EK fuel letter
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EK fuel letter
Hi all,
Anybody else received the 'fuel letter' recently? Found it in my box the other day and curious about the anybodyelse's dealings with our 'award winning ' flt ops management about this.Apparently ,I am 'significantly' above the fleet average (the fleet average is about 900kg extra on top of the OFP ). I carry about 20mins extra for every sector inbound DXB and elsewhere as required ( about 30% of the time)
Anybody else received the 'fuel letter' recently? Found it in my box the other day and curious about the anybodyelse's dealings with our 'award winning ' flt ops management about this.Apparently ,I am 'significantly' above the fleet average (the fleet average is about 900kg extra on top of the OFP ). I carry about 20mins extra for every sector inbound DXB and elsewhere as required ( about 30% of the time)
Last edited by bone; 21st Oct 2010 at 09:15.
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Bone
Just curious. When you say you take an extra 20 mins as required, required by what exactly?
Yes, according to the CAR ops, we need to arrive into Dubai with fuel for destination plus minimum 20 minutes. Some guys will add another 20 mins onto whatever is the contingency, others add fuel to ensure the contingency totals 20 mins. Which one are you?
Either way, both are not required as we often have 20 mins anyway by having a destination alternate. Therein lies your 20 minutes. The requirement was placed into the Car ops for those operators arriving into Dubai who may not have clearly defined fuel policies such as ours and, therefore, little or no alternate fuel.
Harry
Just curious. When you say you take an extra 20 mins as required, required by what exactly?
Yes, according to the CAR ops, we need to arrive into Dubai with fuel for destination plus minimum 20 minutes. Some guys will add another 20 mins onto whatever is the contingency, others add fuel to ensure the contingency totals 20 mins. Which one are you?
Either way, both are not required as we often have 20 mins anyway by having a destination alternate. Therein lies your 20 minutes. The requirement was placed into the Car ops for those operators arriving into Dubai who may not have clearly defined fuel policies such as ours and, therefore, little or no alternate fuel.
Harry
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Agree 100% with Oblaas and Contacted - carry it if you NEED it, but why carry it if you don't? Even when it's busy in DXB you'll only get 2 turns at DESDI or BUBIN now that ATC have got to grips with the reduced landing separation... And it's no big deal to commit either... Just seems to me that some don't like the change of fuel policy but it works fine - same policy my last operator used!
And no-one's run out of gas there yet
And no-one's run out of gas there yet
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Don't worry, this kind of love letters will become the rule as it is in Ryanair. There you can only take 300 kg extra without giving a serious explanation and when I say serious it must be serious. Also in FR there is a fuel league, based on real burn against plog burn, I can tell you that those pilots at the bottom of the league receive this kind of letters.
I guess as more and more Fr Jockey's are joining EK it will not chock them more than that.
I guess as more and more Fr Jockey's are joining EK it will not chock them more than that.
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I believe that if an operator chooses to operate a minimum fuel policey, it shouldn't combine that with a fuel uplift policy that allow dispatch with a desrepancy in uplift of 5% up to 1000kgs less than what is required minimum to legally do the job as we do at EK.
I also believe Harry that you have decided to put your own spin on the UAE GCAA requirement to arrive into Dubai with 20 minutes holding fuel. I have read it and nowhere does it state this applies only to such and such operators. Under the defintions in the OMA I don't believe that on an international operation you can legally depart intending to commit to destination and therefore sufficent fuel including your contingency should be acceptable practise.
It's like the Australian holding advisory. If it didn't apply to us we'd always get straight through with no holding just like the African and American operators instead of holding just like all the other operators do.
I also defy anyone to accurately predict when a peek time will occur nowadays. I have held for considerable periods during what I would have historically considered offpeek on several occassions.
Committing to destination is a serious business. Sounds easy up till the point both runways get closed so RFS vehicals can gain access to aircraft under emergency or an aircraft spills fluid or parts on the runway and flows decrease accordingly.
I also believe Harry that you have decided to put your own spin on the UAE GCAA requirement to arrive into Dubai with 20 minutes holding fuel. I have read it and nowhere does it state this applies only to such and such operators. Under the defintions in the OMA I don't believe that on an international operation you can legally depart intending to commit to destination and therefore sufficent fuel including your contingency should be acceptable practise.
It's like the Australian holding advisory. If it didn't apply to us we'd always get straight through with no holding just like the African and American operators instead of holding just like all the other operators do.
I also defy anyone to accurately predict when a peek time will occur nowadays. I have held for considerable periods during what I would have historically considered offpeek on several occassions.
Committing to destination is a serious business. Sounds easy up till the point both runways get closed so RFS vehicals can gain access to aircraft under emergency or an aircraft spills fluid or parts on the runway and flows decrease accordingly.
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Even when it's busy in DXB you'll only get 2 turns at DESDI or BUBIN now that ATC have got to grips with the reduced landing separation.
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Some of you fellas are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome! If a captain feel he might need the extra 20 min, then it is his prerogative.
Contingency fuel is intended for use after the browser has been disconected. Not saved to hold over dxb. If you have saved it, well good on you.
No one looks at how much fuel one actually saves enroute by requesting directs and block climbs where possible.
The extra fuel he brought cost 4% per hour. Typically 25% of the uplift to carry it. So for 1 ton extra he will burn 250kg. It is very easy to save this fuel enroute, hence it cost the company nothing and the captain is happy. Whats the big deal?
Contingency fuel is intended for use after the browser has been disconected. Not saved to hold over dxb. If you have saved it, well good on you.
No one looks at how much fuel one actually saves enroute by requesting directs and block climbs where possible.
The extra fuel he brought cost 4% per hour. Typically 25% of the uplift to carry it. So for 1 ton extra he will burn 250kg. It is very easy to save this fuel enroute, hence it cost the company nothing and the captain is happy. Whats the big deal?
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Folks,
There is a UAE AIC which states that no delay means upto 20 mins delay, same as the UK. Since it is written down and you are aware of it before departure, it CANNOT be part of your contingency which is for unforseen circumstances.
To my mind, that means you are rightly entitled to have 20 mins fuel over and above min reserve + dest'n alt + contingency planned at dest'n when you depart.
Personally, I look at the dest'n weather, time of day, enroute weather, whose FIRs and the amount of contingency I've been given. 600 kg at midnight or 06:00 is not enough.
Sensible additions seem to be acceptable, no letter for me so far
At the end (or beginning) of the day, if you can reasonably justify the extra, throw the letter in the bin.
HTC, I disagree.
There is a UAE AIC which states that no delay means upto 20 mins delay, same as the UK. Since it is written down and you are aware of it before departure, it CANNOT be part of your contingency which is for unforseen circumstances.
To my mind, that means you are rightly entitled to have 20 mins fuel over and above min reserve + dest'n alt + contingency planned at dest'n when you depart.
Personally, I look at the dest'n weather, time of day, enroute weather, whose FIRs and the amount of contingency I've been given. 600 kg at midnight or 06:00 is not enough.
Sensible additions seem to be acceptable, no letter for me so far
At the end (or beginning) of the day, if you can reasonably justify the extra, throw the letter in the bin.
Either way, both are not required as we often have 20 mins anyway by having a destination alternate
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Helen, KIWI and other like minded fellow aviators.
Every flight I do into Dubai, I will have 20 minutes available. That's because we have an alternate airport and we have the option of using that fuel should we decide to commit. If the weather is marginal or there is a very high likelyhood of delays, as a crew, we will decide what extra fuel to take. As the Captain, I will make the final decision on that. It really is that simple so I can't quite understand why so many of you have trouble understanding it.
Strange as it may seem to some, there are operators out there flying aircraft on different fuel policies to ours. Many of them are russian built and parked on the opposite side of the airfield! If we were following EK's previous fuel policy, then I can well understand the desire to carry the 20 minutes as extra. Our current policy has been designed to give the flexibility and final decision to the Captain on the day.
So use it!
Harry
Every flight I do into Dubai, I will have 20 minutes available. That's because we have an alternate airport and we have the option of using that fuel should we decide to commit. If the weather is marginal or there is a very high likelyhood of delays, as a crew, we will decide what extra fuel to take. As the Captain, I will make the final decision on that. It really is that simple so I can't quite understand why so many of you have trouble understanding it.
Strange as it may seem to some, there are operators out there flying aircraft on different fuel policies to ours. Many of them are russian built and parked on the opposite side of the airfield! If we were following EK's previous fuel policy, then I can well understand the desire to carry the 20 minutes as extra. Our current policy has been designed to give the flexibility and final decision to the Captain on the day.
So use it!
Harry
Don't worry about the letter Bone. Many others have received one.
If ever l get one, l know in the diary l keep of my flights, there will always be justification for extra fuel uplifted. And l reckon it would be a long shot that you would ever be called in to the office to explain your decision making on fuel.
Classic was two days ago. Operating from the far far east for arrival at 0500 in DXB and looking at the forecast, l added a reasonable extra contingency as there was NONE on the OFP. Got held below FL320 the whole way and used the whole frigging lot, but luckily the WX in DXB wasn't so bad.
The annoying part was opening the portal when l got home to confirm the flight hours, and there was an email from VPNC advising that extra fuel should be carried on flights arriving when l did, sent before the OFP was produced.
It's interesting that the VP sees extra fuel as beneficial, but there is no communication to those who may need to uplift it.
In the end it's all academic, as no-one knows whats going to happen, but you can make an educated guess.
halas
If ever l get one, l know in the diary l keep of my flights, there will always be justification for extra fuel uplifted. And l reckon it would be a long shot that you would ever be called in to the office to explain your decision making on fuel.
Classic was two days ago. Operating from the far far east for arrival at 0500 in DXB and looking at the forecast, l added a reasonable extra contingency as there was NONE on the OFP. Got held below FL320 the whole way and used the whole frigging lot, but luckily the WX in DXB wasn't so bad.
The annoying part was opening the portal when l got home to confirm the flight hours, and there was an email from VPNC advising that extra fuel should be carried on flights arriving when l did, sent before the OFP was produced.
It's interesting that the VP sees extra fuel as beneficial, but there is no communication to those who may need to uplift it.
In the end it's all academic, as no-one knows whats going to happen, but you can make an educated guess.
halas
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For what it is worth I think it is an education issue. I certainly struggled with the concept when it was first introduced. Every time you land see how much fuel is left over final and you will know how much fuel was available for holding, I have never been within 15 minutes of final.
An A330 takes about 12/1300kgs to get from Desdi so no sh1t fuel from the hold to land is just under 4 tons. If you get to 4 tons in the hold with no sign of an approach; declare an emergency or divert, that is what the company expects.
Most aircraft, unless on a very short sector, actually land well above Final plus Alternate and have 30 plus minutes of holding fuel. Some guys though want to land with Final and Alt and have holding fuel too all after having committed. I cannot understand why anyone sticks on 5 or 6 mins of fuel, I generally do it in 30 minutes chunks at the front of the fog window and more at the other end. The best I have seen so far is a guy adding an extra ton from Melbourne of which only 400 Kgs would have been left on arrival.
An A330 takes about 12/1300kgs to get from Desdi so no sh1t fuel from the hold to land is just under 4 tons. If you get to 4 tons in the hold with no sign of an approach; declare an emergency or divert, that is what the company expects.
Most aircraft, unless on a very short sector, actually land well above Final plus Alternate and have 30 plus minutes of holding fuel. Some guys though want to land with Final and Alt and have holding fuel too all after having committed. I cannot understand why anyone sticks on 5 or 6 mins of fuel, I generally do it in 30 minutes chunks at the front of the fog window and more at the other end. The best I have seen so far is a guy adding an extra ton from Melbourne of which only 400 Kgs would have been left on arrival.
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I see lot of rocket scientist around. Please explain the commitment policy to general public of poor amateurs pilots. Well every body can read it on the FOM but I guess some regulatory body would like to know how it is actually used by the loyalist Ek drivers to push the limits, jeopardizing hundreds of lives, and to show their bravery and obedience to the oberfurher!!! Sieg Heil!
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It doesn't mean that you should expect 20 mins delay on every arrival.
harry
Yes, you literally will have 20 mins when you arrive. However, when you leave your departure airfield, how do you know that you will be able to commit or that you will have an EAT. If you don't, and I don't think that you can say that, then carrying the 20 mins extra is, IMHO, a reasonable justification.
Having said that, I use my experience and judgement to decide on the day. That's what I'm paid for.
Regards,
H-D
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So if you arrive at destination, are given "no delay" and you have min fuel, or even your massive 600kg contingency!
My point is: are you going to use 19 mins of fuel to hold if you can't be assured of landing at destination? Semantics I know, but I'm just making the point.
You might also note in the AIC:
For the final time, I say again that I don't carry the 20 mins on every occasion. I do, however, believe that the way the AIC is written means you can justify the extra fuel if you want it.
My point is: are you going to use 19 mins of fuel to hold if you can't be assured of landing at destination? Semantics I know, but I'm just making the point.
You might also note in the AIC:
The information concerning delays that is passed to the crew by the controller is the best available at the time and takes account of
the expected volume of traffic at the aeroplane’s estimated arrival time.
the expected volume of traffic at the aeroplane’s estimated arrival time.
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Yeah, I'm onboard with Helen - d and those minded people. Harry, I just can't see how committing to dest before leaving the departure airport is sensible, you're asking to get caught out.
The company gives no prizes for he who carries the least fuel, and if they want to p1ss around with min cont. and dpp then they should expect people to add fuel.
The company gives no prizes for he who carries the least fuel, and if they want to p1ss around with min cont. and dpp then they should expect people to add fuel.