EK fuel letter
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Look, reading the posts here, I actually think we're pretty much agreed on 90%, the biggest agreement being that if you need more fuel on the day, take it. But, lets clear up the last 10% and probably the sticking point for most.
I never once said that you can commit before departure. You can't. What I said was that I will have 20 minutes because I have that fuel for my alternate. I comply with the fuel policy and I can legally depart for Dubai. That's a fact and at this stage has nothing to do with committing.
Now we arrive into Dubai. If I am given 'no delay', I know that I should have less than 20 minutes before cleared for approach. Then, in consultation with my colleague(s), decide if conditions are suitable for committing. This will be based on many factors including weather, number of runways, contingency fuel used, amount of alternate fuel etc. If they are, we advise ATC, stay at our destination and use some of the alternate fuel. I have committed twice before. No big deal. This is exactly what the fuel policy has been designed for
Now, if there is a further delay, and you're likely to land with final reserve, you declare a Mayday. God forbid we ever do though. If old sheiky gets to hear about it on the RT, we'll never hear the last of it from his nonsensical posts.
Perhaps it's also worth remembering that if you do decide to divert, and aircraft will, the Company does not ring you up and ask why. They know why and accept these rare occassions as a compromise for the majority of flights taking CFP fuel in normal conditions. Carrying an extra 1.5 tonnes per aircraft every time on a fleet this size adds up to a huge amount.
Harry
I never once said that you can commit before departure. You can't. What I said was that I will have 20 minutes because I have that fuel for my alternate. I comply with the fuel policy and I can legally depart for Dubai. That's a fact and at this stage has nothing to do with committing.
Now we arrive into Dubai. If I am given 'no delay', I know that I should have less than 20 minutes before cleared for approach. Then, in consultation with my colleague(s), decide if conditions are suitable for committing. This will be based on many factors including weather, number of runways, contingency fuel used, amount of alternate fuel etc. If they are, we advise ATC, stay at our destination and use some of the alternate fuel. I have committed twice before. No big deal. This is exactly what the fuel policy has been designed for
Now, if there is a further delay, and you're likely to land with final reserve, you declare a Mayday. God forbid we ever do though. If old sheiky gets to hear about it on the RT, we'll never hear the last of it from his nonsensical posts.
Perhaps it's also worth remembering that if you do decide to divert, and aircraft will, the Company does not ring you up and ask why. They know why and accept these rare occassions as a compromise for the majority of flights taking CFP fuel in normal conditions. Carrying an extra 1.5 tonnes per aircraft every time on a fleet this size adds up to a huge amount.
Harry
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It's so assuring to know that EK pilots are not very sure of their Fuel Policy when it's the most important part of the flight.
I think we shouldn't be intimidated by letters from the company.
1st, we need to be sure of the policy and take what you really need and if it is justified. The days of taking 1 tonne extra just so to be comfortable is long gone. We fly in an airline. You are an airline Captain. Act like one and uplift fuel responsibly. Or not let's just fill her up to the top and let's go.
I think we shouldn't be intimidated by letters from the company.
1st, we need to be sure of the policy and take what you really need and if it is justified. The days of taking 1 tonne extra just so to be comfortable is long gone. We fly in an airline. You are an airline Captain. Act like one and uplift fuel responsibly. Or not let's just fill her up to the top and let's go.
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I think Harry is totally correct. With that said, depending on the time and WX, I do carry extra in order to give me more time before I commit, or to avoid arriving in my alternate with final reserve only. As an example, a KWI-DXB, arriving at peak time with poor WX, I would probably take some extra, because my contingency would be only 600Kg (5 min).
Last edited by pitoss; 23rd Oct 2010 at 09:04.
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This is a sign of the times and a fairly common practice across Europe for sure.
It might be a sign that Emirates has grown and expanded with some "legacy" crews who just "fill em up". Can't do that these days sorry
It might be a sign that Emirates has grown and expanded with some "legacy" crews who just "fill em up". Can't do that these days sorry
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I don't see anyone saying they just "fill it up" anywhere, so the drama queens need to step down a bit. People put onboard exactly what they feel they need on the day, and that is exactly what a captain should do, otherwise he/she is straight out of their comfort zone. There is nothing heroic about taking min fuel, and acegreaser your comments like "we fly in an airline, you are a captain" blah blah blah is bollocks.
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Carry what you think you need of course. However, looking at some old flight plans I keep when I land with less than 4.0 (Boeing) and some recent ones......the OFP flight plans you from Desdi to land on 30L to burn only 900 kgs. Nine out of ten times when arriving at the "push" times the Boeing will burn anywhere from 2.0 to 2.5. And this is after the holding or whatever. Next time check the fuel at Desdi and then see what it is on landing. Again, this is just at the high density times. On checking the arrival from Desdi to 12L, the standard flight plan is for 800 kgs. What do you think you're going to land with if the runway changes to 30?
Just a couple of thoughts. So right from the beginning, most flights will use up all of the contingency fuel, not to mention all flights going in the same direction usually on the same routes and getting flight planned altitudes can be a challenge.
Just a couple of thoughts. So right from the beginning, most flights will use up all of the contingency fuel, not to mention all flights going in the same direction usually on the same routes and getting flight planned altitudes can be a challenge.
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What's the big deal ?
It is really very simple. Contingency covers unexpected situations. For all the rest you need to carry the fuel. If you go to LHR at a certain time and day of wich you know it is reasonable to expect a delay then you have to carry the fuel. You can not use your contingency for that.
The seabreeze in DXB is very predictable .... so 30 L is what you take.
LVP simply take 30 min
NP simply take 30 min if vis is lower than MDH x 6 .... that is what you need to see the RWY from your MDH
OFP gives you a constant decent while reality is the opposit .... take some extra.
After every flight keep a copy of OFP and WX and reflect on your decision. Soon you will get very accurate. Make it a habit to bet with yourself what your landing fuel will be at the moment you decide your uplift.
The seabreeze in DXB is very predictable .... so 30 L is what you take.
LVP simply take 30 min
NP simply take 30 min if vis is lower than MDH x 6 .... that is what you need to see the RWY from your MDH
OFP gives you a constant decent while reality is the opposit .... take some extra.
After every flight keep a copy of OFP and WX and reflect on your decision. Soon you will get very accurate. Make it a habit to bet with yourself what your landing fuel will be at the moment you decide your uplift.
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You are 100% correct. What it states is that aircraft must arrive with enough fuel to allow for up to 20 minutes, not an 'extra' 20 minutes. This is simply to allow for the 'no delay' scenario where aircraft will be expected to assume 'up to 20 minutes' without being given an ETA. Same as UK.
As I keep saying until i'm blue in the face, EK's fuel policy and that of many other operators covers that. Some airlines don't have alternate fuel, and it's for those airlines that the requirement was published. Some operators were arriving with destination fuel, a small amount of contingency and final reserves!
Reading all this, I have to agree with acegreaser's post.
Harry
You are 100% correct. What it states is that aircraft must arrive with enough fuel to allow for up to 20 minutes, not an 'extra' 20 minutes. This is simply to allow for the 'no delay' scenario where aircraft will be expected to assume 'up to 20 minutes' without being given an ETA. Same as UK.
As I keep saying until i'm blue in the face, EK's fuel policy and that of many other operators covers that. Some airlines don't have alternate fuel, and it's for those airlines that the requirement was published. Some operators were arriving with destination fuel, a small amount of contingency and final reserves!
Reading all this, I have to agree with acegreaser's post.
Harry
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Originally Posted by mas
I'm a bit confused, how can you guys hold for two hours on 20 mins extra fuel?
Let me explain - if it's foggy then carry loads of fuel. If it's 11am arrival and CAVOK forecast then why carry extra? Maybe you should re-read Harry's posts as he explains the 20 minutes in simple terms that even other pilots should be able to understand
Originally Posted by sma
Please explain the commitment policy to general public of poor amateurs pilots.
It's really very simple and has been around for a lot longer then EK's adoption of this policy...
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Thanks White Knight, finally someone has called a spade a spade.....
Come on guys its NOT that complicated..and yet why oh why do some choose to try to over-complicate a pretty bloody simple concept??
Fer fecks sake, we usually carry fuel for MCT anyway when its foggy..we operate to a 2 runway airport..theres another runway a couple of miles away..plus another..then another.. why all the ball-ache with committing to destination?
Sheeessh, anyone would think half of you get pucker twitch operating to Europe when theres a bit of fog or ice around..oh hang on a minute..you do!
FWIW, committing to destination has been around for a looooong time..its how things work in the London TMA fer fecks sake
What would I know though, I'm a lowly F/O with no EK command exp
Come on guys its NOT that complicated..and yet why oh why do some choose to try to over-complicate a pretty bloody simple concept??
Fer fecks sake, we usually carry fuel for MCT anyway when its foggy..we operate to a 2 runway airport..theres another runway a couple of miles away..plus another..then another..
why all the ball-ache with committing to destination? Sheeessh, anyone would think half of you get pucker twitch operating to Europe when theres a bit of fog or ice around..oh hang on a minute..you do!
FWIW, committing to destination has been around for a looooong time..its how things work in the London TMA fer fecks sake
What would I know though, I'm a lowly F/O with no EK command exp
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Thank you for your gentle words, Mr Knight.
DXB = 30 mins, more if wx bad. That is not very often.
LHR = 30 mins, 60 if forecast is bad. There is now way I'll ditch my alternate going into LHR. To get into that situation there would be major delays and I would not be comfortable to continue in the hold without diversion fuel. However, last time I had to hold for a long time, LON ATC asked all aircraft if they could hold for one hour. Yes = hold. No = Stanstead.
Then again, our commanders are authorized to carry the fuel we require, no questions asked.
DXB = 30 mins, more if wx bad. That is not very often.
LHR = 30 mins, 60 if forecast is bad. There is now way I'll ditch my alternate going into LHR. To get into that situation there would be major delays and I would not be comfortable to continue in the hold without diversion fuel. However, last time I had to hold for a long time, LON ATC asked all aircraft if they could hold for one hour. Yes = hold. No = Stanstead.
Then again, our commanders are authorized to carry the fuel we require, no questions asked.
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Then again, our commanders are authorized to carry the fuel we require, no questions asked
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pool---you shouldn't be offloading bags or pax anyway...well not unilaterally anyway. The simple solution is to call ops, tells them you need x amount of fuel and let THEM make the decisions!!
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For some reason during an enroute check we find ourself a little short of fuel.
We check the weather at destination and the facilities available and if the wx is ok and certain paramaters are satisfied we continue to destination even if we will not have the alternate fuel. This is the way it is written not so clearly.
The opacity is there in order to make loyal and uncritical crew believe that such a policy can be used instead as an escamotage to burn the alternate fuel in the holding and try to please the Oberfuhrer avoiding as much as possible going to alternates cause that costs money and Oberfurher needs a bonus for buying a new car to that cocksucker of his daughter and for the new golf club membership. Beside that he has still to maintain his mistress in Bangkok....
Such practice is simply ILLEGAL and already a few found them self in deep ****.
The 400 + plus people you carry they don`t give a **** about Dubai`s debts, your self serving attitude, your ****** up ego. They want to get safe at destination...or at an alternate. EK = Animal's Farm.
We check the weather at destination and the facilities available and if the wx is ok and certain paramaters are satisfied we continue to destination even if we will not have the alternate fuel. This is the way it is written not so clearly.
The opacity is there in order to make loyal and uncritical crew believe that such a policy can be used instead as an escamotage to burn the alternate fuel in the holding and try to please the Oberfuhrer avoiding as much as possible going to alternates cause that costs money and Oberfurher needs a bonus for buying a new car to that cocksucker of his daughter and for the new golf club membership. Beside that he has still to maintain his mistress in Bangkok....
Such practice is simply ILLEGAL and already a few found them self in deep ****.
The 400 + plus people you carry they don`t give a **** about Dubai`s debts, your self serving attitude, your ****** up ego. They want to get safe at destination...or at an alternate. EK = Animal's Farm.
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you shouldn't be offloading bags or pax anyway...well not unilaterally anyway. The simple solution is to call ops, tells them you need x amount of fuel and let THEM make the decision
if you let THEM make the decision, then what's your fourth stripe for?
if their decision is no additional and you deem it necessary, what do you do?
you say you should not offload pax or bags, so you offload necessary fuel?
I know my questions are somewhat rhethoric, but it all runs down to what others pretended on earlier contributions: Who decides how much fuel has to be put on? Is it the CAA/GCAA, is it the company or is it finally the one who sits nervously on his back side in the steel tube itself when the dream team of ATC is on shift during peak?
If this whole thing starts getting ruled by statistics letters or warning letters, then safety takes a hit. I agree we should weed out the overcautious, but there's a constructive and educative way and there's unfortunately the EK way
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pol--actually I agree with you --just should have worded my response more clearly!!
Basically, my idea is to pass the act of the decision onwords. In this example, if you need fuel you are going to take it but the decision to actually offload the bags/pax has to be made by the company which, I think, is fair enough. The co. says no to the offload then you give them the options---OK, if we don't have the fuel I don't feel comfortable and a diversion is likely. I would even talk personally SNMC and let them know that I WANT that fuel but the decision is theirs (maybe add that you will not be using discretion either).
This happened all summer with SFO and the co. elected for the tech stops. Their call. Where it gets frustrating is that the SFO flight can be planned with a tech stop and, with delays, the duty can go to 22 hours.
In any case, in most situation it works well to to give the guys in ops choices you are comfortable with and let them make the decision. If it ever comes back to you then you can say THEY made the call.
Of course, this can be done quite deviously as well
Basically, my idea is to pass the act of the decision onwords. In this example, if you need fuel you are going to take it but the decision to actually offload the bags/pax has to be made by the company which, I think, is fair enough. The co. says no to the offload then you give them the options---OK, if we don't have the fuel I don't feel comfortable and a diversion is likely. I would even talk personally SNMC and let them know that I WANT that fuel but the decision is theirs (maybe add that you will not be using discretion either).
This happened all summer with SFO and the co. elected for the tech stops. Their call. Where it gets frustrating is that the SFO flight can be planned with a tech stop and, with delays, the duty can go to 22 hours.
In any case, in most situation it works well to to give the guys in ops choices you are comfortable with and let them make the decision. If it ever comes back to you then you can say THEY made the call.
Of course, this can be done quite deviously as well
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Originally Posted by Trader
This happened all summer with SFO
