B777 Emergency DXB
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wnp
Don't forget for a second: It's an EK thread ....
JAArule
No suggestion not to press TOGA, but if it is inhibited, surprise, surprise, it will not engage! So if you're short in survival time, a manual shove should prove a tad more successful .... sorry, that's how i see it.
Believe me, I am constantly re-assessing my career choice, with our rosters ... but back to the thread:
I admit i had an event when i was 100% sure having pressed TOGA, but it was not engaged. The reason was that by shoving the levers forward, the angle of the TOGA switches becomes quite acute and apparently i did not push down enough. Now you will most probably blame me and tell me to change career again, but i guess this could happen to others as well. What saved me was the manual shove forward and leaving my hands on the levers, because i realised it through tactile feedback (!) at the same time the PM announced no TOGA and i pressed again, with success this time.
See why i propagate moves first, modes after?
Don't forget for a second: It's an EK thread ....
JAArule
Or are you suggesting there's no need to press TOGA? TOGA needs to be pressed regardless and if you can't handle that then you may need to re-assess your choice of career. Sorry but that's how it is.
Believe me, I am constantly re-assessing my career choice, with our rosters ... but back to the thread:
I admit i had an event when i was 100% sure having pressed TOGA, but it was not engaged. The reason was that by shoving the levers forward, the angle of the TOGA switches becomes quite acute and apparently i did not push down enough. Now you will most probably blame me and tell me to change career again, but i guess this could happen to others as well. What saved me was the manual shove forward and leaving my hands on the levers, because i realised it through tactile feedback (!) at the same time the PM announced no TOGA and i pressed again, with success this time.
See why i propagate moves first, modes after?
Last edited by glofish; 10th Aug 2016 at 12:42.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Find it interesting that the 777 has a Yoke to retain the "old school" feel of flying a plane yet is fitted with a button/switch to get full thrust....
(Gloey perhaps it was a check)
(Gloey perhaps it was a check)
Join Date: Jul 1998
Location: Hiding in the bushes.
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is more to the button than getting full thrust. It changes the mode for the flight director, subject to the constraints I mentioned in an earlier post. There is something to be said for just flying it like any other aircraft. You know, cows get big, cows get small, push the go faster levers etc.
Is the imperative not to get the aircraft clean away from the ground in some unpleasant period of uncertainty with the two pence/half pence feeling in the seat of the pants?
Is the imperative not to get the aircraft clean away from the ground in some unpleasant period of uncertainty with the two pence/half pence feeling in the seat of the pants?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: EARTH
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote: Would you not train them ,,,,, instead of failing them?
NICE REPLY Wizofoz HE is mixed up of the purpose and objective of the training tools , like the simulator , unfortunately lots of his kind in the market.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dubai
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wiz, while I fully agree with you that one must leave the hand on the thrust levers, what exactly would you accomplish by failing the candidate?
They would have to go on Day 2, extra sim, whatever to "learn it" after practicing say 2/3/4/10 times? What would this accomplish?
Why not a strong advice from your expertise as a TRE on why is so important to leave the hands on the thrust levers and give them the infamous "3"?
Not judging just asking...
They would have to go on Day 2, extra sim, whatever to "learn it" after practicing say 2/3/4/10 times? What would this accomplish?
Why not a strong advice from your expertise as a TRE on why is so important to leave the hands on the thrust levers and give them the infamous "3"?
Not judging just asking...
In a training session- yes.
In an examination-no.
In an examination-no.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: spain
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
-Ellonnagun
I'm not confused..., I've been in more than a few EK training sessions though, where it seemed , the 'trainer' was confused though........
Anyway, keep up the English classes , you are getting there.... Slowly .....
Wiz....
Point taken.
I'm not confused..., I've been in more than a few EK training sessions though, where it seemed , the 'trainer' was confused though........
Anyway, keep up the English classes , you are getting there.... Slowly .....
Wiz....
Point taken.
If you are familiar with frequent and usually reliable posters then the direction pointed to by Fullwings, Harry the cod, Wizofoz and others looks convincing. Hot and high due to positive windshear and overreliance on automatics. Poorly executed go-around not helped by various elements of the system. The report will no doubt (eventually) fill in the gaps.
The system here includes hardware, software, manuals and procedures together with other intangibles such as company culture. I like the description Prof. John Kay attributes to Martin Taylor when describing how complex systems evolve. The palladian mansion envisaged by the original designers morphs into a gothic house of horror, with turrets and crazy paving. When wading through pages of operations manual changes (mostly trivial minutae) it is easy to lose sight of what is really important.
The system here includes hardware, software, manuals and procedures together with other intangibles such as company culture. I like the description Prof. John Kay attributes to Martin Taylor when describing how complex systems evolve. The palladian mansion envisaged by the original designers morphs into a gothic house of horror, with turrets and crazy paving. When wading through pages of operations manual changes (mostly trivial minutae) it is easy to lose sight of what is really important.
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: free Europe
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all I would like to thank the brave fireman from RAK who paid the ultimate price for the safety of others. The best ones leave too early. May your family find peace.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then I would like to tell you that I was surprised to receive a FedEx envelope today with a Chairman's Najm, handsigned by HH and AAR. It was awarded post-service for great savings to the company by launching the WSJ article last year.
Great damage to the brand has been avoided since the article pushed EK to stop operating the night flights to Chennai and Trivandrum as turnarounds. Chennai 544/545 turn-around was given as an example to the WSJ and EASA, but Trivandrum 520/521 had almost identical timings.The risk assessment must have clearly shown that any incident on these pairings would have raised the question of scheduling legality. These pairings were maxed out to the minute, including check-in scam, without room for even 10 minutes adjustment of check-in times. So after years of illegal savings a little help from outside pointed the company in the right direction. Just in time.
I will be taking offers for the quite significant amount of the Najm that can be used in the crew shop. I won't be coming back soon ;-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then I would like to tell you that I was surprised to receive a FedEx envelope today with a Chairman's Najm, handsigned by HH and AAR. It was awarded post-service for great savings to the company by launching the WSJ article last year.
Great damage to the brand has been avoided since the article pushed EK to stop operating the night flights to Chennai and Trivandrum as turnarounds. Chennai 544/545 turn-around was given as an example to the WSJ and EASA, but Trivandrum 520/521 had almost identical timings.The risk assessment must have clearly shown that any incident on these pairings would have raised the question of scheduling legality. These pairings were maxed out to the minute, including check-in scam, without room for even 10 minutes adjustment of check-in times. So after years of illegal savings a little help from outside pointed the company in the right direction. Just in time.
I will be taking offers for the quite significant amount of the Najm that can be used in the crew shop. I won't be coming back soon ;-)
Last edited by in freedom; 10th Aug 2016 at 22:13.
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Escaped the sandpit 53° 32′ 9.19″ N, 9° 50′ 13.29″ E
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: JFK
Age: 53
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ellonnagun! I agree with you in terms of using the sim as a training tool,but if you look at the maneuver is question it is a pass of fail,lastly we need more "examiners like white none to uphold the "standards " not only at Ek but through the aviation to keep skies safe for all of us!
Wiz, while I fully agree with you that one must leave the hand on the thrust levers, what exactly would you accomplish by failing the candidate?
They would have to go on Day 2, extra sim, whatever to "learn it" after practicing say 2/3/4/10 times? What would this accomplish?
Why not a strong advice from your expertise as a TRE on why is so important to leave the hands on the thrust levers and give them the infamous "3"?
Not judging just asking...
They would have to go on Day 2, extra sim, whatever to "learn it" after practicing say 2/3/4/10 times? What would this accomplish?
Why not a strong advice from your expertise as a TRE on why is so important to leave the hands on the thrust levers and give them the infamous "3"?
Not judging just asking...
Now, after that failure has been assessed, I can use any remaining time to train the problem, but it remains the case that that exam on that day was failed.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bkk
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr WIZ.
As a (presumably) fellow TRE of 26 years now on heavy Jets, is it not better to TEACH/TRAIN your trainees on this issue during the LOFT/TRAINING sessions prior to the TEST session? In my mind this is POSITIVE TRAINING rather than the less effective negative training of letting them fall in big hole, FAIL then you stepping in with "remedial" training afterwards? Peter.
As a (presumably) fellow TRE of 26 years now on heavy Jets, is it not better to TEACH/TRAIN your trainees on this issue during the LOFT/TRAINING sessions prior to the TEST session? In my mind this is POSITIVE TRAINING rather than the less effective negative training of letting them fall in big hole, FAIL then you stepping in with "remedial" training afterwards? Peter.
Pete,
You are jumping to the conclusion that every system is the same as yours.
I will be assigned an examination session having never met, yet alone trained, the candidates involved, with the strict brief to conduct the exercises required and asses the performance I observe.
Of course it would be best if any deficiency in the candidates skill set was recognized and corrected before it gets to the exam, but if the reality is that my job is to asses the performance I am presented with, and that performance is clearly sub-standard, what would you have me do?
Are you prescient enough to recognize any potential deficiency in your candidates and nip it in the bud before they demonstrate it during an exam?
You are jumping to the conclusion that every system is the same as yours.
I will be assigned an examination session having never met, yet alone trained, the candidates involved, with the strict brief to conduct the exercises required and asses the performance I observe.
Of course it would be best if any deficiency in the candidates skill set was recognized and corrected before it gets to the exam, but if the reality is that my job is to asses the performance I am presented with, and that performance is clearly sub-standard, what would you have me do?
Are you prescient enough to recognize any potential deficiency in your candidates and nip it in the bud before they demonstrate it during an exam?
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dubai
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the exercise is an examination, I am acting as a GCAA delegate and am required to pass or fail the candidate based on their performance, without coaching or intervention. Failing to get the TLs to advance during a go-around (the instance that springs to mind was after failing an A/T below 200'on an LVO approach) and allowing the speed to decay to the point of an "AIR SPEED LOW" EICAS clearly does not meet a standard that passes that test.
Now, after that failure has been assessed, I can use any remaining time to train the problem, but it remains the case that that exam on that day was failed
Now, after that failure has been assessed, I can use any remaining time to train the problem, but it remains the case that that exam on that day was failed
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The 6
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cant speak for all B777, Im not sure if it is a real issue or if it is just a 'common' mistake made by the pilots.
SQ 777 that went off the runway at Munich a few years back touched down off center of the runway while conducting an autoland. The aircraft was aligned off centered because of another aircraft holding short of the runway, interfering with the autoland signals.
When the aircraft touched down off center, the captain was 100% sure that he hit the TOGA button (it could be heard in the cockpit voice recorder), but the throttle would not advance forward. Lucky for SQ, the aircraft came to a safe stop despite drifting into the grass, back on the runway and finally on the other side of the grass.
SQ 777 that went off the runway at Munich a few years back touched down off center of the runway while conducting an autoland. The aircraft was aligned off centered because of another aircraft holding short of the runway, interfering with the autoland signals.
When the aircraft touched down off center, the captain was 100% sure that he hit the TOGA button (it could be heard in the cockpit voice recorder), but the throttle would not advance forward. Lucky for SQ, the aircraft came to a safe stop despite drifting into the grass, back on the runway and finally on the other side of the grass.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 327
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems more and more that boeing APFD system logic has now 2 (dangereous) loopholes. The first one being the Asiana !hold! logic (no speed protection in hold mode), and now the unavailability of TOGA after some sort of ground logic kicks in..... Not good Mr Boeing if you ask me, especialy not now that more and more magenta kids are released on the line...Better look over your shoulder how mr Bus fixed that....
The one thing I fail to read in the past 10 pages or so, is that these guys were exhausted from the 12 hour plus duty or so in the middle of the night and the grueling rostering practices. For those on the B777, how many times have you not thought turning finals, hope all goes well here because both at the controls r only half awake.
It will be interesting to see what kind of spin ek will invent this time to avoid fixing the issue of inhumane rostering.
If they choose not to fix, surely we will have another "incident" sooner then later.
The one thing I fail to read in the past 10 pages or so, is that these guys were exhausted from the 12 hour plus duty or so in the middle of the night and the grueling rostering practices. For those on the B777, how many times have you not thought turning finals, hope all goes well here because both at the controls r only half awake.
It will be interesting to see what kind of spin ek will invent this time to avoid fixing the issue of inhumane rostering.
If they choose not to fix, surely we will have another "incident" sooner then later.