FlyingTinCans

Ok for your benefit,

I couldn't give a rats a**e if the rostering department used the cleaners of 'Asian origin' as an example to the argument "if they only have one day off in a month then why should pilots be any different".

We both agree that it's no comparison, so why are you then using the SAME argument that you agree is irrelevant.

We should be arguing on the basis of the pilot rosters and benefits at GF, QR, EY & EK. The latest intake of pilots was reportedly told the FZ pilot stream is drying up, they will look to other airlines to see their benefits to try and lure pilots into FZ, it's called 'benchmarking'. The T&C's of the office workers is irrelevant.

Vortac1

"We should be arguing on the basis of the pilot rosters and benefits at GF, QR, EY & EK. The latest intake of pilots was reportedly told the FZ pilot stream is drying up, they will look to other airlines to see their benefits to try and lure pilots into FZ, it's called 'benchmarking'. The T&C's of the office workers is irrelevant."

Pilot supply is drying up because they cant find enough qualified applicants or because the training department cant get them out to the line fast enough?

High Energy

Boeing or Airbus...

I don't have a subscription to this website so if anyone does, I'd love to read the rest of the article. And yes, I know it's not difficult to predict what it says, but still...

Old King Coal

Fwiw, and as a case in point. Assuming I'm on-time this evening, I'm planned to finish duty at 23:25. I get tomorrow as a day off. Then report for duty again at 16:55 on Saturday (straight into night flights). So, for those thinking of joining, you can go figure the 'lifestyle' ?!

what-to-do

Just so we're clear, I'm not using any argument. I simply understand the point that is being made, which you don't appear to.

I don't believe anyone is actually calling for a direct roster comparison between two completely different jobs. To me that seems quite apparent.

There is however, a very real problem with rostering here at FZ. Part of that problem is how the rosters are put together, which is further compounded by the attitude of the people that put the rosters together.

It is when individuals from this same group openly make comparisons with respect to days off, people are quite rightly annoyed. The point therefore, is that there should be no comparison in this respect at all, as we do completely different jobs. The most fundamental aspect of which, is that we work shifts and need time to recuperate. Having one or two days off after 3 nights is extremely fatiguing.

Did I say fatigue? Yes fatigue, an aspect of of our life here at FZ that is overlooked by scheduling and management at every level. So I'm wondering if the guys that work 9-5 understand what it's like to land an aircraft at 7am having been awake for 20+ hours or having managed only 8-9 hours sleep in three days?

This is the point being made and not one of direct comparisons.

High Energy

Whilst we're on the subject of fatigue, German broadcaster ZDF aired a 30 min documentary on 'Pilot Fatigue'. Haven't seen it yet, German only.

Piloten am Limit
Wenn die Müdigkeit mitfliegt

Piloten am Limit - ZDF.de

pole shift

FZ is becoming a company that office staff see pilots as their worst enemy. Especially HR and rostering. Don't dare ask for any favours or help, they will give you the finger, in a nice way.
Pilots are worked to the maximum of their limits. 3 night flights single day OFF, 4 mornings followed by 2 OFF and then back to night flights, typically report at 23:00 - 02:00 and get back around 09:00 in the morning. Excuses plenty: not enough pilots, commercial coming up with new flights etc etc.
Trying to commute nowdays becomes impossible, even for 3 days. The funny thing is that aims can give you a Ryanair or Easyjet type of roster, but the experts running the rostering department come up with excuses on every time someone brings up an issue. Every pilot I meet in the briefing room talks only about the hectic roster, that has a toll on our life and health.
And people leave, and this number will increase as more people now complete the bonding period. Can the company afford to loose experienced on its operation pilots? If not then they better do something about it.

Man the lifeboat

Look in the crew room and you will hear more than stories of terrible rosters! EVERY pilot I talk to (other than ex turbo prop guys who need jet time) are ACTIVELY looking for new jobs! FZ is really about to hit a brick wall....but this one is coming very quietly!

had-enough

Don't tell FlyingTinCans! Apparently we should be arguing on the basis of pilot rosters at GF, QR, EY & EK.

To coin a phrase "I couldn't give a rats a*rse" about the rosters in other other airlines..... just the ones where I work would be nice!

Four years at FZ and the rosters are declining, as they have been for a long long time. Even the pilots who I once thought would be here for some time to come are now actively looking for jobs elsewhere.

Jobs in the US, Europe and even UK are now starting to open up.

Pilot sickness at FZ is astonishingly high......wonder why?

dubaigong

Why ?

I think a get a good idea.... It's the only way to get enough days off to be able to attend any interview for a new job

Old King Coal

Wrt looking for a new job?.... Too right I am, and actively so; I just can't wait to get out !

plasticmerc

I give up, Good luck to all.

Voodoo 3

Randy, I'll take your three single days and raise you to four! Competent rostering this ain't!

MrCarlosDanger

Lads have you heard of "fatigue"...sometimes we are our own worst enemy. The schedule is "legal" mind you, but so is "fatigue".

seven3heaven

Unfortunately guys we will always be treated like second class citizens by the highly qualified and competent HR and rostering professionals. If they sit behind a desk they seem to think that they have made it in life and can dictate to the "Prima Donna" flight crew. Jealousy is a terrible thing !!

Time to seek alternatives......

AB115

I've applied for a DEC position, but now having second thoughts about attendending to the screening process. Is the roster that bad? How many days off in a bidding period? How many flying hours in a month? Too much overnights and layovers? Will I stay at home with my family as they promessed me?

Aerofoil

From someone who spent just over 2 years at FZ i can state that everything you have heard on this thread about life there is correct. Within 6 months of joining and flying the rosters i lost 24 lbs in weight and from someone who only weighed just over 150lbs in the first place this is not healthy. I had enough of the ill treatment and decided that it was worth more to me, my family and my health to pay my bond off (i joined with a rating and 2500 hours on type!) and leave. Not only was that a better option than staying but also i had no job to go to after FZ so was effectively putting myself out of work!

Fortunately i managed to get another job in the meantime with a company who respect and promote safe rosters and have enough experience to treat all of their staff well and with a great amount of respect. If one was to make a comparison it would be to show that Flydubai (the management) are the 'know it all' teenager joining an environment of airlines that have already made the mistakes and learnt from them and Flydubai bigwigs are still growing up and learning how things work the hard way at the detriment to the crews who are/were their biggest asset! But what do we know, this is/was our first ever airline job and we know no better....surely?!?!

I wish all the best to my ex-colleagues and as things improve back in the states, uk, europe and elsewhere i look forward to seeing that you are out of that nightmare and back with proper airlines again.

MrCarlosDanger

Yes the roster is that bad! Like any statistic the numbers can be deceiving with respect to what you ask...hours flown and days off per month. Both vary and sometimes widely. You can fly anywhere from 65 to 90+ hours and have 9 to 11 days off per month...anecdotal by the way. On the surface that doesn't seem too bad. But, you must look at the contextual elements associated with the numbers...this is where it hurts. Days off per month...there is a mindset in this company that pilot rosters should serve as a "leash for a dog" so to speak. Since day one, it appears management/scheduling engaged in limiting the freedom and personal time you would expect from a reputable company by manipulating the flying rosters. For example, with 25-30 pilots and 1 and 2 airplanes, if you were not flying you were on stand-by (and the stand-by time are utterly ridiculous by the way). Come on, pilots sitting on the ground for months building an operation chomping at the bits to fly new airplanes. Who is going to call in sick...why the need to roster everyone for stand-by. Mind you, most were never called to fill in, but you have to ask yourself why would they do it...see previous discussions regarding the office hours worked vs pilot hours scheduled of the pencil pushers vs. operators. Even now the casual observer can see manual input to the schedule...if perhaps you have a little too much time off...you will find that "extra day off" replaced with a stand-by, reserve day or some other crap these guys have at their disposal. Let's discuss the critical part...your real days off and recovery time. Many times you will find yourself working until 2300 hours before your day off strings. In turn, you might show early in the morning after your day off string. Technically you have two days off or even one sometimes (three days off in a row is fleeting)...but do you really. You ask if you are home with your family. Well, technically you are but a lot of that time is in the next room tossing and turning trying to sleep at very odd hours. This is a 24/7 airline and as a result your body clock is so messed up, quality time with your family is limited...worse than long haul in my opinion...yep been there and done that too. On the other hand, the company has purchased PBS in an "attempt" to fix some of the ills. There are some technical issues with the application hence the need for test runs. Funny we have not heard about nor seen the results of the testing. I have a theory that we haven't seen the results because the results are not good. In my opinion, the crux of the problem is the airline is simply undermanned and we are in the middle of a viscous cycle. The hiring department is in full swing while we are loosing people as a result of what you have read in previous posts.

Now the hours. Again, on the surface 65-90 hours...you can do standing on your head. But these are difficult hours and are associated with extreme time changes. It is nothing to do 2/3 deep all nighters followed by early early shows after "2" or even "1" days off. The icing on the cake...all nighters to Russia and Kiev during the winter makes Kabul look like a "desired city". As a side bar, the commercial department is chomping at the bits to go to Mogadishu. Me personally, that is where I draw the line and I will not go there. Hell, we would probably be going to Syria if the local fed had not put a stopper on it. In a past life 80-95 hours a month was very doable...not the case here.

With all of that said...there are some good things about the place...unfortunately very few. The most important is guys and gals you fly with both in the front and back. The money used to be attractive...but that is somewhat in decline due to drastic increases in rents and day to day living.

Hope that helps my friend. For me, I met my goal. This gig was never meant to be long term. I find it a hard pill to swallow for anyone to make this a long term career move. But there are some that will stay here...in fact there are some great Brazilian guys that will probably stay...you need to get their inputs as well.

LNAV737

You will stay at home there are no to many layovers just a few 3 or 4 i think...i don't know who told you that .....the roster is a bit crazy ...with time changes ..from night to morning flights and sometimes with 12 h rest ...and the houseing allowance is really tight....they must increase it ....deposits for DEWA,apartment,ejari,internet ...bla...bla blaa

long-gonner

At first I didn't see any difference with the practice PBS award, but after looking away for a few hours and letting my initial anger pass it does look better than what I've been getting the last 9 months. There is only one block of four days that rolls me from a night flight, to a layover, then to a long day flight. It seems more productive overall, but the question is why did the system leave so many X days and what will those be turned into? Days off, probably NOT

Anything is better than what we have now. At least we can try and have some say in what we get rather than NO say at all!

And I just have to say it, no I'm not happy with PBS results this round. However, for anyone to suggest that staying with the current system of letting planning build our schedules with no oversight or seniority involved needs to reevaluate their thought process.....or even take some much needed leave