Emirates going with DEC
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Called up a friend in EK who's been there for almost 20 years. He has some insight in the recruitment process and according to him no FOs in EK with the required hours will be delayed in their upgrade.
The company had two options, lower their requirements for upgrade within or open for DECs. Right or wrong, they choose the latter.
And, why are you all focusing on the "narrowbody" pilots? The 50 tons is a minimum. I'm sure there are lots of guys with wb time that will be interested. I've met guys here in Singapore with thousands of 777 and/or 744 command hours that are interested. Swan man and cerbus, do you consider SIA a "****e" or a "dodgy" airline as well?
The company had two options, lower their requirements for upgrade within or open for DECs. Right or wrong, they choose the latter.
And, why are you all focusing on the "narrowbody" pilots? The 50 tons is a minimum. I'm sure there are lots of guys with wb time that will be interested. I've met guys here in Singapore with thousands of 777 and/or 744 command hours that are interested. Swan man and cerbus, do you consider SIA a "****e" or a "dodgy" airline as well?
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DEC
guess all you current FOs when eventually get your CMD in EK and after a couple of years perhaps want to move on will be applying for FO positions as you think its wrong to go direct DEC,can understand your frustration but thats life:
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Bite the bullet boys, pilots in many other companies have had to accept this for years in a row now. This is part of modern day aviation and with a worldwide shortage of pilots looming, DEC is here to stay.
I know your management told you that DEC hiring is open till December 2013 ( something like that) , let's wait and see
There are no rules in love and war.
I know your management told you that DEC hiring is open till December 2013 ( something like that) , let's wait and see
There are no rules in love and war.
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The sense of entitlement & arrogance that some of the obviously aggrieved F/O's have displayed in their posts is astounding! You would think that they are some sort of aviation royalty!
Nobody is entitled to a command. All anyone is entitled to is the chance to attempt the upgrade, once they meet the individual airline's criteria. And there is no evidence that the EK decision to, once again, take DEC's is going to deny anyone that chance. In fact, there seems to be evidence that the opposite is true.
Ek appears to be taking DEC's only because there are not enough F/O's who meet the upgrade requirements & a significant number of those who do have failed some stage of the interview or training.
I find it interesting that some posters here have been at pains to assert that the flying that EK does is too demanding for narrow body DEC's to handle yet, almost in the same breath, espouse the lowering of the upgrade criteria in order to make greater numbers of current EK F/O's eligible for the upgrade. Do they think that sitting in the right seat for a few short years, experiencing the various routes that EK flies on, make them more competent to command an EK flight than a fresh narrow body DEC? EK obviously doesn't think so, or they would give their DEC's more route training than they give the intake F/O's.
I must say that the elitist rhetoric about how it is such a big step from a narrow body to a wide body is starting to wear a little thin. It is arguable that a WB is actually easier to operate than a NB. Any reasonably competent pilot can make the transition without a lot of difficulty. Perhaps they are just trying to convince themselves that they are superior because they have a WB endorsement on the license.
I joined EK as a DEC off a narrow body aircraft, with very little international experience. While I had to put the hard work & preparation in, I found the transition no more difficult than my initial command upgrade training. I find the "F/O babysitting the DEC" comments offensive & delusional, to say the least. I have had to 'babysit' dozens more F/O's over my time here at EK than have ever babysat me.
F/O's who -
- think it is OK to bust STAR altitude constraints by 200 - 300 feet,
- think an ATC speed instruction is advisory, not mandatory,
- think that, despite having alternate fuel in the tanks, it is acceptable to hold at DESDI until minimum fuel for DXB, declare an emergancy & then continue to DXB,
- don't know how long INTER & TEMPO last for,
- don't know what BECMG means & how it is applied,
- don't look at the validity times of a notam & wade through a long & totally irrelevant one, only to miss the next one, which is relevant,
- who don't look at the weather & notams for all the ETOPS airports before finishing the briefing,
- don't listen to the radio & have very little situational awareness regarding what is happening around them,
- call 'positive climb' when the main gear are still on the runway,
- make a suggestion & when you tell them no & why, just go ahead & do it anyway,
- perform the 'MCP finger ballet' on approach because they have very little idea of what they need to achieve with the aircraft & have no idea on how to achieve it,
- call on a frequency over & over again when they are too far away to get a response, stepping on everyone else in the process, & then make disparaging remarks when they hear someone else do the same thing 10 minutes later,
- loudly make an SOP callout while ATC are transmitting to you, because they have no idea of priorities.
I could go on.
If you guys spent just a fraction of the time & energy on doing your current job well, as you spend on denigrating DEC's & going on about what you feel you are entitled to, you would probably have a much smoother transition when your upgrade eventually comes along.
Nobody is entitled to a command. All anyone is entitled to is the chance to attempt the upgrade, once they meet the individual airline's criteria. And there is no evidence that the EK decision to, once again, take DEC's is going to deny anyone that chance. In fact, there seems to be evidence that the opposite is true.
Ek appears to be taking DEC's only because there are not enough F/O's who meet the upgrade requirements & a significant number of those who do have failed some stage of the interview or training.
I find it interesting that some posters here have been at pains to assert that the flying that EK does is too demanding for narrow body DEC's to handle yet, almost in the same breath, espouse the lowering of the upgrade criteria in order to make greater numbers of current EK F/O's eligible for the upgrade. Do they think that sitting in the right seat for a few short years, experiencing the various routes that EK flies on, make them more competent to command an EK flight than a fresh narrow body DEC? EK obviously doesn't think so, or they would give their DEC's more route training than they give the intake F/O's.
I must say that the elitist rhetoric about how it is such a big step from a narrow body to a wide body is starting to wear a little thin. It is arguable that a WB is actually easier to operate than a NB. Any reasonably competent pilot can make the transition without a lot of difficulty. Perhaps they are just trying to convince themselves that they are superior because they have a WB endorsement on the license.
I joined EK as a DEC off a narrow body aircraft, with very little international experience. While I had to put the hard work & preparation in, I found the transition no more difficult than my initial command upgrade training. I find the "F/O babysitting the DEC" comments offensive & delusional, to say the least. I have had to 'babysit' dozens more F/O's over my time here at EK than have ever babysat me.
F/O's who -
- think it is OK to bust STAR altitude constraints by 200 - 300 feet,
- think an ATC speed instruction is advisory, not mandatory,
- think that, despite having alternate fuel in the tanks, it is acceptable to hold at DESDI until minimum fuel for DXB, declare an emergancy & then continue to DXB,
- don't know how long INTER & TEMPO last for,
- don't know what BECMG means & how it is applied,
- don't look at the validity times of a notam & wade through a long & totally irrelevant one, only to miss the next one, which is relevant,
- who don't look at the weather & notams for all the ETOPS airports before finishing the briefing,
- don't listen to the radio & have very little situational awareness regarding what is happening around them,
- call 'positive climb' when the main gear are still on the runway,
- make a suggestion & when you tell them no & why, just go ahead & do it anyway,
- perform the 'MCP finger ballet' on approach because they have very little idea of what they need to achieve with the aircraft & have no idea on how to achieve it,
- call on a frequency over & over again when they are too far away to get a response, stepping on everyone else in the process, & then make disparaging remarks when they hear someone else do the same thing 10 minutes later,
- loudly make an SOP callout while ATC are transmitting to you, because they have no idea of priorities.
I could go on.
If you guys spent just a fraction of the time & energy on doing your current job well, as you spend on denigrating DEC's & going on about what you feel you are entitled to, you would probably have a much smoother transition when your upgrade eventually comes along.
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Mr takingover
I have only one question for you.
Does an ETOPS alternate require ATS or ATC?
Now look it up in your EK manuals and you will see that EK does not know how to despatch a twin.
I have only one question for you.
Does an ETOPS alternate require ATS or ATC?
Now look it up in your EK manuals and you will see that EK does not know how to despatch a twin.
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EK FO's think they are can pass the upgrade with ease and EK knows what the pass rate is and will be ( going down ) and do not have enough to fill the manpower plan. DEC's are needed to fill in the gap. Someone mentioned TRI/TRE's i believe that is mainly for the 330 as to bridge the transfer to the 380
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How it relates to the discussion.....well.....my post was a reaction to Mr takeingover who has an opinion on the EK FO's being ready or not for the LHS.
He puts this in the context of the DEC discussion.
My question to him is in fact directly related to the whole EK training department. DEC is their decision. In this context they should reflect also on themselves.
You can look at all various parameters and criticise your FO on his professionalism with regards to flight preparation.
But what is the point to check if an alternate is suitable or not if you do not know if you can actually use it?
So what is it ATS or ATC? How does EK despatch from SIN to MEL?
Do they need a DEC to come and explain that to them too?
He puts this in the context of the DEC discussion.
My question to him is in fact directly related to the whole EK training department. DEC is their decision. In this context they should reflect also on themselves.
You can look at all various parameters and criticise your FO on his professionalism with regards to flight preparation.
But what is the point to check if an alternate is suitable or not if you do not know if you can actually use it?
So what is it ATS or ATC? How does EK despatch from SIN to MEL?
Do they need a DEC to come and explain that to them too?
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Aww come on Takingover (does the name suggest a personality trait?) I wasn't THAT bad, besides, we have cat 3b, why do want to look at that estops stuff?
As for an INTER, that's just oztranauts trying to be cleverer. All the buttons and switches can get a bit confusing though, luckily my arse is usually so numb from the cripple 7 seat, my brain won't function properly anyway. "Mumbai Mumbai do you read?"
As for an INTER, that's just oztranauts trying to be cleverer. All the buttons and switches can get a bit confusing though, luckily my arse is usually so numb from the cripple 7 seat, my brain won't function properly anyway. "Mumbai Mumbai do you read?"
Sittingidly I will never defend the DEC policy. All deliveries this year have been known about for years. That the managers could not recognise that stopping recruitment in 2008 would one day bite, or that they can not plan ahead effectively re manpower needs is nothing new. They sacrifice our days off and leave at a whim to fix their lack of planning, and the DEC hiring now is for the same reasons as last time. Managers care only for their own short term gain (bonus) and have no interest in career development of their pilots. This is why all the hard questions are answered with "If you don't like it leave!".
The difference now is that present FOs new this could happen when they joined. If it was considered ok that FOs were being shafted by DEC hiring when they joined, why should it be different now? The DEC option has been on the recruiting web page, although not active, since the last DEC was recruited. This policy is no secret.
As I mentioned before this new command and transfer policy shafts new minibus captains, and some maxibus FOs. It is great for new joining FOs on the minibus, and minibus FOs who lacked the experience to go 380, as they will now get a command prior to their more experienced course mates who were forced to the 380 "for operational reasons".
The Don
The difference now is that present FOs new this could happen when they joined. If it was considered ok that FOs were being shafted by DEC hiring when they joined, why should it be different now? The DEC option has been on the recruiting web page, although not active, since the last DEC was recruited. This policy is no secret.
As I mentioned before this new command and transfer policy shafts new minibus captains, and some maxibus FOs. It is great for new joining FOs on the minibus, and minibus FOs who lacked the experience to go 380, as they will now get a command prior to their more experienced course mates who were forced to the 380 "for operational reasons".
The Don
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To all you potential DEC's criticizing the current EK FO's for complaining about the company seeking to recruit you guys, I agree when they probably are being hypocritical as I'm sure that when they are Captains they will seek employment as DEC as and when they choose to leave EK. However I would put money on the fact that all you potential DEC's are huge hypocrites yourselves, as I'm sure that if you found yourselves in the same situation when you were FO's you would of been screaming from the rooftops about the injustice of it all. So how about you cut them slack, except that they are going to complain and moan and concentrate on passing the assessment. I'm sure if and when you make it into the company you will have no problems with anyone you fly with.
TakingOver and any other current EK captains slagging off the FO's you are flying with openly on PPRune is very bad form and you are really just displaying the characteristics which I have no doubt make you a very painful character to fly with.
Before the question is asked yes I am a current EK FO and I do find the new policy a little frustrating. But I did know it was a possibility when I joined the company and I also realize that there is no point getting to worked up about the situation as it will do nothing to help.
regards
C2LL
TakingOver and any other current EK captains slagging off the FO's you are flying with openly on PPRune is very bad form and you are really just displaying the characteristics which I have no doubt make you a very painful character to fly with.
Before the question is asked yes I am a current EK FO and I do find the new policy a little frustrating. But I did know it was a possibility when I joined the company and I also realize that there is no point getting to worked up about the situation as it will do nothing to help.
regards
C2LL
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sittingidly
Bullseye post.
The job of Airline pilot is completely ****** up. Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system.
Now "Mr takingover" .... if you want to play little capt knows it all, then lets just do just that.
What about wind limitations for alternate airports ?
Does the gust count or not?
How is crosswind capability determined?
What margin is build into it?
You see flying is more than just learning a few rules, but unfortunately that is what the whole thing has turned into.
Bullseye post.
The job of Airline pilot is completely ****** up. Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system.
Now "Mr takingover" .... if you want to play little capt knows it all, then lets just do just that.
What about wind limitations for alternate airports ?
Does the gust count or not?
How is crosswind capability determined?
What margin is build into it?
You see flying is more than just learning a few rules, but unfortunately that is what the whole thing has turned into.
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Gents, all this bickering back and forth serves absolutely no purpose.
When current FO's start leaving in droves because the company craps on them by hiring DEC's, and when the company can't recruit new FO's, that's when things will change...
Until then, either accept it or vote with your feet.
When current FO's start leaving in droves because the company craps on them by hiring DEC's, and when the company can't recruit new FO's, that's when things will change...
Until then, either accept it or vote with your feet.
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"When current FO's start leaving in droves "
To go where? This has been said before and never happened , but good luck to those who do leave ( for another FO postion of course ). EK knows whats out there, they will not change or react . When you say droves how many of the 1600 FO's will that be?
To go where? This has been said before and never happened , but good luck to those who do leave ( for another FO postion of course ). EK knows whats out there, they will not change or react . When you say droves how many of the 1600 FO's will that be?
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Emirates use DEC probably because it is cheaper than upgrade an FO. It is faster also. If you upgrade an FO you need to form an other FO. 2 courses. Probably some FO are suitable for upgrade and some are not. It is normal in any company that some FO even that they qualify they fail upgrade courses.
The real thing is that emirates can hire DEC legally if they want. And you know it. The problem is not a narrow body Capt DEC. They are qualified. It is a more relaxed job than 20 days on the field. If you attack them is pilot against pilot. Poor against poor. The problem is management.
The real thing is that emirates can hire DEC legally if they want. And you know it. The problem is not a narrow body Capt DEC. They are qualified. It is a more relaxed job than 20 days on the field. If you attack them is pilot against pilot. Poor against poor. The problem is management.
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Pitch Up Authority
You have got to be kidding ! !
" Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system "
What a sad man you are - Irrespective of what seat you're in you must be a bundle of fun to fly with.
You have got to be kidding ! !
" Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system "
What a sad man you are - Irrespective of what seat you're in you must be a bundle of fun to fly with.
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Well fatbus, back to your own home country for example... unless you're a local. You know... unions, real legal system, etc.
Can't or don't want to go back? Then quit complaining and suck it up.
No offense, but I am so sick of pilots bitching on here and not willing to do anything about it. What can you do about it? Vote with your feet. Can't or won't vote with your feet? Well... too bad.
Remember, it is the company's prerogative to hire DEC's, to violate the so-called seniority at their whim because in the UAE, seniority as a union concept doesn't really mean anything if the management feels like changing it.
I just hope that prospective new joiners pay close attention to this whether they're prospective DEC or FO, and make appropriate choices. Coming into any Middle Eastern airline as an FO, you need to be prepared to be a career FO... you are at the mercy of the management who can change the rules on you at any time, and are not obligated to provide you with an upgrade opportunity. If you are OK with that and still choose to come here, and I don't mean just EK, but truly any Middle East airline.... welcome habibi! Enjoy the ride, but don't come complaining to me when you don't get upgraded. You knew the rules at joining...
Can't or don't want to go back? Then quit complaining and suck it up.
No offense, but I am so sick of pilots bitching on here and not willing to do anything about it. What can you do about it? Vote with your feet. Can't or won't vote with your feet? Well... too bad.
Remember, it is the company's prerogative to hire DEC's, to violate the so-called seniority at their whim because in the UAE, seniority as a union concept doesn't really mean anything if the management feels like changing it.
I just hope that prospective new joiners pay close attention to this whether they're prospective DEC or FO, and make appropriate choices. Coming into any Middle Eastern airline as an FO, you need to be prepared to be a career FO... you are at the mercy of the management who can change the rules on you at any time, and are not obligated to provide you with an upgrade opportunity. If you are OK with that and still choose to come here, and I don't mean just EK, but truly any Middle East airline.... welcome habibi! Enjoy the ride, but don't come complaining to me when you don't get upgraded. You knew the rules at joining...
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Firstly I'm not complaining as it has no impact on my plans, I could care less. I'm just plain tired of listening to FO's constantly bitch, if they leave it makes no difference to me.
DEC's are not new.
Like I said already , EK has been through this before with people saying "just wait til they start leaving in big numbers" and it never happened. How many of the 1600 + FO's are going to go back to where they came from?
I'm not a company guy, far from it, but the reality is once you are here ,they have you, period. Just have a look at how few have left in the last 12 months.
Once you are a contract pilot you give up all those protections you refer to, if you cant deal with that , then stay where you are.
If you ( becareful) start the leaving in droves ,all I say is good luck.
DEC's are not new.
Like I said already , EK has been through this before with people saying "just wait til they start leaving in big numbers" and it never happened. How many of the 1600 + FO's are going to go back to where they came from?
I'm not a company guy, far from it, but the reality is once you are here ,they have you, period. Just have a look at how few have left in the last 12 months.
Once you are a contract pilot you give up all those protections you refer to, if you cant deal with that , then stay where you are.
If you ( becareful) start the leaving in droves ,all I say is good luck.
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I somewhat agree with above post except this, and its relevant :
We all knew coming here...fair play is not ingrained in the culture...it's 'objective'/'target' driven.
We also know that in the long run the former will get you better results than the latter. But that takes years of precedence, education & foresight. Western managers have it local über bosses don't . Not their fault, they just haven't being doing 'it' long enough. It being 'the civilized world'...i.e living in tents 40 years ago when Concorde was been flown across the Atlantic...so to my point.
The EK experience is an exercise in body blows...e.g altercation with other driver, mgt, neighbor, training dept etc...some guys have more than others through happenstance others through their own decision making...each blow is a step closer to the exit.
The Reintroduction of DECs is one of those blows that will leave a bruise that will ultimately lead to new skippers in the future leaving for big contact money is Asia
Obviously no one can predict the numerics but I believe the unknown consequence of this decision by the company will ultimately cost them in the long run.. I'm a skipper so I'm past it ..but it's still a kick in the balls (and yes I have DEC mates) because of some of the excellent FOs I have flown with who actually meet the DEC req's but not the FCI's
So to the guys in the RHS...let Karma take care of this one ...It never fails...stay professional & unemotional (as 95% of you always do) get your Type, make that mental note of how you are valued...and act accordingly in the future.
Respectfully,
f
We all knew coming here...fair play is not ingrained in the culture...it's 'objective'/'target' driven.
We also know that in the long run the former will get you better results than the latter. But that takes years of precedence, education & foresight. Western managers have it local über bosses don't . Not their fault, they just haven't being doing 'it' long enough. It being 'the civilized world'...i.e living in tents 40 years ago when Concorde was been flown across the Atlantic...so to my point.
The EK experience is an exercise in body blows...e.g altercation with other driver, mgt, neighbor, training dept etc...some guys have more than others through happenstance others through their own decision making...each blow is a step closer to the exit.
The Reintroduction of DECs is one of those blows that will leave a bruise that will ultimately lead to new skippers in the future leaving for big contact money is Asia
Obviously no one can predict the numerics but I believe the unknown consequence of this decision by the company will ultimately cost them in the long run.. I'm a skipper so I'm past it ..but it's still a kick in the balls (and yes I have DEC mates) because of some of the excellent FOs I have flown with who actually meet the DEC req's but not the FCI's
So to the guys in the RHS...let Karma take care of this one ...It never fails...stay professional & unemotional (as 95% of you always do) get your Type, make that mental note of how you are valued...and act accordingly in the future.
Respectfully,
f
Last edited by fliion; 3rd Mar 2012 at 12:24.