Incidend during take off in Doha
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Incident during take off in Doha
I have just heard that one of the A306 F had serious incident during take off.
It looks like they have had engine fail before V1 and despite of that they took off??
Any more info please?
It looks like they have had engine fail before V1 and despite of that they took off??
Any more info please?
Last edited by bigdeal; 10th Oct 2011 at 13:55. Reason: speling
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they have had engine fail before V1 and despite of that they took off??
V1 is the speed at which the first stopping action must be taken in an RTO... (it most certainly is NOT a decision speed)...
...so, if the failure occurred at 1-2 knots prior to V1 (depending on what certification standards you're dealing with) and there was not enough time to assess the damage then the correct decision was made. No?
Of course none of us know exactly what the circumstances are, so unless we're big-league quarterbacks with monday-morning ball practice let's just refrain from Kangaroo-courting our colleagues and show some respect?
MGC
Last edited by Mr Good Cat; 9th Oct 2011 at 13:30.
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Mr Cat, are you sure about that ?
"V1 is the speed at which the first stopping action must be taken in an RTO... (it most certainly is NOT a decision speed)..."
You missed a very key word there is your paraphrase " MAXIMUM ". If you put this word in there correctly you certainly have a decision to make at this point dont you ?
let me take the EASA definition as we are taking bus here, which is pretty much the same as the FAA anyways...
‘V1’ means the maximum speed in the take-off at which the pilot must take the first action (e.g. apply brakes, reduce thrust, deploy speed brakes) to stop the aeroplane within the accelerate-stop distance. V1 also means the minimum speed in the take-off, following a failure of the critical engine at VEF, at which the pilot can continue the take-off and achieve the required height above the take-off surface within the take-off distance.
"V1 is the speed at which the first stopping action must be taken in an RTO... (it most certainly is NOT a decision speed)..."
You missed a very key word there is your paraphrase " MAXIMUM ". If you put this word in there correctly you certainly have a decision to make at this point dont you ?
let me take the EASA definition as we are taking bus here, which is pretty much the same as the FAA anyways...
‘V1’ means the maximum speed in the take-off at which the pilot must take the first action (e.g. apply brakes, reduce thrust, deploy speed brakes) to stop the aeroplane within the accelerate-stop distance. V1 also means the minimum speed in the take-off, following a failure of the critical engine at VEF, at which the pilot can continue the take-off and achieve the required height above the take-off surface within the take-off distance.
Almost correct with V1 speed.
JAR certification gives a 2 second buffer or thinking time in which to start the process of stopping ie brakes/rev etc
FAA if I recall only allows 1 second, although that may have changed.
So if fire bell goes at exactly V1 the perf figures allow for 2 seconds in which to make your decision and start stopping
, so you will go above V1 and the figures have an allowance built in for this. Not much thinking time I'll grant you but it's there.
It also explains why types certified under grandfather rights have "better" figures than new types.eg 737 has 1 sec , 320 or newer types have 2sec so worse performance on paper but in reality a fraction safer.
JAR certification gives a 2 second buffer or thinking time in which to start the process of stopping ie brakes/rev etc
FAA if I recall only allows 1 second, although that may have changed.
So if fire bell goes at exactly V1 the perf figures allow for 2 seconds in which to make your decision and start stopping
, so you will go above V1 and the figures have an allowance built in for this. Not much thinking time I'll grant you but it's there. It also explains why types certified under grandfather rights have "better" figures than new types.eg 737 has 1 sec , 320 or newer types have 2sec so worse performance on paper but in reality a fraction safer.
145,
Yes, the calculations of V1 include this buffer, but that does not mean it should be used. We always have buffers built into the performance figures, but we then try and not eat into them.
You do not have one or two seconds after V1 to initiate an RTO. If it has not been initiated by V1, the takeoff should be continued unless the aircraft is unflyable.
MGC is correct in saying that a failure close to V1, with insufficient time to react and initiate an RTO before V1, should be taken into the air.
Yes, the calculations of V1 include this buffer, but that does not mean it should be used. We always have buffers built into the performance figures, but we then try and not eat into them.
You do not have one or two seconds after V1 to initiate an RTO. If it has not been initiated by V1, the takeoff should be continued unless the aircraft is unflyable.
MGC is correct in saying that a failure close to V1, with insufficient time to react and initiate an RTO before V1, should be taken into the air.
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The FAA is changing the definition of V1 Decision Speed into V1 Action Speed ... if you didn't start any actions (reject take-off maneuver) before V1, it is safer to threat whatever you have as an in-flight emergency!
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I believe this is the old case which has happened one or two months ago.It was not typical engine failure, it was power lost at 80-90 kts.
Most probably we will learn about that situation in next flight safety bulletin.
Most probably we will learn about that situation in next flight safety bulletin.
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Good grief ! What are they teaching you kids today. My present company SOP briefing could not be clearer. " Up to 80 kts I will CONSIDER stopping for anything. Between 80 & V1, I WILL stop ONLY for an Engine FIRE, FAILURE , Thrust reverser deploy or ANY other failure which affects the flying quality of the aircraft. Oh & yeah, nearly all of us are calling V1 at V1-5..............pretty bog standard throughout the industry. Question bubbles at or slightly before V1 really worries me.
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BETTIGIO...are u serious? ANY failure before V1 stop or go???
I think that "before V1 for eng fire, eng failure, or aircraft unable to fly the Aircraft must be STOPPED"....if other master caution it is for sure safer to continue..."
if they had an ENG FAILURE Before V1...even if there is not much time to UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF FAILURE u can understand that 1 eng has gone ..so ABORT t.off....
anyway as someone said who knows what conditions they ahd that they...
I think that "before V1 for eng fire, eng failure, or aircraft unable to fly the Aircraft must be STOPPED"....if other master caution it is for sure safer to continue..."
if they had an ENG FAILURE Before V1...even if there is not much time to UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF FAILURE u can understand that 1 eng has gone ..so ABORT t.off....
anyway as someone said who knows what conditions they ahd that they...
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Blusky 75, well said. One of the few on this thread who seems to know what he is talking about. 'Sittingidly' adopts his familiar attack frame of mind which worries me even more than the other contributers. "credibility" ? Good grief man. I wonder who are the Trolls and who are the Professionals and who are the Ameteurs. Be reminded, lots of people who are not pilots read these forums. I can see them reaching for the ticket cancellation option when reading some of this nonsense. For the real professional pilots out there, no need for reminding you what to do before V1 and what to do after V1. 'Sittingidly' , over to you for your customary English Language lessons, spell checks, off thread persuasion etc etc; Yawn Yawn !
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...we are actually duped into the mindset of criticizing our fellow pilots before we even know the facts? Management really has won the battle, much to the detriment of flight safety.
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Blusky 75: Yes I'm serious: "Any failure before V1 is a STOP or GO decision.
Now off course depending on the failure and the speed which may occur I will decide what to do.
I will reject for anything below 100 kts for sure, no doubt.
I will reject above 100 kts and before V1 only for severe malfunctions such as engine fire, engine failure, loss of control or anything I decide it's better to stay on ground.
Exactly at the V1 I will continue for sure, no matter what.
"An engine on fire still is an engine giving thrust"
Happy flights.
Now off course depending on the failure and the speed which may occur I will decide what to do.
I will reject for anything below 100 kts for sure, no doubt.
I will reject above 100 kts and before V1 only for severe malfunctions such as engine fire, engine failure, loss of control or anything I decide it's better to stay on ground.
Exactly at the V1 I will continue for sure, no matter what.
"An engine on fire still is an engine giving thrust"
Happy flights.
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Did they return ? after dumping fuel ? What was the title of this thread again ?
I love KIS, Keep It Simple, for the Bobby Drivers and as described lovely from a Colleague of mine who got accused to be a POW Veteran: Before 80 kts, between 80 kts and V1, before or at V1, the Criterias are outlined and cristal clear, after V1. The Bus Drivers hear 100 kts and next call is V1.... clear shot as well.
There is no time / space for personal preference as V1 -5 or other hobbies when it comes to the distance / speed / time critical subject.
In real life when the day comes why you are paid for and you stop on the paved surface after the bell rings, (better to hear after listening to the CVR), determination and conclusion would be: Good Boy / Girl, you end up with the Nose Wheel in the Mud: Bad Boy / Girl.
Never think your Fleet Manager, Chief Pilot or other Desk Fliers will protect you because of skidded over a Banana Leaf or something else, fact is you are in the Spot Light and you create a shadow. You have to face uncomfortable questions and also accusations. Suddenly you are the only one who then realises that you are on your own and defense is not that easy done in such cases. You have had a "split second" to decide, the Desk Flier has hours, even day´s, to read and repeat the action that should have been taken and if it is not the same you have choosen in the split second you have to face the cold wind first.
Remember if, God forbidd, you ever have such an event: Everything you state afterwards can and WILL be used against you, from all involved. The Manufacturer will not take any responsibility if he can avoid that. The Airline will not take the blame either, the Insurance Company is also interested to find if they can send the Bill off to the Airport maybe and finaly the Authority is happy to put the blame on someone else then themselves. So be aware that the "bad card" is handed around and the last in the chain got bitten.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
I love KIS, Keep It Simple, for the Bobby Drivers and as described lovely from a Colleague of mine who got accused to be a POW Veteran: Before 80 kts, between 80 kts and V1, before or at V1, the Criterias are outlined and cristal clear, after V1. The Bus Drivers hear 100 kts and next call is V1.... clear shot as well.
There is no time / space for personal preference as V1 -5 or other hobbies when it comes to the distance / speed / time critical subject.
In real life when the day comes why you are paid for and you stop on the paved surface after the bell rings, (better to hear after listening to the CVR), determination and conclusion would be: Good Boy / Girl, you end up with the Nose Wheel in the Mud: Bad Boy / Girl.
Never think your Fleet Manager, Chief Pilot or other Desk Fliers will protect you because of skidded over a Banana Leaf or something else, fact is you are in the Spot Light and you create a shadow. You have to face uncomfortable questions and also accusations. Suddenly you are the only one who then realises that you are on your own and defense is not that easy done in such cases. You have had a "split second" to decide, the Desk Flier has hours, even day´s, to read and repeat the action that should have been taken and if it is not the same you have choosen in the split second you have to face the cold wind first.
Remember if, God forbidd, you ever have such an event: Everything you state afterwards can and WILL be used against you, from all involved. The Manufacturer will not take any responsibility if he can avoid that. The Airline will not take the blame either, the Insurance Company is also interested to find if they can send the Bill off to the Airport maybe and finaly the Authority is happy to put the blame on someone else then themselves. So be aware that the "bad card" is handed around and the last in the chain got bitten.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
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B737NG, terrific post. My faith, slowly being restored. And those of us who do not fly "the bus"....geees, what is that (?) the number 31 to Hammersmith ? According to one, we are irrelevent. We do not get that auto call on my Boeing so, I would say, everything helps. V1-5 is a real concentrator for me. "Bettigio", my hero training Captain at Seattle once reminded me that a jet engine is ALWAYS on fire..............c'mon, relaxed me a little. Safe flying chaps.
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Complicate the uncomplicated
I would have been absolutely pleased of this discussion if this thread was based on FACTS from the incident that has happened during that particular day and that particular flight from Doha! But with all my respect to the contributors here, you just don't know what were the events that have led to the crew decision!
I'm sure that many of you here are speaking out based on the superior knowledge and superior skills as superior pilots. But how relevant is that if you cannot construct the factors together and come up with a definite conclusion?
What is shocking though, is to see the great variation in opinions about handling RTO,s and making the Go/No-Go decision!
I'm sure that many of you here are speaking out based on the superior knowledge and superior skills as superior pilots. But how relevant is that if you cannot construct the factors together and come up with a definite conclusion?
What is shocking though, is to see the great variation in opinions about handling RTO,s and making the Go/No-Go decision!