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Old 10th Dec 2017, 03:20
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They could still have flown the RNAV Visual 13L which has identical track as the VOR approach and it would have given them guidance all the way to the runway.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 04:03
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Originally Posted by DuneMentat
They could still have flown the RNAV Visual 13L which has identical track as the VOR approach and it would have given them guidance all the way to the runway.
Again, not all carriers and fleets have this one. Is it available on the EK A380? In some FMS's the waypoints seem to be the same as the GPS 13L in the box.

I think it is another authorization required (AR) situation like the FMS Bridge Visual 28R of recent Air Canada taxiway fame at SFO.

I've run into traps in the past trying to use an FMS overlay approach to fly a legacy VOR where everything is the same except for one altitude or turn point.

Looks like Moscow and Kennedy will be on the 2018 EK sim profiles.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 04:20
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New York ATC is some of the best in the world; scapegoating the controllers is definitely misplaced, when its quite evident that the UAE suffers from a significant lack of training and ability to learn from its mistakes. Spoken by someone who has been based in both arenas....

Notice, US pilots aren't flying fatigued anymore and receive non-jeopardy AQP training and are overseen by a governmental body that is able to critique itself and its own rules. EK and FZ will continue to threaten their passengers safety until they learn from their mistakes by developing truthful self-reflection and proper CRM application.

Don't blame New York controllers because you don't know how to fly a visual approach...
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 04:44
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Originally Posted by OLVpilot
New York ATC is some of the best in the world; scapegoating the controllers is definitely misplaced, when its quite evident that the UAE suffers from a significant lack of training and ability to learn from its mistakes. Spoken by someone who has been based in both arenas....

Notice, US pilots aren't flying fatigued anymore and receive non-jeopardy AQP training and are overseen by a governmental body that is able to critique itself and its own rules. EK and FZ will continue to threaten their passengers safety until they learn from their mistakes by developing truthful self-reflection and proper CRM application.

Don't blame New York controllers because you don't know how to fly a visual approach...
OLV, are you Delta Management by any chance?
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 05:02
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OLV stop making yourself sound like self proclaimed expert.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 05:09
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OLVpilot,

First off do you actually fly outside the US ? If so, you would realise just how bad NY ATC actually is, barking off instructions at high speed and not waiting for a response for example, another would be multiple runway changes at the last minute. If you want really excellent ATC I would suggest you watch and see how London Gatwick do it during the rush hour. And before you ask yes I do fly LH all over the world to.
As for assumption and I quote "Notice, US pilots aren't flying fatigued anymore " I think a fair few of your fellow countrymen would disagree with you.
You're not related to the Irish Leprechaun who runs Ryanair are you, he said something similar about his pilots, had to backtrack on that one when it was pointed out that it was BS.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 05:30
  #27 (permalink)  
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The holes in the cheese continue to align...the solution????..eye monitoring gizmos in the sim.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 07:02
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I’m surprised this didn’t happen earlier.

How come nobody talks about the obvious?

For the last 3 years there have been 482940250 versions on how to fly this approach on the A380, supported by 274829 training videos that were wrong each and everytime and every trainer teaching a different way to fly it.

Anyone gonna take responsibility for it this time????????
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 07:42
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28 replies and no one has mentioned fatigue yet ? It would be interesting to know the flight and duty times for the crew for the previous couple of weeks.

We all know Emirates pilots are worked to excess and some are physically ill because of it, so incidents like this shouldn't come as a surprise.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 07:58
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Originally Posted by Metro man
28 replies and no one has mentioned fatigue yet ? It would be interesting to know the flight and duty times for the crew for the previous couple of weeks.

We all know Emirates pilots are worked to excess and some are physically ill because of it, so incidents like this shouldn't come as a surprise.
When I said the holes in the cheese continue to align..one of the holes is fatiguing rosters..90 hours plus a month..not including factoring...we all know what the holes are...the only ones that don't know are those on the third floor who use fear and a punitive culture to try and keep the show on the road...
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 08:06
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Although I agree that there has to be a better way to get in to these runways with today's technology, for now, this is what we have. Remember, this approach was designed for steam gauge airplanes and they safely made it work for longer than GPS and RNAV have been around. The difference is, back then, they knew how to look out a window, hell they used the stars, lol. Point being is, if you are going fly this approach, remember when it was designed, and the fact it was designed to look out the window and be visual. If you brief the visual cues, it should help protect you from picking up the wrong runway.
You raise a good point, namely that safety does not necessarily increase with more sophisticated equipment. Especially when decorated with some of the more stupid sops and techniques of chiefs and trainers who would have better stayed under their rocks or dunes.

Then you raise a somewhat less valuable point by emphasising that more briefings would protect us from stuff ups.
I don't know if you have ever been exposed to the ek-austronaut-briefings, but they did certainly not help the last two years. Some common sense in flying, training and managing however might lead to more looking out of the window and realising that the stuff happens out there, in reality and not on the fancy displays inside or in the increasingly grotesque excursions into sim-pams that seem to be the only defence ek training has left to counter the endemic fear induced fixation on more and more useless sops and checks.


What bothers me more is a somewhat new phenomenon. In many of the recent incidents, there were some quite experienced pilots involved. We complain a lot about the low experience coming into the company and the higher one leaving, but now why the above?
There seems to be a lot of 'i am tired of ....' or 'i am fed up with ....' especially among us older ek pilots which can lead to a certain form of negligence. This might be an explanation and points to where we can look into the mirror and vow to not let this happen. I complain a lot about the mis-management around here, this might then be a least one field where i can raise my own game again, as i certainly do not exempt myself from that danger. I definitely do not expect any substantial change from above, so to that extent allow me to copy what i wrote on another thread some days ago (before 207):

Even being quite old, experienced and somewhat immune to this aviation bs, i still get a dreadful vibe when opening the portal and having to look at the initial picture and dredge any notification of some impending rgts or sims.
They have really succeeded in taking out the last tiny drop of trust.


Stay safe out there
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 09:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Odins Raven
Is that RNP AR not authorised for EK on 13L???

We sure flew it enough times on sim checks for practice during my time in the company.
The A380 isn't RNP AR approved. Only the B777 at EK.


Originally Posted by Airbubba
Again, not all carriers and fleets have this one. Is it available on the EK A380? In some FMS's the waypoints seem to be the same as the GPS 13L in the box.

I think it is another authorization required (AR) situation like the FMS Bridge Visual 28R of recent Air Canada taxiway fame at SFO.

I've run into traps in the past trying to use an FMS overlay approach to fly a legacy VOR where everything is the same except for one altitude or turn point.

Looks like Moscow and Kennedy will be on the 2018 EK sim profiles.
RNAV Visual 13L is available for the A380 at EK.

EK created confusion by having first the RNAV Visual 13L as preferred approach for EK while at the same time training the RNP AR 13L in the simulator when it was pending approval. The RNP AR was never approved for the A380, so EK created their own RNAV overlay for the Canarsie 13L with lateral navigation until the threshold of 13L and a continuous descent from 1500' at D2.2 after CRI. If you start to descent at or just after CRI, you will end up at 800' at DMYHL, which is still 4NM from the threshold of 13L. If you keep descending, you end up in a similar situation as EK207.

It's not a difficult approach, but you have to know what you are doing. And instead of letting pilots be pilots and letting the pilot decide on how he wants to fly the plane, EK dictates in a long and confusing text how to fly this approach.

Just like EK dictates a lot of things which prevent the pilots making any decision themselves. Even though the EK way might be more complicated and might make less sense, they don't seem to encourage common sense and they are creating confusion with poorly written policies.
They are creating pilots who will blindly follow anything they are being told because of fear of getting into trouble.
But of course, according to management, there is no reason to fear!
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 09:54
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What the hell has ATC to do with this incident?
Oh wait....
when the aircraft descended below minimums prompting tower to warn EK-207 "you appear to be extremely low on approach"
Incident: Emirates A388 at New York on Dec 4th 2017, at about 200 feet in the middle of turn to runway 13L
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 09:55
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Every time I do JFK in the simulator I get taught something different, very often by an instructor who is confused as to what is the correct procedure for this specific phase. We are so over-endowed with procedures, standard calls, techniques and FCU fiddling that we have turned what is a very simple approach and all other NPA's into an 800 pound gorilla, waiting to fall out of a tree.
No doubt the independent Fleet investigation will hone in on exactly what procedure was not followed, once everyone involved in the event have been punished, focus will rapidly shift to the next big event. My sympathies to the crew involved, may the force be with you.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 10:08
  #35 (permalink)  
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When I joined EK, I could not believe how complicated they made it to fly a NPA in LNAV and VS. I always thought it was an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 10:48
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To all you guys that shouts at us ( Emirates), I want JFK ATC to take note of this as well as airbubba we fly 141 destinations everyday. It is very hard to comform and abide by all your rules and non standard ICAO that you guys throw at us.. I have flow into the guts of earth, and never experience what I experience with you guys. Personal experience is, I fly into JFK twice a year. And with all due respect JFK is the worst atc I ever had to deal with in my 22years of long haul flying because of your non standard RT. A note to your managers.
As an Emirates pilot, you are required to be ready to fly at any one of our destinations within 30 min. You as atc is sitting in your tower, so may I please ask that you take this into consideration . So please treat us accordingly.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 10:50
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I would like to see airbubba doing what we doing.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 11:20
  #38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by TSHEKUDU
To all you guys that shouts at us ( Emirates), I want JFK ATC to take note of this as well as airbubba we fly 141 destinations everyday. It is very hard to comform and abide by all your rules and non standard ICAO that you guys throw at us.. I have flow into the guts of earth, and never experience what I experience with you guys. Personal experience is, I fly into JFK twice a year. And with all due respect JFK is the worst atc I ever had to deal with in my 22years of long haul flying because of your non standard RT. A note to your managers.
As an Emirates pilot, you are required to be ready to fly at any one of our destinations within 30 min. You as atc is sitting in your tower, so may I please ask that you take this into consideration . So please treat us accordingly.
I take your point..and agree..but in this case, I fail to see what ATC had to do with it.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 11:21
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JFK ATC is definitely the unfriendliest and most arrogant ATC in the world, but I disagree that they are the worst. Apart from their non-standard phraseology, they are doing a good job in dealing with a lot of traffic in a congested airspace in my opinion.

They aren't as good as UK or German ATC, but they are absolutely not the worst.

Anyway, this incident isn't due to ATC, but it's another messed up approach by EK pilots. Unfortunately the reasons why these incident keep happening aren't being dealt with. The easiest is to blame the pilots and that is what EK management will do again.
More checking, more punishment, more complicated procedures and policies and even more restrictions in manual flying is what I fear will be the result.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 11:39
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Originally Posted by DuneMentat
They could still have flown the RNAV Visual 13L which has identical track as the VOR approach and it would have given them guidance all the way to the runway.
RNAV Visual to both RWY 13L/R currently not authorized:

NOTAM
(A1655/17) - SPECIAL JOHN F KENNEDY INTL,NEW YORK, NY.
RNAV VISUAL RWY 13L, AMDT 2...
RNAV VISUAL RWY 13R, AMDT 2...
PROCEDURE NA.
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