To: Air Arabia pilots. From: UAE ACC
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Bring back Biff
The best advice I heard recently was to "name your numbers" to avoid any misconception, i.e. the prefix - heading, altitude, level, callsign etc before any number. As long as the number has a name then the word 'to' cannot be misconstrued. Also consider that 'descend 10 000 feet' without the prefix 'altitude' can either mean descend a total of 10 000 feet or descend to the altitude of 10 000 feet. In reality, someone at FL280 given the instruction to descend 10 000 feet could descend to FL180??
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Anyway this whole thread again shows how hard it is for somebody flying high in his s
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Getting Blasted from UAE ACC!!
I fly for Air Arabia and understand what the original post was meant to accomplish! You may have had G9 flights that pissed you off recently or constantly but we are all working together here. Let us try to find a way to get along! We rely on your professionalism to keep us safe in the crowded airspace in which we operate and without airplanes to control, your professional experience would be of no use. So if you are trying to make a point just say...in a polite way ..." descend and maintain FL270 means "descend now", as opposed to "when ready" ..descend and maintain FL270.
If the UAE ACC or any other for that matter has a problem with G9, then have them make a formal complaint to the company so that internal memos may be sent to remind the pilots of their responsibility to understand and comply with ATC instructions.
G9 and most other airlines are all trying to save fuel to operate more efficiently, so that not only you but your family and friends may be offered more competitive prices!
I must admit however, that our company drills into the flight department that we must fly as efficiently as we can!!! This has lead to constant requests for strait in approaches and these repeated questions about descent clearances!
So I suggest that you take up the matter with the powers that be
If the UAE ACC or any other for that matter has a problem with G9, then have them make a formal complaint to the company so that internal memos may be sent to remind the pilots of their responsibility to understand and comply with ATC instructions.
G9 and most other airlines are all trying to save fuel to operate more efficiently, so that not only you but your family and friends may be offered more competitive prices!
I must admit however, that our company drills into the flight department that we must fly as efficiently as we can!!! This has lead to constant requests for strait in approaches and these repeated questions about descent clearances!
So I suggest that you take up the matter with the powers that be
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Stating that you are established on the localizer is NOT a readback, therefore it is acceptable.
Reading back an 'on ground' airways clearance starting with your callsign, might not technically be correct but isn't it reasonable to start off with ''Etihad 141 is cleared to Mumbia via...''.
As far as Fife and Niner are concerned, they are remnants from past generations when VHF was not so good and HF was more prevalent. The relevant documents should be changed to reflect current radio capabilities.
Cleared ''Descend to'' is not a wrong ATC call because pilots and ATC are supposed to say either, FEET or FLIGHT LEVEL. Since flight levels always have their base below 20,000 feet, then a ''cleared climb to'' or a ''cleared descend to''.....should not be a problem if everyone always included.... Flight Level or Altitude (feet is the other option below transition altitude)
The OMA clearly states that either Feet or FL is to be included in all altitude readbacks.
I know that some pilots will think this whole discussion about proper RT is a bit pedantic but it is not. From my experiences, pilots who don't follow proper RT are also more inclined to not follow SOP's are also usually the least competent, just my opinion though.
Non-standard RT was the biggest reason that so many American pilots were unfairly lumped into a bad category. Agreeably, many US pilots were ****e on the radio, but fly with an American who does not take offence when this deficiency is pointed out and I guarantee they will be one of the best colleagues you could have on the flight deck.
Communication is one of the most important aspects of our job and since we don't 'see' ATC, we lose up to 50% of the clues and signals necessary to properly determine what is being said. That is why STANDARD RT is so important.
India is the best example (followed by Africa), which clearly demonstrates that when improper RT procedures are common, safety is reduced.
Reading back an 'on ground' airways clearance starting with your callsign, might not technically be correct but isn't it reasonable to start off with ''Etihad 141 is cleared to Mumbia via...''.
As far as Fife and Niner are concerned, they are remnants from past generations when VHF was not so good and HF was more prevalent. The relevant documents should be changed to reflect current radio capabilities.
Cleared ''Descend to'' is not a wrong ATC call because pilots and ATC are supposed to say either, FEET or FLIGHT LEVEL. Since flight levels always have their base below 20,000 feet, then a ''cleared climb to'' or a ''cleared descend to''.....should not be a problem if everyone always included.... Flight Level or Altitude (feet is the other option below transition altitude)
The OMA clearly states that either Feet or FL is to be included in all altitude readbacks.
I know that some pilots will think this whole discussion about proper RT is a bit pedantic but it is not. From my experiences, pilots who don't follow proper RT are also more inclined to not follow SOP's are also usually the least competent, just my opinion though.
Non-standard RT was the biggest reason that so many American pilots were unfairly lumped into a bad category. Agreeably, many US pilots were ****e on the radio, but fly with an American who does not take offence when this deficiency is pointed out and I guarantee they will be one of the best colleagues you could have on the flight deck.
Communication is one of the most important aspects of our job and since we don't 'see' ATC, we lose up to 50% of the clues and signals necessary to properly determine what is being said. That is why STANDARD RT is so important.
India is the best example (followed by Africa), which clearly demonstrates that when improper RT procedures are common, safety is reduced.
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Pick and choose???
As far as Fife and Niner are concerned, they are remnants from past generations when VHF was not so good and HF was more prevalent. The relevant documents should be changed to reflect current radio capabilities.
Dear Mensaboy,
You can't pick and choose which parts of standard RT you like and don't like.
Either you do it correctly all the time or you don't.
That is why STANDARD RT is so important.
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Spoogie. Why on earth would I want to say "descend and maintain". As opposed to what? Descend and don't maintain? What's wrong with "descend FL270"? Simple, easy to understand. Just like ICAO intended when they wrote the manual. Salvation lies in Ch 12.3. A descend clearance is no different from a climb, speed, land, take-off etc. clearance. So why the need to question it? Do you question a climb instruction?
You also bring up a disturbing point that needs addressing. And please correct me if I'm wrong.
Are you saying that you need to be reminded by your company to act like a professional aviator? That before you will act like a professional I must first file a complaint? Please say it ain't so.
Auh_to_auh. Intention wasn't to come across God-like, it was just 20 years of frustration with the almost purposeful disregard for standard r/t.
Reminder: In-shallah is NOT standard r/t.
Nearly forgot to add: Use your fu...ng callsign!!!!! Anywhere in the transmission. Beginning, middle, end. Just fu...ng use it.
You also bring up a disturbing point that needs addressing. And please correct me if I'm wrong.
to remind the pilots of their responsibility to comply with ATC instructions
Auh_to_auh. Intention wasn't to come across God-like, it was just 20 years of frustration with the almost purposeful disregard for standard r/t.
Reminder: In-shallah is NOT standard r/t.
Nearly forgot to add: Use your fu...ng callsign!!!!! Anywhere in the transmission. Beginning, middle, end. Just fu...ng use it.
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Blueskye
You are correct...I used the wrong terminology! "Descend FL270...e.g" is enough and all that is really required. But to avoid threads like this I only wanted to suggest ways to avoid a controller like yourself becoming annoyed and waisting your precious time sitting on PPrune.
We are all professional people! We don't need to be reminded by the company to act professional. Maybe there are guys who don't always act that way.
Bringing the company into this, was only to highlight the fact G9 tries several strategies to save fuel and delayed descent would be one of them. So I would think the act of questioning for delayed descent comes from training received by the company. Being at Enasa at FL270 en-route to OMSJ puts us way below an economical profile.
I am not arguing with the fact you are trying to make, I am just saying, there are "professional" ways we can communicate with each other and maybe instead of blowing up on PPrune we could have dialogue or send a document to someone who can pass this message to the entire pilot body to avoid future problems!
We are all professional people! We don't need to be reminded by the company to act professional. Maybe there are guys who don't always act that way.
Bringing the company into this, was only to highlight the fact G9 tries several strategies to save fuel and delayed descent would be one of them. So I would think the act of questioning for delayed descent comes from training received by the company. Being at Enasa at FL270 en-route to OMSJ puts us way below an economical profile.
I am not arguing with the fact you are trying to make, I am just saying, there are "professional" ways we can communicate with each other and maybe instead of blowing up on PPrune we could have dialogue or send a document to someone who can pass this message to the entire pilot body to avoid future problems!
Last edited by Spoogie; 5th Jul 2010 at 03:17.
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We all make mistakes .
In two occasions I was vectored for final to land in Dubai even though my distention was Sharjha and told air traffic controller so three times .So no bodies perfect we all make mistakes .Having said that I can understand the frustration of the controllers as some pilots have not got a clue when it comes to proper Rt or understanding instructions .
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I agree Modesh, we should not pick and choose..... but FIFE AND NINER are not a particularly bad issue. (The Germans seem to understand that nine is not NO, nowadays, haha.)
You gotta pick your battles.
Not saying ''CONTROL'' or more suitably ''Bahrain'' Control on the initial call is wrong. It is clearly written that on the first call you say the controlling agency but on subsequent calls, a pilots is only required to say.... Approach, Tower or Ground for example. And once again there is a reason for this rule. It is because it ALERTS ATC that an aircraft is calling them. If you just state, ''air arabia 123 requesting descent'', then it has the potential to cause confusion amongst other pilots in that airspace. You must always preface a call to ATC with at least ''control'' or '''tower'' or ''departure'' for example.
Saying SIR repeatedly ( there are only two nationalities who do that, the Indians and some Americans), is something that is not only wrong, it is quite annoying.
I take back what I posted earlier. It ISN'T rocket science if you have taken 20 minutes (out of your ENTIRE career) to read about proper RT. And this is where the problem lies because most pilots have never been exposed to required documents. We have managers (ATC and pilots) who have little experience and don't understand how such a simple thing as RT, is often one of the factors involved in accidents. I tried last night to find the relevant document regarding proper RT and I gave up after an hour. I know it exists at my airline but damned if I could find it.
I will say again, there often is a direct correlation between a pilot's ability and proficiency and his RT. The guys who say, ahhhh, ummmm, errrrrr during each transmission are also the guys who are more inclined to have less than ideal management skills. I do not know what causes it but in some cases it is just a lack of proper training and access to......... what.......... a 5 page document describing proper RT?
For example, THE biggest problem in India and Pakistan, is not the weather or the airport capabilities, or the facilities but rather the disproportionately massive number of improper RT calls. 6 aircraft on approach into Karachi, is like 55 aircraft on approach into JFK.
Listen to the Atlas guys reading back a clearance in DXB. It's a comedy show. ''Oh, ah, undershtand cleared... thank you shir'' Invariably, they mess up the clearance so DXB ATC has to repeat things to them. I am surprised these guys find their way to the plane sometimes. lol
Okay, I undershtand that this post is somewhat annoyin, gotta go down to two four oh, JBR sir. Checkin in', Ya'll have a good day now.
You gotta pick your battles.
Not saying ''CONTROL'' or more suitably ''Bahrain'' Control on the initial call is wrong. It is clearly written that on the first call you say the controlling agency but on subsequent calls, a pilots is only required to say.... Approach, Tower or Ground for example. And once again there is a reason for this rule. It is because it ALERTS ATC that an aircraft is calling them. If you just state, ''air arabia 123 requesting descent'', then it has the potential to cause confusion amongst other pilots in that airspace. You must always preface a call to ATC with at least ''control'' or '''tower'' or ''departure'' for example.
Saying SIR repeatedly ( there are only two nationalities who do that, the Indians and some Americans), is something that is not only wrong, it is quite annoying.
I take back what I posted earlier. It ISN'T rocket science if you have taken 20 minutes (out of your ENTIRE career) to read about proper RT. And this is where the problem lies because most pilots have never been exposed to required documents. We have managers (ATC and pilots) who have little experience and don't understand how such a simple thing as RT, is often one of the factors involved in accidents. I tried last night to find the relevant document regarding proper RT and I gave up after an hour. I know it exists at my airline but damned if I could find it.
I will say again, there often is a direct correlation between a pilot's ability and proficiency and his RT. The guys who say, ahhhh, ummmm, errrrrr during each transmission are also the guys who are more inclined to have less than ideal management skills. I do not know what causes it but in some cases it is just a lack of proper training and access to......... what.......... a 5 page document describing proper RT?
For example, THE biggest problem in India and Pakistan, is not the weather or the airport capabilities, or the facilities but rather the disproportionately massive number of improper RT calls. 6 aircraft on approach into Karachi, is like 55 aircraft on approach into JFK.
Listen to the Atlas guys reading back a clearance in DXB. It's a comedy show. ''Oh, ah, undershtand cleared... thank you shir'' Invariably, they mess up the clearance so DXB ATC has to repeat things to them. I am surprised these guys find their way to the plane sometimes. lol
Okay, I undershtand that this post is somewhat annoyin, gotta go down to two four oh, JBR sir. Checkin in', Ya'll have a good day now.
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Interestingly - after the United flight landed at BRU instead of FRA, by mistake, Brussels ATC would NOT answer if you did NOT say "Brussels Control" on first contact.. I'm not sure if that's changed recently - I can't remember when I last flew through Brussels airspace
Edited to add that if any Brits display poor R/T then that's really bad as all UK CAA qualifed pilots have to (ok - had to) do an R/T exam with some crusty old examiner sitting in a room next to you attached to a telephone playing ATC.. I've still got the old red license lurking around somewhere.. Forget ICAO 'let's play English language' nonsense.. This was the real thing
Edited to add that if any Brits display poor R/T then that's really bad as all UK CAA qualifed pilots have to (ok - had to) do an R/T exam with some crusty old examiner sitting in a room next to you attached to a telephone playing ATC.. I've still got the old red license lurking around somewhere.. Forget ICAO 'let's play English language' nonsense.. This was the real thing
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An older version. Not much has changed though. Scroll down to Part X.
http://lewczuk.com.pl/materialy/prawo/4444.pdf
http://lewczuk.com.pl/materialy/prawo/4444.pdf
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www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
The R/T bible. Just a bit longer than the 5 pages referred to above. Enjoy
HUB
The R/T bible. Just a bit longer than the 5 pages referred to above. Enjoy
HUB
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I don't recall one instance when cleared descent to 9000' was confused with 5000' or vice versa. I think that FIFE and NINER are remnants of the past but I'm willing to accept that Jimal, you have witnessed it.
I'm a bit surprised that you Jimal, who appears to be a stickler for the rules, don't comprehend why saying things in the correct order and always starting off with.....''Bahrain control'' or for subsequent calls, ''control'' is so important.
The human brain comprehends things in a certain way. First off, ATC and pilots need to be clued-into a call and that happens by the first words used in a radio transmission. ''Bahrain control, Emirates123, FL390'' It is simple, concise and not prone to error. Or 'bahrain, emirates123 passing FL245 descending FL190'' Some pilot's don't even realize that ATC checks our altitude call and if not within certain parameters, they are supposed to question it.
It is critical for pilots to address the proper agency either by name or just ''control'' as the FIRST thing we say..........partly because it immediately advises all other aircraft on that frequency that the call is NOT FOR THEM! And since many aircraft flying around this airspace seem to have similar call signs, EK, EY,QR 501 or something close, so if we don't start off with properly addressing the controlling agency, many other pilots will starting thinking........ was that call for us to descend to FL 250? Or did AA501 just say, ''AA 501 descending FL 250''?
A pilot is either lazy or too stupid to know who they are talking to, if they don't start off each RT in the proper manner. First call to ATC for example, ''dubai ground, emirates 123...'' (subsequent calls can be either 'Dubai ground' or 'ground') It is the easiest method aside from being the safest but for some reason many pilots don't bother. I have to question, why?
I think it boils down to past experiences and improper training because if some pilots are consciously choosing to say things like...... Emiratie123 or This is the Emirates123, checkin in with you at two four oh............. then they shouldn't be flying planes.
Once again, I don't really care what the rules are as long as they are effective and even more importantly, they must be STANDARD.
I'm a bit surprised that you Jimal, who appears to be a stickler for the rules, don't comprehend why saying things in the correct order and always starting off with.....''Bahrain control'' or for subsequent calls, ''control'' is so important.
The human brain comprehends things in a certain way. First off, ATC and pilots need to be clued-into a call and that happens by the first words used in a radio transmission. ''Bahrain control, Emirates123, FL390'' It is simple, concise and not prone to error. Or 'bahrain, emirates123 passing FL245 descending FL190'' Some pilot's don't even realize that ATC checks our altitude call and if not within certain parameters, they are supposed to question it.
It is critical for pilots to address the proper agency either by name or just ''control'' as the FIRST thing we say..........partly because it immediately advises all other aircraft on that frequency that the call is NOT FOR THEM! And since many aircraft flying around this airspace seem to have similar call signs, EK, EY,QR 501 or something close, so if we don't start off with properly addressing the controlling agency, many other pilots will starting thinking........ was that call for us to descend to FL 250? Or did AA501 just say, ''AA 501 descending FL 250''?
A pilot is either lazy or too stupid to know who they are talking to, if they don't start off each RT in the proper manner. First call to ATC for example, ''dubai ground, emirates 123...'' (subsequent calls can be either 'Dubai ground' or 'ground') It is the easiest method aside from being the safest but for some reason many pilots don't bother. I have to question, why?
I think it boils down to past experiences and improper training because if some pilots are consciously choosing to say things like...... Emiratie123 or This is the Emirates123, checkin in with you at two four oh............. then they shouldn't be flying planes.
Once again, I don't really care what the rules are as long as they are effective and even more importantly, they must be STANDARD.
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MammaNannaSystem...zere vud be a lot less vidows on zis planet if ze R/T vud be like in ze Krauts land!
I zing ze tscherman Akzzent helps a lot...even ze dog trainers use it
I zing ze tscherman Akzzent helps a lot...even ze dog trainers use it
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The mere fact that ManadaSystem has made a feeble attempt to disparage my posts, has made me realize that most sane people probably agree with me.
Mana, you might be the least intelligent human-being on Pprune. Congratulations!
You have repeatedly made posts in support of buffoons while criticizing posters who state the obvious. Honestly............... what is your background and upbringing that causes you to be so ludicrous? I am fascinated by you, please enlighten us!
Most Pprunners have concluded that Mana is a Management Clown but I am starting to think he is pilot without conscience or ability. God, hopefully he is in management but you never know. He clearly would fit into the category of the 1% of pilots who are morons but he more readily fits into the category of 50% of management buffoons.
MANA, give us your history of flying! It is a simple request and no worries if you don't give names or airlines, but at least let us know if you fit into the classifications of Capt America. For once in your life MANA, be honest.
Mana, you might be the least intelligent human-being on Pprune. Congratulations!
You have repeatedly made posts in support of buffoons while criticizing posters who state the obvious. Honestly............... what is your background and upbringing that causes you to be so ludicrous? I am fascinated by you, please enlighten us!
Most Pprunners have concluded that Mana is a Management Clown but I am starting to think he is pilot without conscience or ability. God, hopefully he is in management but you never know. He clearly would fit into the category of the 1% of pilots who are morons but he more readily fits into the category of 50% of management buffoons.
MANA, give us your history of flying! It is a simple request and no worries if you don't give names or airlines, but at least let us know if you fit into the classifications of Capt America. For once in your life MANA, be honest.
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Oh I can't let it slide. The person posting under the name of Mana.... is not who he pretends to be.
I don't normally call human beings complete morons but to your face Mana, I will tell you, YOU ARE A COMPLETE MORON. I have reviewed your posts and there is no doubt that my assessment of you is correct.
YOU, should be nominated for the stupidest person on Pprune.
I disagree with some of my colleagues and clearly they disagree with me too but you are a piece of work. Are you being paid to counter logical arguments or are you just an idiot? I really need to know. If this planet has people who actually agree with your past posts (other than the sycophant, kiss-asses who need to personify such traits to keep their job) then we are all in serious trouble. Even if a very small minority of people have thought processes like YOU, then this planet is in trouble.
At least Capt America was exposed for who he truly was. I doubt it had an affect on him but at least we knew what we were up against. With you, it is still a mystery even though whatever your story is, there is no excuse for behaving in such a manner.
I implore all Ppruners to read Mana's posts because they adequately reflect the mindset, abilities and mindset of some of our managers.
I don't normally call human beings complete morons but to your face Mana, I will tell you, YOU ARE A COMPLETE MORON. I have reviewed your posts and there is no doubt that my assessment of you is correct.
YOU, should be nominated for the stupidest person on Pprune.
I disagree with some of my colleagues and clearly they disagree with me too but you are a piece of work. Are you being paid to counter logical arguments or are you just an idiot? I really need to know. If this planet has people who actually agree with your past posts (other than the sycophant, kiss-asses who need to personify such traits to keep their job) then we are all in serious trouble. Even if a very small minority of people have thought processes like YOU, then this planet is in trouble.
At least Capt America was exposed for who he truly was. I doubt it had an affect on him but at least we knew what we were up against. With you, it is still a mystery even though whatever your story is, there is no excuse for behaving in such a manner.
I implore all Ppruners to read Mana's posts because they adequately reflect the mindset, abilities and mindset of some of our managers.