American Pilots at Emirates

[mensaboy]

All pilots considering EK should seek out the answers to their questions before taking the plunge. Although the average American pilot is a good guy and well educated, they struggle more with certain aspects of EK's operation and Dubai in general, than most other pilots. We all struggle with these issues but our USA colleagues arrive here ill-prepared for the reality of the situation.

It is fair to say that our American colleagues have generally led a sheltered life. This is not an indictment on them but rather the reality of the situation.

Granted, there are some great aspects to living in Dubai, such as our memberships to certain Resorts/Clubs and the minimal tax implications but everyone has to overcome the myriad of negative aspects of life in Dubai and our working conditions at EK.

The INDIVIDUAL has no recourse in a society like the UAE or a company like Emirates and this is the most difficult obstacle for American pilots to tolerate. Throw into the equation the higher expectations of western women and it is no wonder that there is such a high incidence of divorce and marital strife which will greatly magnify the negatives of Dubai.

If you are unhappy with your present 'lot in life', then Dubai and Emirates might be the best option for you. But if you are a happily married man (or woman) with a half-decent job and you are thinking that EK might be a better option, then you might want to step back and reconsider things.

I don't know what it will be, but there is definitely something that will happen here in the Middle East (perhaps even worldwide), that will dramatically detract from our present conditions. Emirates keeps announcing more and more aircraft purchases (it's quite exciting actually), but keep in mind that this is the same mentality that almost destroyed Dubai. Bigger is not always better!

Darn it all, bring on the Yanks because I prefer sitting next to them on any given flight, chatting about things that interest us. But be forewarned, upgrade timeframes are already increasing and in all likelihood they will extend to more than 7 years for new-joiners and that is not taking into considertion the possible downfall of this place.

There are storm clouds on the horizon in my opinion and if I am even partially correct, then things are going to get ugly in the next few years. I hope to be gone before the ****e hits the fan! haha

[halas]

Boy, that sounds a bit terminal Mensa. Hope you get/feel better real soon!

halas

[mensaboy]

What do you mean? I got life by the balls and feel great!

Apparently it is difficult for stupid people to accept reality. I am not predicting the end of the world, just that it seems improbable that the Middle East will become the Mecca of aviation in the future. If anyone thinks that coming to Dubai will result in their happiness over the next 10 years, then they are sadly mistaken.

I am here now and ejoying life, taking advantage of the good things and doing my best to tolerate the bad things yet it seems probable that these temporary perks will disappear. It is just a matter of time and hopefully that timeframe will be longer than 5 years. My goodness, Dubai was THE place to be as short as 2 years ago, now look at it!

The same people who control Dubai, control Emirates. That fact in itself should be a dire prediction for this airline.

[jackbauer]

Someone put Mensa on suicide watch, on second thoughts let him wallow in his own misery. One look at the word count in his posts tells you what an over inflated opinion he has of himself. He's not happy and he won't be happy until you're not happy too. Tw^t

[porkandbrew]

Virgin America

If I were american, I would keep my eyes on Virgin America. 60 more Airbuses announced at Farnborough! ME is getting very tough despite huge profits for EK last fiscal year.
pork

[Royalblue]

Virgin America????this is a big laugh...RJ captains will have to take a paycut for 5 years till they match what they are making atm. Many new Joiners are ex RJ captains that got downgraded due to recession. Better off in EK that being an undercut fo doing 30 mins roundtrips to Michigan, wisconsin etc etc. At least there is some level of respect there compare to the states... Sorry to say that but US aviation will never be the same as it used to be. I am sick an tired every day that I go to work ... EK is a very good option for a lot of US pilots and yes 7 years is nothing. FOs in United are furloughed with 10 years of seniority and you whine for 7 year of upgrade? Even Eagle has 10-11 years to be a Ca on the 145....Cheers

[atpcliff]

Guys off the RJs were very very lucky to get a job on a widebody jet in the first place. Bet you couldnt do that jump back home. I couldnt where I come from.

In the US, things are a lot different, which is the main reason why it IS difficult for US guys going overseas.

In the US, you are hired based on minimums, which are typically Total time, Multiengine time, sometimes PIC time, sometimes turbine time.

Once they are hired, they are elligible for ANY open airframe...regardless of your background. AND, once you are hired, you moving to another aircraft or FO-->Capt are STRICTLY based on seniority, NOTHING ELSE. The ONLY way not to make Capt when your seniority is high enough (and you meet the insurance minimums), is to not bid for it, or to not make it through training.

What this means, is that guys hired at a major airline who have only flown a Beech 1900, or a King Air, or a little Citation (or a Flight Instructor, with almost all C-172 time, and a little multiengine time), can be assigned a wide-body aircraft as a new-hire, if there are open spots (this was happening at DAL the last time they hired, and has happended MANY times in the US at many different airlines). If you are on a DC-9 as an FO, you can go to directly to the 747-400 as a Captain, if your seniority is high enough.

It seems to me that many foreign flying organizations (like EK), place a lot of restrictions on who can move to, or become captain on which aircraft. I am not saying that one way is better than the other, just that the US system is different from many non-US systems.

On a similar vein, it is also difficult for Americans to adjust to living overseas, as in America things are much more standardized across the country, and they are much more sheltered. The country is so big, and it's physically separated from the other continents, so that many, many people never leave the US, except maybe to go to Cancun (which is 100% Americanized, as far as I'm concerned, which is one of the reasons why I hate Cancun).

I know two prevous US-based families that went to EK. One HATED it and quit right away, and the other likes it a lot. Guess which one was more flexible, and adoptable.

cliff
LFW
PS-When my CEO (the wife) told her friends and co-workers that she was taking the kids on vacation to Africa, almost everyone was shocked beyond belief. Typical.

[nolimitholdem]

Better off in EK that being an undercut fo doing 30 mins roundtrips to Michigan, wisconsin etc etc. At least there is some level of respect there compare to the states...

if you honestly believe you will receive more respect as a pilot in Emirates than you did in the US you have absolutely no clue, zero, about the reality of working for Emirates. Do not confuse money with respect. You will receive more money at Emirates perhaps, mainly due to the fact there is no income tax (yet) but make no mistake every effort is made to calculate to the DIRHAM what the least amount is they can pay and still keep their employees. You will be regarded with complete contempt that will vary from hypocritically trying to hide it behind flowery words, to thinly veiled, to outright openly expressed.

Don't kid yourself about respect. As a pilot you are a barely-tolerated evil that somehow the company manages to turn a profit in spite of. It doesn't help that not a single manager seems to actually DO the job they administrate. Combined with the petty class envy that pervades the culture it's a deadly combination. If a couple of the clowns from EGHQ actually tried to work some of the pilot rosters of the last year they might tone down the hate a little, right quick.

I totally agree with mensa about the decline of Emirates, which I think is only lagging the parallel decline of its host city. It's the equivalent of the housing and market bubbles...spectacular growth followed by spectacular retrench. The ever-increasing shrillness of the denial of this only serves this belief. But hey nothing that goes up can ever go down, right all you savvy property investors?

I say the original poster SHOULD join...at the very least it would give him a new appreciation for the good old US of A, the odd time he can string enough days together to go home...

[leadingedge12]

Give up 12 years seniority at a union protected company for overseas work? You must really hate where you work to even think about that move.

[CAVnotOK]

Whilst I agree with most things posted in regard to EK and Dubai, I really don't think that the success of Emirates has anything to do with the success (or failure) of Dubai.

Emirates has really built its success purely using Dubai as a Hub connecting passengers to wherever they want to go in the world. True, they have tried to market Dubai in a massive way with many thousands of free hotel rooms etc, but many people stay for 2 or 3 days just to have a "look".

I would be interested in finding out the average length of stay in Dubai for passengers inbound to Dubai. I would say that an overwhelming percentage of EK passengers are transit, and nothing else.

Dubai needs EK, and EK really only needs DXB Int'l.

Cav.

[Payscale]

I think you are wrong. EK and Dubai are two sides of the same coin.
Emirates would not have had it success if it wasnt in Dubai.
The owners of the Airline are also the rules of Dubai. Thats a key to success. I know we compete on equal terms, or so they insist, with other operators, but those are very good terms. Airport tax in DXB is a fraction of other hubs, hence EK can sell cheaper tickets. Labor cost are a fraction of other comparable airlines. Im not talking about pilot salaries, but the whole work force.
Just imagine they move the whole operation to Rome (i think they need a new national carrier). Do you honestly think EK would do as well as in DXB?

[jetzdrvr]

rj can't jump to a heavy in the US???? Where did you get your facts from? There are several guys I know personally flying a heavy at Fedex that used to be rj drivers.

Not to mention some who went on to fly 747s at some of the small cargo operators.

[CAVnotOK]

Payscale,

I agree with the points you make, and a lot of EK's success definately comes from it's very low cost base.

However, Dubai's central geographical location also gives them access to almost every market globally.

My main point is that Emirates doesn't require Dubai to thrive as a city for them to continue their success as an airline. Depending of course on how the owners play their cards.

Cav.

[Payscale]

CAK
Got your point and agree. As long as the government of Dubai grants them the same operating conditions as previous, as they obviously will since...hmmm. they are the government, whey will continue to prosper. I am amazed that they can get financing for all these aircraft.

I didnt know that the previously mentioned RJ guys could start as FOs on heavy iron with FedEx. I would have expected them to start as relief/second officer. Anyway... good on them mate

[MachAF]

Question about the retirement:

It says 12% of pay is matched and you are required to contribute 5%. Is the 12% starting right away? Or is 12% after year 7?

Also when do they change the contract (if you want to call it that)? Anytime they want or once a year in January?

Thanks

[nolimitholdem]

MachAF,

The EK cheerleaders on here will be quick to point out that the worthless "contract" you signed contains enough weasel language to allow EK to change the terms as you may understand them at their discretion if their "needs" dictate. The place is all about vagueness and deception.

Their "needs" strangely always seem to involve taking, reducing, or restricting something away you once enjoyed.

So no, these changes don't come at any set time, they come out as memos on an irregular basis. For example the changing of productivity (overtime) thresholds from 78 to 92 hours/month. That came out as a weasel-speak letter.

You join on one set of conditions, you are handed another. Please do get used to the idea if you plan on applying.

[Instant Hooligan]

Mach,
The provident(retirement) fund consists of 3 accounts. A account, the one EK contributes the 12% into from the day you join. B account, the one you contribute 5% of your base salary into(mandatory) and then a C account, which is a voluntary only account which you contribute to with no matching from the company, a savings plan if you wish.

Also note that company 12% is on base salary and does not include flying pay.

Here's where the 7 years comes into action. The A account will not be fully vested until 7 years, after 5 years I think you get 75% of its value and for time before that a ratio of your monthly salary x the number of years of service.
There are more in depth details but that's the jist of it.

[ekpilot]

You are coming to the Middle East

Always remember that you leaving a country where laws mean kinda something and coming to the wild wild Middle East where laws are there just to say they have laws. Even with a bullet proof contract they will find a way to screw you. Come on just be aware of what you will have to live with from now on. Up to until 4 years ago it was not so obvious. Now it is right in your face every day. Dubai and the Middle East is not what you want it to be. It is what it is and what it is famous for. Do your researches in other places than aviation forums and you will find your answer. If you are willing to live day by day as many people live around the world ( and that's called survival ) well come and join the club as an expat and a mercenary where all you have to think about is you, you and you. You can earn a decent amount of money as a Captain. As a F/O, personally I would have not survived in these conditions. Remember that it is just a job. Not more. If you are up for the none sense of this place come along boy! If are not don't come and cry when you will have been screwed many times like all of us here. My buckets are filling up. Both of them...

Keep Discovering

[MachAF]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Whats Emirates training program like? PC's every 6 months or is it more like AQP? Jeopardy events?

Thanks

[Northbeach]

Americans fail because.....................

Carlsonclan,

Do you have any previous international living experience? How about your immediate family, has your spouse ever lived overseas? Moving to the Middle East is not like changing domiciles and moving from Texas to California; except hotter, the population speaks a different language, wears pajamas and those “funny rag things on their head”.

Americans have many strengths and enviable qualities. Unfortunately, many Americans (U.S. Citizen not resident of North, Central or South America) are ill prepared to flourish overseas. Sometimes our mindset works against us.For example in the U.S.A. there is one system of justice for people (not claiming it is perfect-I know $ talks). If you get into a traffic accident with somebody in the U.S. the justice system does not give you an advantage because you are a citizen and the other party is not. You cannot claim (for example) that the other party is at fault because they are a foreigner. In the Middle East the justice system is completely stacked in favor of the national, by structure.

Being an American you have the expectation of “equal representation under the Law”. Well, it is not so in the Middle East. As an American you may want to argue with me about the superiority of our system-in the Middle East they don’t care about you, your system, or your expectations.We are not all exactly alike, and really wanting the same things only separated by colour and language.

As an American many of our basic assumptions about how things work prove to be invalid when dealing with the Middle East. “Look ‘em right in the eye”, “give them a firm handshake” “tell ‘em what you really think” “don’t beat around the bush, get to the point” “talk loudly and clearly and speak your mind” may all work just fine in Texas but may not always produce the results you want in the Middle East.

In the U.S.A. you probably have a Union and a contract. It’s not perfect but what is discussed and written down is pretty much law. No so in the Middle East; “my friend you have misunderstood me”. Trade unions as you recognize them are illegal.

It is not that there are a “few” different things, most things are different-really different. Many if not most of your daily assumptions are no longer valid. Such a move rocks your foundations, many "Americans" crack under the onslaught.

Living in the Middle East CAN be a great experience. In fact it can be the highlight of a lifetime. But many Americans struggle and fail because they are unable to leave “America” behind. We make the mistake of constantly comparing the culture to the “good ‘ol U.S.A.” and are unable or unwilling to make the changes necessary to adapt successfully. We “reek” our “cultural superiority” and it pisses people off BIG time.

I have been gone from the Middle East for many years now. For me it was wonderful, and I would not trade that experience for 10 years of seniority at my airline. But, it is not for everyone. Unfortunately, more Americans seem to fail and come home bitter and resentful after moving to the Middle East than those who love it.

To me the keys to success would include; adaptability, humility, commitment to succeed, realistic expectations and willingness to mentally and emotionally leave the U.S.A. behind. Doing so does not make you a bad U.S. Citizen; you are not committing treason but beginning to lay the foundation for a successful transition.

Such changes are not easy to make, and your resolve will be severely tested. Americans fail for many reasons including trying to set up “little Americas” (clubs, social groups, schools and living compounds where things are “like home” and we can all agree about the “dumb locals” who “smell bad” and “stupid this and that”). We also fail because we are too proud and not willing to learn the language or history nor are we willing listen and learn why things are the way they are.

Sometimes we Americans are too quick to open our mouths and slow to listen with the ears. We react and get frustrated and angry with the present circumstances start looking forward to the time when we “go home” and get out of this “$%* hole. It’s not for everybody! The less prepared you are, the more unrealistic your expectations the more likely you will be miserable. Will it work for you? Possibly.........................................

If nothing else it will probably teach you to love the United States in ways you cannot imagine now.

Respectfully,

Northbeach