SKYWRITER1

Its not a p!ssing contest about who earns the most! Pilots at flydubai know there are bigger salaries out there. There is more to life for some people than hard cash. The numbers given above are to help people who want may want to join, nothing more. And whilst they do include a housing/car allowance, you get to keep what you dont spend, which for most people is a reasonable chunk at the moment due to the much lower house prices.

That is all.

SW

Old King Coal

dubaigong - where I come from ones 'take-home pay' is what one gets to live on, after taxation deductions (which are not applicable in the UAE) and prior to deductions for ones personal living expenses (e.g. mortgage / rent, transport, bills, etc)... and that's why I used this term and have shown the figures accordingly (above).

Imho, it does not matter what ones 'salary' is. What matters is how much you end up with in the bank every month - for which I have candidly highlighted my own figures.

Having received ones monthly salary AND ALLOWANCES, how one then choose to dispose of it is entirely up to oneself (and that's the deal we have with flydubai).

E.g. I could choose to live in a big apartment on The Palm Jumeirah (I did that for 1 year; it cost me a fortune! ) or I could move to a more modest location and pocket the difference (nice!).

The same is also true for ones method of transport. E.g. one could choose to forego buying a car and instead get taxis everywhere (which are certainly plentiful in Dubai) or one could get a car loan (also easily obtained) or one could simply buy a car outright. I own my own car (which was showroom new as of 2 years ago) and so now the 4,000 Dhs per month that flydubai provide for my 'transport allowance' is put towards its running costs (which are minimal) and / or whatever else I choose to spend it upon.

So yes, the above figures do include my Housing & Transport allowances but, after paying out for each of these + various household bills, I'm usually having to scrape by on just 46,000 Dhs ($12,500 USD) per month... uhm, I just don't know how I manage ?!

And, fwiw, prior to moving to flydubai I was offered DEC with a number of other Middle East wide-body operators, but I turned them down as I've played the long-haul (away-from-home-all-the-time) game before, and don't care for it.

Dare one ask if Emirates pilots got the bonus you mentioned when EK had been operating for just 2 years ?! (nb. flydubai operated it's 1st commercial flight 2 years ago today). If so, good for them, and therein we'll have to work upon getting the same for us too at flydubai !!

ATB,

OKC

Ps. Since making that post above, I've been inundated with PM's for additional information about joining flydubai and / or living in dubai. i will write something to (hopefully) address all those requests within 24 hours.

mave292

Ok guys, now show the figure for a pilot on B scale and they are nowhere near OKC figures so lets get a grip to reality again,also those crew members that joined AFTER Sept 2010 did not receive the payrise. B scale F/O working 65 hours a month EXCLUDING housing allowance :

basic 17000 (without payrise)
trans 1700
sector 6500

TOTAL 25200


Just a tad different from OKC "A" scale figures

Old King Coal

As I mentioned above (though somewhat quicker than I expected), I'll now endeavour to answer the various points that have been asked of me in copious numbers of PM's and try and do so as dispassionately as I can.

Recruitment for flydubai;

• Please do not ask / PM me for inside-knowledge and / or details of who and / or what is involved in the assessment process; if only because I do not know the answers to those questions. Nb. The folks who joined flydubai in the early days went through the exact same process that Emirates pilots go through, whereas, today, the flydubai recruitment process is outsourced to CTC in the UK.
• It is fairly common knowledge that flydubai intends to try and recruit another 600 pilots within the next 4 years and, as is typical in the Middle East, those pilots are required to be 'experienced' (if only because the UAE GCAA won't validate your overseas ATPL if you're not 'experienced' enough… at least that's my understanding of it?! ). This figure will include a mixture of DEC's & F/O's, and it assumes that nobody here already decides to leave?! Nb. My own personal view is that all the airlines are fishing in the same bucket for experienced pilots and that flydubai (and other airlines) are going to find it harder and harder to recruit 'experienced' pilots.
• Also, and just to muddy the flydubai waters just a tadge, there's talk (it changes weekly) of flydubai getting Cadets. i.e. UAE cadets from across the road at Emirates (as the predominate type of flying that Emirates do, does not facilitate the training / handling-skills that are, apparently, more readily available within a 'low-cost' / short-haul environment).
• I should perhaps add that the failure rate for pilot applicants is seemingly rather high (just as it is for Emirates too) with approx 60% to 75% failing the process.
• One could of course apply and then see what happens, i.e. go through the selection process and if they then make you an offer one can then think about it?!

flydubai Up-Sides:

• It is generally good fun.
• The vast majority of crews are top notch and nice folk to go to work with.
• The oldest aircraft in the fleet is not yet 2 years old and all are the 'short-field' performance variety (which helps on a -800), plus an HGS/HUD for the Captain.
• The routes are varied (Timetable - where we fly - flydubai ) and the list is growing all the time.
• The salary is paid promptly every month and / or paid early should pay day (normally 26th of each month) fall within a weekend and / or Public Holiday.
• We have access to cheap flights on flydubai and also with Emirates Airlines (any mixture of 'firm-seat' and / or 'standby' tickets are available... though the process of getting tickets for discounted travel on EK can be a bit tiresome).
• If you're a F/O, depending your upon total hours / experience on type, etc, you could conceivably be in the LHS once you've completed 1 year (following your initial line check) in the RHS.
• Entitled to 6 weeks of paid holiday per year, and for which flydubai will provide a roundtrip, economy ticket, to your nominated home destination for yourself and family (up to a max of 3 children, whom must be under 18 years) on a once per year basis, OR you can take the cash equivalent (flights are with Emirates and are ticketed / priced to an Emirates gateway destination).
• Housing allowance is typically paid as part of your monthly salary. That said, rents in the UAE are normally paid via a number of pre-dated cheques in advance, e.g twice yearly, or thrice yearly, or quarterly (i.e. it's negotiable with the landlord). If you haven't got the funds to pay that kind of money up-front, then flydubai will advance you up to 1/2 of your annualised housing allowance for that purpose, subject to them seeing / confirming your accommodation contract (and do remember that this can put you in debt to the company - see my comments below about being in debt in the UAE).
• The education allowance seems to cover most of what's available in Dubai.. with the possible exceptions of Repton (= expensive) and / or JESS @ Arabian Ranches (which requires a hefty 'Debenture' payment 'per child' which flydubai will not cover; unlike Emirates who do cover it for their pilots who want their kids to go to that school). The education allowance will cover up to 3 children under the age of 19 years who are in education (it's paid as a reimbursement and not as an advance). The exact figures are listed on flydubai's website: Children's educational support and are 'per child'. (and do remember that this can put you in debt to the company - see my comments below about being in debt in the UAE).
• All the flights are (presently) out & back in the same day / night (though some might see that as a bad thing?!)

flydubai Down-Sides (some of these are not necessarily 'negatives', but they might just be different to what some are used to):

• There's a $24,000 USD bond over 3 years even if you are type-rated on a B737NG; and it's $36,000 USD over 3 years if you are not type-rated (this, of course, puts you in debt to the company - see my comments below about being in debt in the UAE)
• The safety culture is 'interesting'.
• You can forget all about help / support from BALPA or IFALPA and the like, as 'Unions' are illegal in the UAE.
• Our rostering has 'had its moments', but it IS getting better!
• We do a reasonable number of night flights per month.
• It's not a 'commuting' roster.
• We do not do any night-stops (at least not just yet).
• The 'projected earnings' figure posted in the company website (based on 80 block hours per month) has consistently been underachieved, and this has had a resultant effect upon take-home pay (for some at least).
• You're also expected to contribute to the costs of any medical treatment and / or prescriptions. Pre-existing medical conditions (for either yourself or your family members) will not be covered. Any treatments costing more than 500 Dhs ($136 USD) have to be pre-authorised by the Health Insurance Company. Even if pre-authorised, it is not guaranteed that you will be paid back, either in part or in full. Vaccinations for Children are not covered. Pre-natal packages, offered by various hospitals, are not covered. No direct billing between Dentists and the health insurance company means that dental fees must be paid upfront and then reclaimed from the Insurance company (see my previous comments wrt authorisations and / or getting paid back). Renewal of pilot medicals has been costed using the cheapest Clinic possible (maximum 800 Dhs) whereas a Class 1 Medical renewal with a proper AME is likely to be more the 3x that price (for which you have to fund the difference in price yourself). The Worldwide Health Insurance cover does not include treatment in North America.
• Very poor protection if you get sick and / or are unable to work for any reason; Basically you're entitled to 2 weeks full pay, then 2 weeks 1/2 pay, then nothing! That said, the company reserves the right to invite you to work in the office, i.e. whilst you convalesce, which would allow you to still get paid (albeit with no block-hour pay, obviously). To help put this into perspective: Scenario 1: go skiing at the Mall of the Emirates indoor ski-slope and break your leg (you'll hopefully be invited to work in the office whilst your leg mends?!) ... OR, scenario 2: driving down the Sheik Zayed Road and some numpty crashes into you, and you're hospitalised / in a comma / unwell for more than a month (and unable, or not invited, to work in the office)... uhm, we're not sure what happens then?!
• The loss of license insurance is only 2 years worth of ones 'basic' salary.
• F/O to Captain upgrade process is rigorous! (Therein, if you're already a Captain, then apply as a Captain; or, if you're about to become a Captain, might I suggest staying where you are to log some Command hours and then apply as a Captain at a later date?!).
• We now have a multiplex of salary scales, and we're not sure where this is headed. Note well that the figures for take-home pay that I've provided (above) are for a Captain on the 'A' scale and therein the figures for new recruits need to be adjusted in-line with the revised figures now listed upon flydubai's website - you can do the math !
• The rise in salary that some of us (i.e. not everybody) received last month was the first increase in 2 years, and it was only applied to the 'basic' salary. There's nothing in place that guarantees any annual increment for any of the T&C's.
• There is no bonus scheme in place (unlike Emirates).
• There is no Provident Fund (unlike Emirates) and / or Pension fund and / or no company contributions available to be paid into your private pension fund. People who resign are only entitled to the statutory UAE End-of-Service gratuity payment, i.e. 21 days basic salary for each year of service or part thereof, once you have completed at least 1 full year.
• For those used to getting a 'Duty Pay' allowance (i.e. paid from their scheduled duty report time through until the time of finishing their duty) be aware that in flydubai this element of pilot pay is based only upon Block Hours (i.e. OffBlocks to OnBlocks ).
• Education allowance payment is now only valid for schools within the UAE (whereas early joiners into flydubai have it in their contract that this could be used to pay overseas education fees; which is the same deal that Emirates have?!)
• We are regularly reminded that "flydubai is not Emirates".
• The moving allowance is paltry and getting 'established' in Dubai is both regularly frustrating & expensive!

Nb. Many parts of the following advice could be relevant to anybody looking to move / live / work in the UAE, be that coming to flydubai, or Emirates, or whomever:

Up-sides of living in Dubai:

• Life out here is comfortable, and I'm confident that most of my colleagues would probably say the same.
• The housing allowance - even on the 'B' scale - will (should?) presently allow you to rent somewhere quite decent to live in. Some even top-up their housing allowance from their salary and are living in very smart accommodation, wherein it's their choice where they live and what they're prepared to spend upon it.
• Food costs about the same as in the UK / EU (some things more, some things less) and the supermarkets here make many in the UK / EU look like a corner shops, i.e. in terms of size & choice of goods.
• Some of the supermarkets have a pork / bacon section (though it is usually expensive).
• You can most certainly get booze (there are liquor stores... which are open even throughout Ramadan... and did someone say "Barracuda"?!) and there are lots of bars / restaurants / clubs where one can imbibe with impunity. You do however need to obtain an Alcoholic Drinks License from the Dubai Police (some simple formalities).
• Petrol is cheap (certainly wrt UK / EU / USA prices) though it is still not as cheap as in other countries in the Gulf (e.g. in Saudi petrol is seemingly cheaper than some bottled water).
• Cars are cheap (relatively).
• There is no tax to pay on your earnings (unless you are a citizen of the USA) and you will be considered / assessed as ex-pat (if your from the UK).
• Shopping is excellent, with most of the big name stores & brands having a very visible presence.
• Wives seem to like it here (could it be the shopping and affordable maids?!)
• For those who like the type of 'wife' that can rented by the hour, e.g. the "Me love you long time!" and / or the "You want happy ending?" type of companionship, the bars & hotels are full of them from every nationality (though, technically, that kind of thing is illegal; this place is full of contradictions) !
• High speed Internet (fibre-optic even) is readily available.

An excellent site for factual data on property rental prices / car prices / and just stuff in general is here: Dubizzle.com

Down-sides of living in Dubai:

• Scorchingly hot (& humid) for 4 months of the year.... regular temps of high 40C's during day and often not less than 40C at night (in the summer months you'll be living an almost entirely air-conditioned existence; but the rest of the year the weather is fabulous... "Oh look, a cloud!" ).
• Do not upset the 'locals'. Show a lack of 'respect', e.g. flicking the finger when a local has carved YOU up in his / her 4x4 monster truck, or get 'aggressive', and you can be arrested, and are then likely to spend time (days) in a Police cell, potentially followed by time (weeks / months) in a Prison cell, following which you will be deported!
• Do try to make sure you live within your means. Being in debt (or, more to the point, failing to pay your debts) is classed as a Criminal Offence for which the aforementioned punishment (i.e. incarceration) also applies (though quite how ones pays-off ones debt when one is incarcerated is not well explained and therein is something that you'd do well to avoid). In the event that you lose your job and / or are dismissed or some such, it's highly likely that you will need to pay-off any outstanding debts, before you'll be allowed to exit the UAE.
• The internet is 'filtered' (albeit but readily circumvented via some simple, though illegal here, VPN software).
• If you're a chap with a girlfriend and you want her to come here and live with you (and / or vice versa), then you will have to get married, as 'Living-in-sin' is a criminal offence in the UAE and it comes with serious consequences, if you get caught (aside from which, visas for the non-resident cohabitee will become 'awkward' ).
• Be foolish enough to get your unmarried girlfriend pregnant, and she then goes to a local clinic to get it confirmed, and guess what?... you've committed and imprisonable criminal offence; certainly so for her!
• Driving standards will be anything from infuriating to down right dangerous, lethal even!
• Getting your children into the school of your choice is not 'a given'. The schools here operate on a 'selective' basis, as such competition for the more popular schools can be fierce, with many places regularly oversubscribed.
• Getting established here can take a of lot paperwork, hassle, and expense!

So there you have it… I hope this answers everybody's PM'd questions to me?

18L

Dear Old King Coal

Thank you very much for taking the time to give all that information on Dubai and Flydubai.

Very informative and helpful for people (like me) who are seriously considering joining FZ and heading that way.

Appreciate it

pinkflaps

Hi All,

Can anyone give me an indication as to how long CTC take to screen initial applications?

Thanks in advance!

111boy

Thanks Old King Coal, I'm coming out to Dubai for an interview soon and It is really good to have the opinions you posted. Very useful

CTC were very efficient with me, I was processed in about 2 weeks, IE from applying to getting a date in Dubai, maybe they are a little busier now, seems to me interest has picked up perhaps?

Good luck everyone

Jeffdh17

I was processed for an interview in two days. Applied on Sunday, had an invitation for interview with CTC on Tuesday. Very quick.

pinkflaps

I have heard that you got to pay for the interview?! And you got to pay to GO to the interview?? Well, the person like me who is in downunder to go to UK is not really cheap. I also have an interview with Qatar... do you guys suggest me to ditch flydubai?? Or do you think flydubai is much better than Qatar???? Mmmmm.... I am really wondering what to do....

dubaigong

@pinkflaps,

Maybe you are looking for more guidance BUT I have answered your question already on the Qatar thread...
As I told you there , Flydubai is a low cost with only B737 and Qatar is a state airline with medium and long haul fleet.

You can not compare the two , it's two totally different business model and kind of operation and the career opportunities are also very different.

Read the comments on both airlines , compare the conditions , and choose what kind of life style and career you want and then you will have our answer.

Nobody can make the decision for you , it's your life and you only have one so make the right choice...

Good luck

pinkflaps

Thanks dubaigong for your advice.

I will go through threads and think again!

Immigrant

2Old King Coal

How about flights, that more then 4 hrs?

Istanbul
Yekaterinburg
Samara

and so on......



Thanks.

spanishfly69

Immigrant,

"How about flights, that more then 4 hrs?

Istanbul
Yekaterinburg
Samara"

They are all turn around. (out and back) (1 duty period).

Old King Coal

Immigrant wrote "How about flights, that more then 4 hrs?"

Just adding to what spanishfly69 has said... we do a reasonable number of flights where each sector is more than 4 hours long and which are out & back within the same duty period / duty day (though quite what the 4 hours you mention has got to do with anything, I don't know?!).

Based upon the least restrictive local time of duty start, doing 2 sectors, for a 2 pilot operation (wherein the nature of flydubai's operation means that we're always acclimatised, for the purposes of FTL's) flydubai's 'Flight Time Limitations' (FTL) scheme allows for a maximum 'Flight Duty Period' (FDP) of 13:15.

Given that the report time (1 hour) and turn-around time (45 minutes) are pretty much fixed and are included within the FDP, in order for a 2 sector day to to fit within the bounds of the maximum FDP, you're looking at a maximum BlocksOff to BlocksOn time, per sector (assuming still air), of 5:45 ... and the B737-800 is more than capable of flying that kind of sector length, with a full load (189 pax), albeit assuming that it's not PLTOM limited.

E.g. You can report for work at 9 AM, fly 2 sectors, and so long as you set the brakes 'On' by 10:15 PM, it's all legit; and should anything go wrong, on the day, the Commander always has the option to extend the FDP via use of 'Discretion' (subject to the usual caveats).

Putting this all into perspective, in 2 years I've had to fill-in just 2 discretion reports (and each of those was only for just for a couple of minutes worth of Discretion).

Does that help to answer your question?

Immigrant

Of course nothing with Duty...my question was about Flight/Block time limit.
So you guys Don't have 8 hrs Flight/Block time limit for 2 crew members as most of the World????

and you really do 11:30 Flight/Block for the one duty??


2Old King Coal
was I asking this...

We fly almost 8 (:7:30/7:40) and who cares...

Old King Coal

Immigrant you asked the following:
A) No. The UAE's FTL scheme is based upon the one defined originally by the UK CAA in CAP371. <-- click link
A) Yes... and we can also use Commanders 'Discretion' to extend a FDP by 2, or even 3, hours (depending upon the circumstances).
A) No you didn't; but other people might be wondering if, whilst the FTL scheme allows for long FDP's, is the aircraft actually capable of matching up to it?... which it is!


Ps. Hence the edit (though strongly wishing to avoid thread creep! ): Immigrant, what I suspect you are working with right now (in Panama = FAA Reg's? ) is described on page 4 of FAA NPRM 'Flightcrew Member Duty and Rest Requirements' but wherein the direction the FAA are looking to take it is described on page 143 (basically towards something more akin to CAP371). The FAA are to issue a final ruling on this by August 1, 2011. See also: FAA Fact Sheet / Pilot Fatigue. Imho, I think you'll find the FAA's NPRM FTL Scheme more kindly in terms of increased rest & fatigue reduction. That said, European & UAE ops, even today, get more rest and do less flight hours than have been proposed in the FAA's NPRM FTL Scheme!

Immigrant

Old King Coal, Thanks for the answer ,

In this case I just sincerely wish you have a Very Good Health Insurance around the corner of your retirement....

P.s.

For the now , place where i am working and where i came from .. you are not aloud to exceed 8 hrs block for any 24 hrs of period..
and not only fatigue is the reason.....your health as well.

Old King Coal....I really appreciate your attention

FZckntkawrap

Ok, I will bite.....what does 8 in 24 protect you from health wise???

Jeffdh17

It protects you from having Pilot Butt. hahahahahaha......always happy to provide comic relief.

bigdaviet

So let me get this straight, nobody can go out to Dubai and live with their girlfriend unless they get married?

Oh dear!