EK207 Jfk
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mars
Posts: 527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flown with the augmenting FO was impressed with his professionalism.
207 is pretty hard for the augmenting crew. You are sent to the bunk at about 3.30pm body clock, roll around for 6 1/2 hours then operate just when you want to go to sleep until about 4am body. The approach to JFK is flown right at the bottom of the circadian cycle. Last time I flew the operating trip, the augmenters tried to stay engaged but woke up when the gear went down. I think that is pretty standard, it’s also why we fly with augmented crews!
How they can be blamed for screwing up when expected to be fatigued is beyond me. It is a very worrying precedent.
207 is pretty hard for the augmenting crew. You are sent to the bunk at about 3.30pm body clock, roll around for 6 1/2 hours then operate just when you want to go to sleep until about 4am body. The approach to JFK is flown right at the bottom of the circadian cycle. Last time I flew the operating trip, the augmenters tried to stay engaged but woke up when the gear went down. I think that is pretty standard, it’s also why we fly with augmented crews!
How they can be blamed for screwing up when expected to be fatigued is beyond me. It is a very worrying precedent.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ex-DXB
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How they can be blamed for screwing up when expected to be fatigued is beyond me. It is a very worrying precedent.
I can't remember the last time I was truly awake for TO or Landing as augment. I fly my 'on duty' period flawlessly but when I come off duty I'm not always in the zone due to the timings.
Also really hard to reach the Take Over PB from where I'm sitting and if I did the outcome would probably be worse.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Orient
Age: 67
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JFK ATC and Canarsie, what a combo.
My Canarsie story....
I was sent to the Holding Point at 13L for departure (Canarsie approaches were in use).
I spent the next 30 minutes watching the air show as the heavies flung themselves at the runway.
A little Commuter Jetstream appeared at the Holding Point on the opposite side of the runway and was given barked instructions to line up after a landing Air France A330 on short finals, and be ready immediate.
Air France rolled onto finals and touched down - a bit long. The Jetstream lined up and held.
ATC began yelling at Air France to get off the runway - the reason being a Speedbird B747 now rolling onto finals!
As AF finally was clearing, the Jetstream was ordered to “stand up your throttles and release brakes when I tell you” (what kinda BS!). He was then cleared immediate take-off, and started rolling. We watched in amazement - the BA jumbo was now at about 200’.
The Jetstream probably got to 50kts only, then the shout came for him to “abort your takeoff immediately” followed by another order for the BA to GoAround. Which he did, from about 150’ - spectacular! I’m sure the BA crew knew they’d have to throw it away, but were hoping?
So now we had just seen an RTO and a low GA.
With the Jetstream still on the RWY the next up was an American Airlines MD-11 peeling around the Canarsie corner onto finals for 13L.
“American, do you have 13R in sight?”
“Affirmative sir”
“OK you’re cleared land 13R!”
American peels off toward 13R, then quickly realises the staggered runway is closer and he’s too high and too close. He calls Going Around.
Two GAs and an RTO in the space of a minute.
Gobsmacking.
But that’s Kennedy...
My Canarsie story....
I was sent to the Holding Point at 13L for departure (Canarsie approaches were in use).
I spent the next 30 minutes watching the air show as the heavies flung themselves at the runway.
A little Commuter Jetstream appeared at the Holding Point on the opposite side of the runway and was given barked instructions to line up after a landing Air France A330 on short finals, and be ready immediate.
Air France rolled onto finals and touched down - a bit long. The Jetstream lined up and held.
ATC began yelling at Air France to get off the runway - the reason being a Speedbird B747 now rolling onto finals!
As AF finally was clearing, the Jetstream was ordered to “stand up your throttles and release brakes when I tell you” (what kinda BS!). He was then cleared immediate take-off, and started rolling. We watched in amazement - the BA jumbo was now at about 200’.
The Jetstream probably got to 50kts only, then the shout came for him to “abort your takeoff immediately” followed by another order for the BA to GoAround. Which he did, from about 150’ - spectacular! I’m sure the BA crew knew they’d have to throw it away, but were hoping?
So now we had just seen an RTO and a low GA.
With the Jetstream still on the RWY the next up was an American Airlines MD-11 peeling around the Canarsie corner onto finals for 13L.
“American, do you have 13R in sight?”
“Affirmative sir”
“OK you’re cleared land 13R!”
American peels off toward 13R, then quickly realises the staggered runway is closer and he’s too high and too close. He calls Going Around.
Two GAs and an RTO in the space of a minute.
Gobsmacking.
But that’s Kennedy...
The whole aviation industry is becoming very very stressed.
The can do, win at all cost, attitude is making everybody on edge. You are no longer enjoying your work, or contributing usefully to the world. But slaving for the people raking in big dollars at the expense of your safety, health and well being.
Fly safe and happy.
My two cents
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Orient
Age: 67
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The distance/altitude checks are based on DME from CRI so pretty straight forward. And yes you can manually tune an ILS on the 380. It's really not necessary though considering you already have a vertical deviation indication on the PFD with the RNAV selected in the box.
Before getting into the slot on short finals you would get all kinds of ILS deviation warnings or glideslope warnings which will be a great distaction. Besides, some airlines require long explanations for ignoring GPWS glideslope warnings. And if you have a very anal aussie pm( pilot monitoring ), he would insist you go around at the first hint of glideslope warnings...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Orient
Age: 67
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Tuning the ILS13L can help but it will bring lots of other problems before you hit short finals on the slot.
Before getting into the slot on short finals you would get all kinds of ILS deviation warnings or glideslope warnings which will be a great distaction. Besides, some airlines require long explanations for ignoring GPWS glideslope warnings. And if you have a very anal aussie pm( pilot monitoring ), he would insist you go around at the first hint of glideslope warnings...
Before getting into the slot on short finals you would get all kinds of ILS deviation warnings or glideslope warnings which will be a great distaction. Besides, some airlines require long explanations for ignoring GPWS glideslope warnings. And if you have a very anal aussie pm( pilot monitoring ), he would insist you go around at the first hint of glideslope warnings...
And speaking of raw data, were these guys shooting a VOR approach using a non-approved in-house RNAV profile (either the non-approved AR RNAV-X or the canceled by notam RNAV Visual 13L) in the box? Is VOR data displayed in the A380 in this case?
I'm not questioning the nav accuracy of a modern plane but since the FAA is taking a look, is this legal? I've questioned similar kludges in the past but been assured that as long as you can monitor raw data to insure compliance it is OK.
Also, did the crew get an EGWPS warning before or after the tower controller alerted them to the low altitude?
Well you said it right there: alert v warning...
GS mode off. Simples even for this Aussie pm
GS mode off. Simples even for this Aussie pm
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bkk
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whether its a WARNING or ALERT is just semantics.You are LOW and should never ever have a FLY UP indication unless you have abandoned the ILS for any reason AND VERBALISED THIS.The correct action is to either turn off the ILS or announce "continuing visually" using purely visual cues to landing...and ignoring the ILS and its associated aurals from the GPWS no?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 37000
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Glideslope" is a GPWS CAUTION.
"Whether it is a WARNING or ALERT (sic)..." is not just semantics. The difference between CAUTION and WARNING dictates the response. So yes, I agree, terms are important.
"Whether it is a WARNING or ALERT (sic)..." is not just semantics. The difference between CAUTION and WARNING dictates the response. So yes, I agree, terms are important.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Isn't 'Too Low, Terrain' a Mode 4 caution? And 'Terrain Ahead, Pull Up' a Mode 2B warning?
short flights long nights
Really, was no one looking out the window?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: evicted
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Window
This is one piece of equipment that is not promoted by management.
Matter of fact, they have deleted all the visual landmarks from the 13L approach plate, so even if you're looking out the window, you have nothing to compare it to. Unless, of course, you have a printed copy of the VOR chart with all the landmarks on it.
None of the emails in the aftermath of recent events mentioned the window as a tool to prevent similar occurrences. Their only solution is more SOPs (no pun intended SOP :-P )
short flights long nights
This is one piece of equipment that is not promoted by management.
Matter of fact, they have deleted all the visual landmarks from the 13L approach plate, so even if you're looking out the window, you have nothing to compare it to. Unless, of course, you have a printed copy of the VOR chart with all the landmarks on it.
None of the emails in the aftermath of recent events mentioned the window as a tool to prevent similar occurrences. Their only solution is more SOPs (no pun intended SOP :-P )
Matter of fact, they have deleted all the visual landmarks from the 13L approach plate, so even if you're looking out the window, you have nothing to compare it to. Unless, of course, you have a printed copy of the VOR chart with all the landmarks on it.
None of the emails in the aftermath of recent events mentioned the window as a tool to prevent similar occurrences. Their only solution is more SOPs (no pun intended SOP :-P )
It structural.
EK is so focused on "protecting the brand" at any price that they have become afraid to let pilots do "pilot type sh*t".
Instead, they put in SOP after SOP, relying on the technology of Mr Airbus, Boeing, Collins or Honeywell to save the day every time.
So they now have a whole group of magenta line following, FMC "heads down" programmers, SOP followers, who are so worried about the next warning letter and the future of them and their families, they are too afraid to look out a window, grab the controls and FLY the FREAKING aeroplane.
The first thing EK should do is make TRAINING "a no jeopardy". Forget the Fcuking PAMS.
If some one says..I want to try a single engine visual Canasty approach, let them do it without fear of repercussions if they mess it up. If the get it wrong the first time, TRAIN them, until they get it right...for God's sake..it ain't rocket science!
Until serious steps are taken, to let Pilots just be Pilots..not slaves to the FCOM, the rot will continue..IMHO