Milan-JFK assault
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With the new contracts at the US legacies and some of the increases in Asian contracts I'm not so sure EK is "well above industry average" When the AA/USA merger is complete and the new AA contract implemented there will be ~54,000 pilots in N. America with better T & C's than EK. Thats a huge block of the industry that skew's your industry average a good chunk upwards to where I think EK is now south of that figure. Especially if you go beyond pay rates and look at scheduling, real training, rigs, retirement and soft pay.
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What is a RJ145? I know of no Lagacy carrier flying a rj. And yes that includes the 9 but most likely going to the B717. Of course first year sucks but second year is almost double. With the movement there are few who sit reserve long. A few I know didn't sit a single month of reserve.
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I'm not aware of all the US packages but can compare with UK/ Europe and Australia. It's been done to death before and would be worthy of it's own thread to avoid drift. However.......
12 year seniority, 9 as Captain. LTC pay and housing allowance as bought own property. Monthly salary around 70,000 give or take including flight pay. I will not include education allowance as it's free in most countries and standards vary tremendously. As for profit share....... So, 70,000 equates to 840,000 year. Minus 5% for compulsory PF contribution and that's around $215,000. That's net so not sure what US taxes are. For UK that would be 135,000 sterling and to take that home, you'd need to be earning 20,000 sterling a month! Our senior TRE training captains would be 20-30% on top of this. So, with the potential to get command here in 5 years and you're 30-35 in age, I reckon it's a good package with good potential and stand by my above average statement. If you're going to compare with senior captains with other operators, you must factor in time to command.
As for retirement, I place 20% of my salary into the PF and have accumulated a reasonable fund. I anticipate over $1 million after 20 years service. Best of all, it can't be stolen by CEO's of Airlines claiming Chapter 11 then using my retirement fund to re paint the fleet!
Ultimately it's horses for courses. If you can find better, enjoy and good luck to you. EK and Dubai are not for everyone and I do accept that money should not be the overriding factor. It's difficult to put a value on quality of life issues and most of us I'm sure would trade a few thousand dirhams for 10 less hours per month. But, for those that don't mind the rosters and actually like Dubai, it can make for a very comfortable and financially rewarding life.
Harry
I'm not aware of all the US packages but can compare with UK/ Europe and Australia. It's been done to death before and would be worthy of it's own thread to avoid drift. However.......
12 year seniority, 9 as Captain. LTC pay and housing allowance as bought own property. Monthly salary around 70,000 give or take including flight pay. I will not include education allowance as it's free in most countries and standards vary tremendously. As for profit share....... So, 70,000 equates to 840,000 year. Minus 5% for compulsory PF contribution and that's around $215,000. That's net so not sure what US taxes are. For UK that would be 135,000 sterling and to take that home, you'd need to be earning 20,000 sterling a month! Our senior TRE training captains would be 20-30% on top of this. So, with the potential to get command here in 5 years and you're 30-35 in age, I reckon it's a good package with good potential and stand by my above average statement. If you're going to compare with senior captains with other operators, you must factor in time to command.
As for retirement, I place 20% of my salary into the PF and have accumulated a reasonable fund. I anticipate over $1 million after 20 years service. Best of all, it can't be stolen by CEO's of Airlines claiming Chapter 11 then using my retirement fund to re paint the fleet!
Ultimately it's horses for courses. If you can find better, enjoy and good luck to you. EK and Dubai are not for everyone and I do accept that money should not be the overriding factor. It's difficult to put a value on quality of life issues and most of us I'm sure would trade a few thousand dirhams for 10 less hours per month. But, for those that don't mind the rosters and actually like Dubai, it can make for a very comfortable and financially rewarding life.
Harry
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I would agree Harry except I would not include housing since:
-it is a highly risky endevour in Dubai owning property and so it is not for everyone
- while it is a 'choice' to own it skews the perspective of the package and its reality.
-if we are going to include an 'investment' such as a home then we have to include the fact that you have to put 20% of 2 million dhms or more as a downpayment. It is not insignificant since it is a risky asset, we have had one bubble burst and the IMF is warning again of issues. In the end, we should include the opportunity cost lost of what the downpayment could do elsewhere.
-take your 175,000 dhms a year, subtract 35,000 dhms for utilities (and that is conservative), 25,000 plus in fees for the property company, general maintence (I know how often I call maintenance)?????? especially as it ages, municipal fees etc. and you are at 80,000 in direct expenses.
-Then take off the cost of the interest portion which, on average, is around 6% (ridiculous) --2.5 million dhs, assume 0.5 million down, loan of 2 mill, over 10 years (which is VERY conservative since most are 15-20 years) and you interest cost is 90,000 dhms a year (more if you increase the mort length.
-so in the end, if you are lucky, you pocket 15-20,000 dhms a year from the mortgage allowance and rely totally on an increase in value for any true gain.
I'll take my 500,000 dhm downpayment, invest in a broad portfolio, almost completley limits risk and is highly liquid. I would bet that over the 10 years I'll be better off and not have dealt with any of the stress.
I think, for most people, this is the most realistic option.
Yes, I know people who made a ton of money and I know as many who are still in the hole.
But in the end, the the fact is that after expenses you'll be lucky to 'profit' 20,000 dhms from the housing allowance. Not worth it for me.
-it is a highly risky endevour in Dubai owning property and so it is not for everyone
- while it is a 'choice' to own it skews the perspective of the package and its reality.
-if we are going to include an 'investment' such as a home then we have to include the fact that you have to put 20% of 2 million dhms or more as a downpayment. It is not insignificant since it is a risky asset, we have had one bubble burst and the IMF is warning again of issues. In the end, we should include the opportunity cost lost of what the downpayment could do elsewhere.
-take your 175,000 dhms a year, subtract 35,000 dhms for utilities (and that is conservative), 25,000 plus in fees for the property company, general maintence (I know how often I call maintenance)?????? especially as it ages, municipal fees etc. and you are at 80,000 in direct expenses.
-Then take off the cost of the interest portion which, on average, is around 6% (ridiculous) --2.5 million dhs, assume 0.5 million down, loan of 2 mill, over 10 years (which is VERY conservative since most are 15-20 years) and you interest cost is 90,000 dhms a year (more if you increase the mort length.
-so in the end, if you are lucky, you pocket 15-20,000 dhms a year from the mortgage allowance and rely totally on an increase in value for any true gain.
I'll take my 500,000 dhm downpayment, invest in a broad portfolio, almost completley limits risk and is highly liquid. I would bet that over the 10 years I'll be better off and not have dealt with any of the stress.
I think, for most people, this is the most realistic option.
Yes, I know people who made a ton of money and I know as many who are still in the hole.
But in the end, the the fact is that after expenses you'll be lucky to 'profit' 20,000 dhms from the housing allowance. Not worth it for me.
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As I said, horses for courses. If we take Trader's approach, knock off 15,000 a month. That brings it down to 660,000 a year ($180,000) net with free housing and no bills. Either way, it's a good package.
As an aside, there are always several camps for the buy/not to buy in Dubai. Most mortgages require deposits of around 20% whichever Country you live in. 4.25% was my rate, half fixed for the lifetime of the mortgage. The EK allowance covers the interest, community fees and DEWA and some of the capital. The majority of the mortgage is out of my pocket but it's like having an interest free loan for 15 years. Also, prices rose 35% in the last 12 months. That's not 35% of your deposit, that's 35% of the house value. On a house costing say 4 million, that's an increase of 1,400,000 in a year. That's not a bad return on your 800,000 deposit.
Of course, you need to 'cash in the gain' to benefit. No good if you intend living here for another 10 years and watch the rollercoaster of the Dubai boom or bust ride! If you are here for the ride, just make sure you get off at the right point!
Apologies for thread drift, back to Milan!
Harry
As an aside, there are always several camps for the buy/not to buy in Dubai. Most mortgages require deposits of around 20% whichever Country you live in. 4.25% was my rate, half fixed for the lifetime of the mortgage. The EK allowance covers the interest, community fees and DEWA and some of the capital. The majority of the mortgage is out of my pocket but it's like having an interest free loan for 15 years. Also, prices rose 35% in the last 12 months. That's not 35% of your deposit, that's 35% of the house value. On a house costing say 4 million, that's an increase of 1,400,000 in a year. That's not a bad return on your 800,000 deposit.
Of course, you need to 'cash in the gain' to benefit. No good if you intend living here for another 10 years and watch the rollercoaster of the Dubai boom or bust ride! If you are here for the ride, just make sure you get off at the right point!
Apologies for thread drift, back to Milan!
Harry
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Fatbus,
I've never flown an rj so I'm really sorry if I don't know their identifiers. I've commuted on a handful of them and I didn't pay much attention. I can tell if its made in the jungle or the tundra though and that is a far as it goes. Rather fill the hard drive with more important things like sports, music and bourbon. I came here with full intention to return when the hiring wave started. It just works out nicely that the contracts have already had some pleasant increases with future hikes being good as well.
I've never flown an rj so I'm really sorry if I don't know their identifiers. I've commuted on a handful of them and I didn't pay much attention. I can tell if its made in the jungle or the tundra though and that is a far as it goes. Rather fill the hard drive with more important things like sports, music and bourbon. I came here with full intention to return when the hiring wave started. It just works out nicely that the contracts have already had some pleasant increases with future hikes being good as well.
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I don't think anyone tried to say that the EK slaves get paid less than other competitors in the industry. But if you think you don't earn it, you've done a brilliant job of self-deception.
The observation was that being able to obtain cheap labour with zero regulation, is a massive competitive advantage. It seems that Harry is more interested in rationalizing that by waving his paystub around.
A highly-paid slave is still a slave. Or to put it another way, a highly-paid hooker still gets scr$wed.
92 hours and zero control over rosters, with vindictive measures in place to ensure no satisfaction, is no substitute for X number of dirhams/dollars. The bank account doesn't make you "free", even if the number on the screen accrues marginally faster than at Delta or wherever. Hopefully the million bucks will be worth 20 years gone in the "comfort" (?!) of the desert.
(Aside: Depending on circumstance the housing allowance gain can be realized without the risk and illiquidity of buying!)
What were we talking about again?!
The observation was that being able to obtain cheap labour with zero regulation, is a massive competitive advantage. It seems that Harry is more interested in rationalizing that by waving his paystub around.
A highly-paid slave is still a slave. Or to put it another way, a highly-paid hooker still gets scr$wed.
92 hours and zero control over rosters, with vindictive measures in place to ensure no satisfaction, is no substitute for X number of dirhams/dollars. The bank account doesn't make you "free", even if the number on the screen accrues marginally faster than at Delta or wherever. Hopefully the million bucks will be worth 20 years gone in the "comfort" (?!) of the desert.
(Aside: Depending on circumstance the housing allowance gain can be realized without the risk and illiquidity of buying!)
What were we talking about again?!
Last edited by nolimitholdem; 12th Oct 2013 at 13:17.
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Why all this talk about slaves?
In some way we are all slaves, if you want to put it that way.
You are a slave of the state when for the first 10-15 days off the month all you make it you tax money.
You are a slave of the bank when you work to pay your mortgage..
I am a slave of my own ambition.
You are wife slave everyday...
In some way we are all slaves, if you want to put it that way.
You are a slave of the state when for the first 10-15 days off the month all you make it you tax money.
You are a slave of the bank when you work to pay your mortgage..
I am a slave of my own ambition.
You are wife slave everyday...
Last edited by Payscale; 12th Oct 2013 at 13:56.
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Noimitholdem
I'm not sure who's the bigger idiot, me for waving around my paycheck and making a go of it or you for staying here constantly bitching and moaning. I'm here because I couldn't stand being a slave to the millions of immigrants and lazy arses back in my home Country who do sweet FA because the likes of me gave almost 50% of my salary to pay for it all!
Despite the few hidden and subtle taxes here, I'm a damn sight better off than before. I don't give a fig what you call it, all I know is that it provides bloody well for me and my family. Earning 70,000 a month is good money whichever way you cut it. If you think otherwise, then you're in desperate need of a reality check!
Harry
I'm not sure who's the bigger idiot, me for waving around my paycheck and making a go of it or you for staying here constantly bitching and moaning. I'm here because I couldn't stand being a slave to the millions of immigrants and lazy arses back in my home Country who do sweet FA because the likes of me gave almost 50% of my salary to pay for it all!
Despite the few hidden and subtle taxes here, I'm a damn sight better off than before. I don't give a fig what you call it, all I know is that it provides bloody well for me and my family. Earning 70,000 a month is good money whichever way you cut it. If you think otherwise, then you're in desperate need of a reality check!
Harry
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Back on topic, what would happen if a US carrier applied for New York-CDG-DXB service? Or New York-MXP-DXB? Odds are, it would be rejected. And even more likely, the Air France or Italian pilots' unions would be howling. How is that any different than Moak crying and making noise? He really only has one job -- protecting his members' best interests (although it is debatable how well he really does that...). And, as a union leader, who really cares what he says? Let him whine and cry. Globalization is here to stay in most industries -- the transportation sector is no different (alliances, code shares, etc). Moak can't stop the inevitable.
And, if he really is as smart as people say, he realizes that he can't stop it. Which makes him as equally arrogant and corrupt as people say since that would mean he's just spouting crap to rile up the members and protect his cushy position (and all the bennies that come with it...).
And, if he really is as smart as people say, he realizes that he can't stop it. Which makes him as equally arrogant and corrupt as people say since that would mean he's just spouting crap to rile up the members and protect his cushy position (and all the bennies that come with it...).
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Back on topic, what would happen if a US carrier applied for New York-CDG-DXB service? Or New York-MXP-DXB? Odds are, it would be rejected.
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ALPA....Talk about the pot and the kettle, from Open Skies:
"The US Government’s Open Skies policy has endorsed the concept of fifth freedom operations since its inception in the 1990s. Providing carriers with the commercial flexibility to operate fifths if market conditions warrant is a standard element of all US Open Skies agreements, and US carriers led by Delta at Tokyo Narita avail themselves of the opportunity to rely on them.
Delta’s extensive fifth freedom routes in Asia include daily services between Tokyo Narita and Bangkok, Beijing, Hong Kong, Manila, Shanghai, Singapore and Taipei; and five weekly services between Nagoya and Manila.
Fifth freedom intermediate and beyond operations between
Europe and the US are not unusual
• Singapore Airlines (Singapore-Frankfurt-JFK, Singapore-Moscow-Houston) • Jet Airways (Mumbai-Brussels-Newark)
• Kuwait Airways (Kuwait-London Heathrow-JFK)
• Pakistan International Airlines (Karachi-Lahore-Manchester-JFK)
• Air New Zealand (Auckland-Los Angeles-London Heathrow) • Air Tahiti Nui (Papeete-Los Angeles-Paris CDG)
• Uzbekistan Airways (Tashkent-Riga-JFK)"
Why nobody is taking DAL seriously...otherwise they would need to shut their Tokyo op down.
f.
"The US Government’s Open Skies policy has endorsed the concept of fifth freedom operations since its inception in the 1990s. Providing carriers with the commercial flexibility to operate fifths if market conditions warrant is a standard element of all US Open Skies agreements, and US carriers led by Delta at Tokyo Narita avail themselves of the opportunity to rely on them.
Delta’s extensive fifth freedom routes in Asia include daily services between Tokyo Narita and Bangkok, Beijing, Hong Kong, Manila, Shanghai, Singapore and Taipei; and five weekly services between Nagoya and Manila.
Fifth freedom intermediate and beyond operations between
Europe and the US are not unusual
• Singapore Airlines (Singapore-Frankfurt-JFK, Singapore-Moscow-Houston) • Jet Airways (Mumbai-Brussels-Newark)
• Kuwait Airways (Kuwait-London Heathrow-JFK)
• Pakistan International Airlines (Karachi-Lahore-Manchester-JFK)
• Air New Zealand (Auckland-Los Angeles-London Heathrow) • Air Tahiti Nui (Papeete-Los Angeles-Paris CDG)
• Uzbekistan Airways (Tashkent-Riga-JFK)"
Why nobody is taking DAL seriously...otherwise they would need to shut their Tokyo op down.
f.
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Filion,
I think you are confusing the goals and concerns of ALPA versus DAL management. I'm sure DAL management would be happy to have completely open skies and employ third world pilots to fly their airplanes instead of paying 25k/month for DAL CA's to do the work. As a trade union ALPA is obviously trying to protect the high paying jobs.
The video of the DAL captain petitioning against Emirates was produced by ALPA, not DAL management or the US government. Obviously the US government doesn't care much about workers' rights or keeping good jobs stateside. We saw that with the mass exodus of middle class jobs abroad years ago.
I think you are confusing the goals and concerns of ALPA versus DAL management. I'm sure DAL management would be happy to have completely open skies and employ third world pilots to fly their airplanes instead of paying 25k/month for DAL CA's to do the work. As a trade union ALPA is obviously trying to protect the high paying jobs.
The video of the DAL captain petitioning against Emirates was produced by ALPA, not DAL management or the US government. Obviously the US government doesn't care much about workers' rights or keeping good jobs stateside. We saw that with the mass exodus of middle class jobs abroad years ago.
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Problem is the average paying pax will vote with their wallets and feet and the chance to ride on the latest,big new shiny 2 storey electric,computer jet.
Go have a look at EK's 'Y' class -it's like business class!
Go have a look at EK's 'Y' class -it's like business class!
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Laker
Not so, just read recent comments by Anderson on how the A380 is only viable for 'state sponsored airlines' and how he wants a 'level playing field'.
Whether it's one or the other...the message is the same ...political pressure to promote one over the other. That's just business. DAL outsourced it's call centers overseas (since back due quality control issues) and where was the 'level playing field' outrage then.
f.
Not so, just read recent comments by Anderson on how the A380 is only viable for 'state sponsored airlines' and how he wants a 'level playing field'.
Whether it's one or the other...the message is the same ...political pressure to promote one over the other. That's just business. DAL outsourced it's call centers overseas (since back due quality control issues) and where was the 'level playing field' outrage then.
f.