (unless it closes or dramatically downsizes).
I agree with most of your post but may I ask how long have you been at FR to make a comment like that?

There are plenty of examples of base closures and dramatic downsizing. And don’t forget Ryanair will conveniently ‘fall out’ with a base/government/agency just to suit downsizing they were always planning to do anyway. Glasgow base closes this autumn “due to Brexit” when actually they’re just short of crew.

Can you confirm that the Glasgow crews are all being helped to move to another convenient base of their choice (and/or other examples?) Because in my experience they would try to move you as far away/inconvenient as possible (deliberately just to be evil,) screw you with a new contract in the process and tell you to f*** off if you don’t like it. I personally know families that had their lives ruined by such actions. One example was an Irish guy who had to move his entire family from Shannon to Alicante because the base was going from 4 aircraft to 1. After a few months FR fell out with ALC airport because of airbridge/boarding issues. Base was cut from 11 to 2 and poor guy was left commuting from Charleroi to Alicante On effectively a 7/2 roster.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 15:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 71
Read it literally - it was a conditional statement. I didn't say it was extremely unlikely that your base would close or downsize; I said a forced base change was extremely unlikely if neither of those things happen - and all I wrote was only applicable to DECs who are in a fortunate position to be able to walk away if they so choose. Choosing a very small regional base does indeed carry the risk of a downsize, but a choice of say MAD or CIA should be fairly safe.
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