EK fuel letter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
From: Sandpit
Can someone please confirm Emirates' policy regarding alternates?
I recently had a conversation with a captain from another locally based operator who stated that they declare the second dubai runway as an alternate. Boy was he surprised when he found out that, in the event of an accident, BOTH would be closed! (picture the landcruisers/patrols/mercs with blacked out windows, all over the airport).
I recently had a conversation with a captain from another locally based operator who stated that they declare the second dubai runway as an alternate. Boy was he surprised when he found out that, in the event of an accident, BOTH would be closed! (picture the landcruisers/patrols/mercs with blacked out windows, all over the airport).
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: Europe
I agree with Trader and White Knight. Make the call to OPS and tell them their options.
By the way, does anybody know the error margings on the fuel indicators of a B 777.
On the 747 it is 1800 kg. So 3000 kg could be 1200 kg or 4800 kg.
So planning to go to an altn with 30 min isn't really an option.
By the way, does anybody know the error margings on the fuel indicators of a B 777.
On the 747 it is 1800 kg. So 3000 kg could be 1200 kg or 4800 kg.
So planning to go to an altn with 30 min isn't really an option.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
Fuel Accuracy on the 777
Pitch Up Authority....According to Boeing, the FQIS on the 777 which supplies info to the totalizer (ie fuel gauges) has a maximum error of +/- 1% with full tanks, improving to +/- 0.5% for a near empty tank.
The fuel flow transmitters, supplying FMC info, have an error of less than 0.5% during cruise conditions. (this info in EK FAQ doc)
777 FCOM also states that displayed totalizer quantity at the start of the flight can be between 99% and 101% of the actual fuel. Calculated is set equal to totalizer fuel before engine start. (therefore, while calculated is supposedly more accurate throughout the flight, it is only as accurate as it was at the start..with totalizer's 1% error rate.)
At the end of the day, I'm not about to put on an extra tonne of gas just because the gauges may be underreading by 1,000kg. It does however open up an interesting debate about which fuel figure you should use towards the end of the flight if there is a discrepancy.
The fuel flow transmitters, supplying FMC info, have an error of less than 0.5% during cruise conditions. (this info in EK FAQ doc)
777 FCOM also states that displayed totalizer quantity at the start of the flight can be between 99% and 101% of the actual fuel. Calculated is set equal to totalizer fuel before engine start. (therefore, while calculated is supposedly more accurate throughout the flight, it is only as accurate as it was at the start..with totalizer's 1% error rate.)
At the end of the day, I'm not about to put on an extra tonne of gas just because the gauges may be underreading by 1,000kg. It does however open up an interesting debate about which fuel figure you should use towards the end of the flight if there is a discrepancy.
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
From: Springfield
Keep in mind that when you commit to DXB, what do you think most of the other EK jets are doing....?
Reality is that a large chunk of the airline are committing to the same destination at the same time, could get exciting.......
Reality is that a large chunk of the airline are committing to the same destination at the same time, could get exciting.......
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Sandpit
Guy D'ageradar
Ok the 380 probably has the slowest min clean speed but can well and truly match all the other types at whatever speed required. All you have to do is ask. 180 till 10 and 160 till 4 is not a problem.
Which reduced landing separation is that then? We still work to the same vortex wake spacings which, in fact, means it's getting worse now as the 380s arrive, especially as they fly so much slower than everyone else! (I don't think I've EVER had one tell me they couldn't fly the standard speeds though)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
From: Sandpit
All you have to do is ask. 180 till 10 and 160 till 4 is not a problem.
The problem is that, on all too regular a basis, these speeds are not complied with. Almost every shift that I have done recently, at least one a380, having read back the aforementiond speed requirement, is found to be doing 135 knots or so, 6 or 7 miles out (asked and confirmed, not just observed groundspeed). Furthermore, no-one seems to think it's worth telling the poor atco who is about to be suspended for losing separation!
I've said it many times on these forums and I'll repeat it again - if you can't comply with the speeds, PLEASE at least let us know. That way, we'll make allowances with the guy behind. Otherwise, someone is going around and I really don't see why it should be the guy who IS flying the speeds.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
From: East Anglia
Does E.K. and their controlling Caa....have a robust system in place that records, publishes, and analyses in great detail all the "arrival" on chocks fuel?
Departure fuel always concerns the company the most...and...arrival fuel always concerns the pilots and passengers the most!
I expect the correct answer to the 20 minutes fuel confusion will be provided by the legal profession... eventually... when they sue the butt of the concerned Captain if he is still alive...and all available if he is not.
Departure fuel always concerns the company the most...and...arrival fuel always concerns the pilots and passengers the most!
I expect the correct answer to the 20 minutes fuel confusion will be provided by the legal profession... eventually... when they sue the butt of the concerned Captain if he is still alive...and all available if he is not.
Last edited by 40&80; 26th October 2010 at 18:14.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: in the kitchen
The best I have seen so far is a guy adding an extra ton from Melbourne of which only 400 Kgs would have been left on arrival.
mad
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
From: East Anglia
The "experts" who introduced the minimum C.F.P policy at Gulf Air told me they accepted and expected up to 5% of flights thus fuelled to divert due to a low fuel state.
They upped their fuel loads when they found it not cost effective in real life. They found they had irate passengers sometimes stuck for hours in all sorts of strange hotels and airports.
They then issued figures to Captains showing the cost of these diversions due fuel and their urgent request that Captains should always seek to avoid a low fuel diversion.
That is how they became... experts.
When asked on a Command interview to describe the Gulf Air fuel policy a F/O
said,... The G.F. fuel policy is very important... I think it is with Norwich Union or possibly Standard Life...he passed.
They upped their fuel loads when they found it not cost effective in real life. They found they had irate passengers sometimes stuck for hours in all sorts of strange hotels and airports.
They then issued figures to Captains showing the cost of these diversions due fuel and their urgent request that Captains should always seek to avoid a low fuel diversion.
That is how they became... experts.
When asked on a Command interview to describe the Gulf Air fuel policy a F/O
said,... The G.F. fuel policy is very important... I think it is with Norwich Union or possibly Standard Life...he passed.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
From: Gulf playing Golf
If you divert with a low fuel state doesnt mean you will land safely at this sometimes rural airport... I personally prefer to have options. I think I will have a longer life after retirement with less stress during my work life..
