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Alpha Aviation Academy

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Alpha Aviation Academy

Old 29th Jul 2012, 16:04
  #501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: 30k
Posts: 71
@ honestpilot...no need to do another ground school. I am from old school of thought and would still prefer to go via the conventional route of CPL/IR...however this is one of the good sides of MPL..it's is basically a frozen ATP (as per the carops). If you go to alpha they should be able to give you the ref...in the mean time let me see if I can dig out from my old documentation. I had done a comparative study between MPL/CPL and had gone thru the entire MPL regs...you will however have to do a skill-test (check ride) once you have the required hours....

@ pfpnf and vfenext...obviously u cannot log PIC! But can log PIC(US) I.e under supervision...these hours are counted towards requirements for the issue of higher grade of license...From the GCAA licensing part II below:

2.1.10 Crediting of Flight Time

2.1.10.1 A student pilot or the holder of a pilot licence shall be entitled to be credited in full with all solo, dual instruction and pilot in command flight time towards the total flight time required for the initial issue of a pilot licence or the issue of a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.10.2 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, he/she shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.10.3 The holder of a pilot licence when acting as co-pilot performing under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the functions and duties of a pilot-in-command, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.


Hope this helps...cheers
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Old 29th Jul 2012, 16:09
  #502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lagos
Posts: 766
The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, he/she shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

This is common in most ICAO countries but this does not mean that if you are PF you will be given 50% of the time as PIC. 50% of the time will count towards your ATPL. Co-pilot time PF or PNF is 50% that counts towards the ATPL. Total Time remains the same.

You have to be under supervision. I would really like to know from people here if ABY offers it. If you are not PIC under supervision you cannot log this towards the ATPL even if you are PF.
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Old 29th Jul 2012, 16:15
  #503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: 30k
Posts: 71
I know it's being done at ABY...just don't know the exact logistics...maybe the new FOs can throw some light....Marlim/etc where are you?????
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Old 29th Jul 2012, 23:44
  #504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 16
Are you sure about that? Heard that once you have 1500 hours you also get an ATPL since you already passed the subjects. Also Alpha says on their FAQ:

'With an MPL license you only need to acquire 1.500 hours of flying experience to turn your license in to a worldwide recognized Full ATPL license. There are no additional exams or test required for the conversion.'
The questions and concerns regarding MPL to ATPL are and have been approached numerous of times. As much as anyone can copy paste extracts from the CAR's or ICAO regulations it all comes down to interpretation of the law.
To justify this is the current situation not only in the UAE but also in the Philippines. Like myself, there are many MPL First officers, in both countries, who have reached more than 1500 hours logged in. And at this moment neither ATO has authorized a MPL conversion into an ATPL.
It becomes fruitless everyone here giving their opinion, even when its based on the CAR's because people in the right positions in their countries ATO, have and are discussing this matter.
I am happy this topic was approached because it seems to be another miss presentation on Alpha Aviation Group's FAQ part on their website to lure those with flying aspirations.

G-FULL
As much as everyone here will copy/paste definitions from the CAR's to either justify their point of view or give reason to what they are trying to say. The fact of the matter is that, like myself, no one with more than 1500 hours logged on the A320 have been able to convert to an ATPL.
Please take this information into consideration as you pursue your carrier as a pilot. I do wish you the best of success.
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 01:13
  #505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 177
stormiscoming
The fact of the matter is that, like myself, no one with more than 1500 hours logged on the A320 have been able to convert to an ATPL.
.. have you logged 1500 hrs on A320 under the MPL ?

Any regulator who has issued you the MPL will issue you the ATPL once you complete all the published requirements for the ATPL. When a country accepted the ICAO MPL; the regulator will recognise all hours flown under the MPL. GCAA & CAAP will do the same.
Hence you should have no issue ins converting your MPL to a standard ATPL once you have met the requirements.
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 02:52
  #506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 16
To answer your question nicely, Yes.
Not only have I logged a lot more then 1500 hours on type A320, so has many of my other colleagues in the various airlines in the Philippines. And from my knowledge so have the cadets that went to Air Arabia from Clark Av.

To answer the same question bluntly, Yes dear, why you would ask such a stupid question is beyond my comprehension since its clearly stated that, not only myself but many others have a MPL with more than 1500 hours.

Again one must ask the big question to you. Just how much do you know of what you are marketing. It is clear to everyone here for awhile now, that your knowledge is limited to what AAG tells you, and that you understand AAG past the way they want you to know. And that's fine with us, no one can blame you for what you know have been told and what in fact is the truth.

Advice has been given to you by many to stick to the marketing side, which is what you get paid to do in any case. No one will throw a stone at someone who does a good honest job.
So again, stick to posting facebook links and what not but don't talk about things you have no idea about. If you have any doubts on an issue, check, verify and check again before posting.
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Old 30th Jul 2012, 07:57
  #507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lagos
Posts: 766
@storm

That clears up a lot. Did they give you PIC under supervision? From my understanding it is not done.

How much PIC total time do you have? Is that the reason for the delay?
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 03:34
  #508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 67
k so now you are basically saying that storm and his colleagues are lying?

To get an ATPL u need a CPL. Not the same as an MPL

Essentially, the MPL is not a portable license, and was never intended to be.

And if what ua re saying is true please show us PROOF.

Something which you fail at every time!

Last edited by honestpilot; 31st Jul 2012 at 03:35.
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Old 31st Jul 2012, 08:52
  #509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 16
bliss

No Strato, the only ignorant here is you and it seems you have no problems in telling the world that your one, with the type of "factual" posts you write.

You are the spitting example of when people say "IGNORANCE IS BLISS".

You and Alpha Aviation Group have the same professional and operating standards and so neither of you belong in the aviation business.... [quoteJust pop along to your licensing authority, fill in the correct paperwork and Bob's your uncle][/quote] In the real World there are rules, regulations and Laws that everyone has to abide by and follow.
Its the same "Bob's your uncle" attitude, the whole reason why AAG has the mess they have right now.
And NO again strato, no one will also forget the "EMOTIVE" side of the that AAG has and still causes. Flying is a carrier as it is a passion for all of us and having a company like ALPHA AVIATON GROUP mess with the dreams of people just for a "buck" with a "Bob's your uncle" professional standard, is a sin.
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 03:15
  #510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Abu Dhabi
Age: 31
Posts: 250
PICUS Hours

Hi Guys, just to clarify things about MPL/ATPL conversion & the way we ABY FOs Log our hours...

A GCAA MPL can be upgraded/changed to ATPL Provided you meat the following:
- Completed ATPL Ground School/GCAA exams
- Total of 1500 hours of flight time of which:
1. Only a Max of 100 hours of Sim time can be considered (proper licensed Sim)
2. Minimum of 500 Hours of PIC or PIC(US) time
3. Certain Number of Minimum Cross-Countries to do (Not Applicable to us)...since we are Cross-Country(s) flyers
4. Some night time as PF or PNF doesn't matter
- ATPL Check (can be done on a real aircraft or Sim...usually Sim) done by ANY certified GCAA examiner...usually FOs here do it when they go for their PPCs (Pilot Proficiency Check) that is done twice a year as usual...

That is as far as I know about the requirements for ATPL


Going to the Logbook Part:

Whenever I am the PF, I log the hours in the PIC column, then write in the remarks on the far right side "PICUS" and ask the Captain to sign for me just beside it with his ATPL License number...this was an email from the GCAA inspector to us, the email included the 500 hour requirement aswell
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 03:22
  #511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 177
GCAA has also lowered the required number of base training for all future AAG MPL cadets .. 9 TO and LNDG from the earlier requirement of 12 TO/LNDG.

This is after regular reports complied by ABY training team to GCAA to prove the flying capability of MPL cadets.

Another sign MPL is fast gaining more acceptance.

Air Arabia current fleet consist of 27 new Airbus A320 aircraft. The company has an existing order with for 44 Airbus A320 aircraft.
Fleet | Air Arabia

given the expansion plans more MPL cadets will be needed.

Last edited by RP-C000; 1st Aug 2012 at 03:25.
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 08:41
  #512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lagos
Posts: 766
Thanks marlim,

So it looks like they are letting you log PIC Under Supervision.

If someone could post the relevant CAR or Advisory circular regarding MPL. That would be great.
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 08:46
  #513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 67
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this quote is that for an examiner to be able to observe the required number of tasks to be completed satisfactorily during (fair weather) MPL base training, a minimum of 9 T&L were found to be required--no doubt to save time and money for the airline, which are two very good reasons indeed. But you cannot use this data to broadly support any statements about the abilities of MPL-trained pilots.
I agree with this 100%. The students from the previous batch all told me that the number of T/O and Landings are not confirmed. Apparently there was a meeting with one of the officers from Air Arabia. He apparently told the students that they will change their programmes to suit the quality of the MPL programme
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 12:15
  #514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 177
GCAA shares e-licensing experience with Bahraini counterpart | GCAA | AMEinfo.com

The General Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA), represented by Licensing Department, received a delegation from the Kingdome of Bahrain Civil Aviation Affairs. The delegation headed by Eng. Adel Al Sabah, Chief Aviation Permits and licensing, was received by Captain Khalid Humaid Al Ali, Director of Licensing at GCAA, along with several representations from aeromedical section and E-licensing team.



The visit took place in GCAA's Regional Office in Dubai last week.

The visit comes in line with GCAA and Bahraini Civil Aviation Affairs' efforts exchange experience and expertise about license, and specifically in the e-licensing service launched by GCAA last months.

"E-Licensing service reflects the framework of the UAE Government aiming at developing electronic services across all governmental sectors," expressed Captain Al Ali, Director of Licensing at GCAA.

"Implementing E-licensing would save a lot of time for pilots, engineers and others working in the aviation sector and we are glad to share our experience with other states in the GCC region." Al Ali added.

An official visit to Alpha Aviation Academy took place where both delegates were received by the Academy Quality Manager and Head of Training.
A prolonged brief and representation of the Academy activities have been discussed with a focus on the Multi-Crew Pilot License (MPL) Program as one of the promising programs in the aviation sector.

GCAA's Licensing department issued during last month alone 1,163 license varied between Cabin Crew, Air Traffic Controller, and aeromedical licensing.
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 12:22
  #515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Abu Dhabi
Age: 31
Posts: 250
MPL

Guys, I can read in other people's posts that MPL's quality & outcome is not good or not upto the standard or not trust worthy...etc.

My friends & I (guys who made it through line training & who are still doing it from the other batches) would say something else, I am 100% sure if I wasn't upto the standards ABY wouldn't pass me in the line training & let me become the SECOND in Command, so please give me & Air Arabia a break here...want to go after AAG, it is a COMPLETELY different story...but kep in-mind that ABY's feedback & our feedback is present & a lot has changed to make it more practical (unlike a normal abinitio CPL training)

Almost every single Captain doesn't care whether I am MPL or CPL (alotough very very few did & I personally changed their opinion as well as my friends, especially from Top of Descent to approach & landing), as long as I have the 3 stripes NOBODY cares, some of them would be interested in "since when I joined the Company" and if anybody from my family is with ABY...etc. normal colleague to colleague discussion...

@ pfvspnf, no wories...my pleasure ^_^ I will try to find something regarding it, but as far as GCAA MPL is concerned, we are following the PIC(US) recording procedure that the GCAA told us about (what I mentioned in my latest post)

FYI, CAAP MPL holders who came into UAE & are now with ABY, are currently under the process, I will ask them & get back to you about the LIVE conversion process, I guess being a previous CAAP license holder would need some more work...just a guess though...brb
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 12:23
  #516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 177
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If someone could post the relevant CAR or Advisory circular regarding MPL. That would be great.
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 14:43
  #517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 67
marlim none of us are saying anything bad about Air Arabia or ur flying skills!

Infact tarasb praised Air Arabia!

What we are saying is that it maybe difficult to change MPL into ATPL. After all ATPL is slightly harder and more time consuming!

When i searched the net I got negative feedback which did not exactly please me!
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 15:57
  #518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 43
I've been all through the GCAA website and there is nothing about the conversion of MPL into a Full ATPL but I will give them the benefit of the doubt because their website CAAP/CAR's have not been updated since 2010. I have sent an official letter to the GCAA in order to query about the conversion and will let you guys know what's the outcome.

In contrast, I contacted AAG and this is exactly what they said

With an MPL license you only need to acquire 1.500 hours of flying experience to turn your license in to a worldwide recognized Full ATPL license. There are no additional exams or test required for the conversion.
and

After completing the required line training plus the guaranteed flying hours with our partner airline, you will be equipped with 1.500 flying hours, which makes you eligible to get your ATPL license. There are no additional exams or test required for this conversion. An ATPL license is recognized worldwide.
It is not possible to convert an MPL into a CPL license or vice versa at any time.
Let's see what the GCAA will answer.

GFULL
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 18:44
  #519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 67
if what AAg says is true then here is some info for you.

I planned to leave AAG after i had completed my ground school exams. I went to a few of the flying school across the middle east and they all asked me to redo the ground school exams. To make matters worse I had to resit the whole of the ground school hours!?

Why? Because I was doing the MPL.

If it is so easy to convert then why is it that i had such difficulty. I provided them with proof that I passed all my exams. Yet, they showed no interest.

If an MPL can be converted when u do the 1500 hours then sure;y u can convert the exams. Same books and same exams after all.
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Old 1st Aug 2012, 21:08
  #520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin VOCI , India
Age: 31
Posts: 1,610
My opinion on the MPL program

1. From my limited knowledge of the MPL program it contains more simulator hours on a full flight simulator ( take the A320 for eg ) before the candidates are sent for line training on the actual aircraft . I believe this is in excess of 100 hours on an FFS
Am I right ?

2. Compare that to a regular low hour CPL holder who receives on average 34-50 hours on average on the Full Flight Simulator before being released to the actual aircraft for flying duties . These hours are the bare minimum required to be qualified on the said aircraft type .

Comparing the above two an MPL holder will naturally perform better in flying a multi crew aircraft due to the higher number of hours in the full motion sim than your average low hour CPL holder

How many agree with me in the above said point ?

An MPL holder will have more time to fiddle around in the sim , make mistakes , learn from them....... than a bare CPL holder who has to use the limited amount of SIM time to learn as much as they can learn .

Why the limited amount of SIM time for a bare CPL holder ?

Money ofcourse .

It costs a lot money to train someone in excess of 100 hours on a Full Flight Sim . Something the airlines have been avoiding all this while even though they knew from before that it takes a lot more than the bare minimum to teach someone to properly fly a Multi Crew Jet Engined Aircraft .

Now that the MPL program has come up airlines can easily pass this cost on to the candidate .

I believe that for the MPL program to survive airlines in the future will have to bear the cost or a part of the cost of training as there are only a hand full of people who will be able to pay the cost of an MPL program . If they dont pay for it , it will lead to a pilot shortage .


Cyril Roy

Last edited by cyrilroy21; 1st Aug 2012 at 21:08.
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