Those considering Emirates
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Cerbus- Stop smoking that special Shisha.
Nothing wrong with one's mindset if they feel the EK is the best job they ever had.
Nothing wrong with the way EK treats its employees. As it has been said earlier, their sick leave policy is bloody good. I know of guys who have been off for over 6 months and still being paid- no questions asked.
Orange-
There has been soooo much written about the questions you have posed, here on pprune. Try searching for it.
Nothing wrong with one's mindset if they feel the EK is the best job they ever had.
Nothing wrong with the way EK treats its employees. As it has been said earlier, their sick leave policy is bloody good. I know of guys who have been off for over 6 months and still being paid- no questions asked.
Orange-
There has been soooo much written about the questions you have posed, here on pprune. Try searching for it.
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Fatbus you state,
''Why do you think they started the flt pay system? Most pilots here are money hungry and as soon as they are in productivity they will think twice about booking off.''
We do not get flight pay for overtime hours. Each overtime hour is at a set rate and FLT PAY is not added on top. In fact, we get paid less for each hour of overtime than we get for regular time. I have always found that to be somewhat strange.
So...flt pay was NOT started to discourage booking off when in overtime. One reason behind flt pay was to reward those who work more hours each month (logical in my opinion) but the biggest reason was to limit the higher costs associated with a higher basic salary (in other words, the remuneration given to pilots)
Regarding the other posts, the DEC policy is here to stay. The company will utilize this policy whenever it sees fit and quite frankly they don't care one bit if it disadvantages F/O's already here. They have proven that time and time again and have given no indication this will change. The only thing they care about in these regards, is the perception of 'potential' applicants regarding this policy. This is why they slip out rumours via their minions that 'the policy is not in effect' or 'no more DEC's in the near future', etc.
They only try to balance the damage caused by the perception of a few months delay (which clearly has been more than that in the past), with the subsequent decline in applicants as F/O's.
I think some of the biggest negatives for those considering EK, should be;
1- the DEC policy. I don't care how grateful, understanding and professional a pilot is, when he is sitting in the right seat at year 3, next to a DEC who jumped the queue into the left seat, it is demoralizing, frustrating and financially penalizing. To top it off, the policy is simply in place due to a 'perceived' cost savings and not for any operational benefit.
2- inflation, the associated accomodation issues and the peg to the USD. This is the money issue and obviously might be more important to some than others. (oddly enough accomodation may turn out to be the biggest factor or it might be a non-issue, depending on the luck of the draw)
3- the insane factoring of hours and subsequent decline in pilot health and increase in flight safety issues (a past illegal policy that fortunately should not be repeated, but given that EK and the GCAA are in bed together, who knows)
4- a lack of a true seniority based system. This affects time to command, lifestyle and subsequently salary. A pilot hired after you may be selected for promotion ahead of you simply because of the fleet he was initially assigned to. I suspect this policy will be further aggravated with the introduction of the A380.
The rest of the issues raised on Pprune, although important, can be tolerated. For example........ can they really start calculating our duty hours any less than they already do now? Can the dangerous roads get any worse than now? Some of these annoyances are fixed and if you feel it won't affect you dramatically, then you just have to consider the 4 issues I mentioned above.
I still think EK is a good job for many, especially those who feel their present airline is on the verge of downsizing or even folding. There are lots of good, if not great, things about EK. Job security is one. Aircraft equipment is another. Good routes and destinations, although layovers are short and per diems minimal. Experience is another excellent attribute of EK. There is no other airline that does the same flying to such varied and extensive destinations as EK.
''Why do you think they started the flt pay system? Most pilots here are money hungry and as soon as they are in productivity they will think twice about booking off.''
We do not get flight pay for overtime hours. Each overtime hour is at a set rate and FLT PAY is not added on top. In fact, we get paid less for each hour of overtime than we get for regular time. I have always found that to be somewhat strange.
So...flt pay was NOT started to discourage booking off when in overtime. One reason behind flt pay was to reward those who work more hours each month (logical in my opinion) but the biggest reason was to limit the higher costs associated with a higher basic salary (in other words, the remuneration given to pilots)
Regarding the other posts, the DEC policy is here to stay. The company will utilize this policy whenever it sees fit and quite frankly they don't care one bit if it disadvantages F/O's already here. They have proven that time and time again and have given no indication this will change. The only thing they care about in these regards, is the perception of 'potential' applicants regarding this policy. This is why they slip out rumours via their minions that 'the policy is not in effect' or 'no more DEC's in the near future', etc.
They only try to balance the damage caused by the perception of a few months delay (which clearly has been more than that in the past), with the subsequent decline in applicants as F/O's.
I think some of the biggest negatives for those considering EK, should be;
1- the DEC policy. I don't care how grateful, understanding and professional a pilot is, when he is sitting in the right seat at year 3, next to a DEC who jumped the queue into the left seat, it is demoralizing, frustrating and financially penalizing. To top it off, the policy is simply in place due to a 'perceived' cost savings and not for any operational benefit.
2- inflation, the associated accomodation issues and the peg to the USD. This is the money issue and obviously might be more important to some than others. (oddly enough accomodation may turn out to be the biggest factor or it might be a non-issue, depending on the luck of the draw)
3- the insane factoring of hours and subsequent decline in pilot health and increase in flight safety issues (a past illegal policy that fortunately should not be repeated, but given that EK and the GCAA are in bed together, who knows)
4- a lack of a true seniority based system. This affects time to command, lifestyle and subsequently salary. A pilot hired after you may be selected for promotion ahead of you simply because of the fleet he was initially assigned to. I suspect this policy will be further aggravated with the introduction of the A380.
The rest of the issues raised on Pprune, although important, can be tolerated. For example........ can they really start calculating our duty hours any less than they already do now? Can the dangerous roads get any worse than now? Some of these annoyances are fixed and if you feel it won't affect you dramatically, then you just have to consider the 4 issues I mentioned above.
I still think EK is a good job for many, especially those who feel their present airline is on the verge of downsizing or even folding. There are lots of good, if not great, things about EK. Job security is one. Aircraft equipment is another. Good routes and destinations, although layovers are short and per diems minimal. Experience is another excellent attribute of EK. There is no other airline that does the same flying to such varied and extensive destinations as EK.
Why would you join an airline that does not respect its employees?
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cerebus,
Man, I think you are the one that has lost it. Your last post was a blatant personal attack on some-one for no reason and adds no value to the debate.....something that I see is quite common in your posts. Where I come from people that have nothing constructive to contribute should rather keep quiet.
Now that you have started on about the poor slave labour here......I feel for them, however, each and every person is responsible for their own lot in life. That means that while I feel sorry for the chap, he is here working like a slave because that is the way his life has worked out. To be brutally honest, all that matters to me is how they treat me. That is all that I have control over.....anything else is futile. The fact is, they treat me well, so I am happy with my lot.
In terms of DEC, definitely a sore point, but I tell you what, I have accepted that as reality. I have assesed the potential impact on my position and readjusted my command aspirations to a realistic level and now I live with it. I am much happier for it. Funny though that one does not see as much complaining about the accelerated commands, which boils down to the same thing.
Another funny thing......at the interview they didn't tell me when I would get a command. I came here knowing that it would be an uncertain period. All I have is the confidence that it will be quicker than just about anywhere else........
Man, I think you are the one that has lost it. Your last post was a blatant personal attack on some-one for no reason and adds no value to the debate.....something that I see is quite common in your posts. Where I come from people that have nothing constructive to contribute should rather keep quiet.
Now that you have started on about the poor slave labour here......I feel for them, however, each and every person is responsible for their own lot in life. That means that while I feel sorry for the chap, he is here working like a slave because that is the way his life has worked out. To be brutally honest, all that matters to me is how they treat me. That is all that I have control over.....anything else is futile. The fact is, they treat me well, so I am happy with my lot.
In terms of DEC, definitely a sore point, but I tell you what, I have accepted that as reality. I have assesed the potential impact on my position and readjusted my command aspirations to a realistic level and now I live with it. I am much happier for it. Funny though that one does not see as much complaining about the accelerated commands, which boils down to the same thing.
Another funny thing......at the interview they didn't tell me when I would get a command. I came here knowing that it would be an uncertain period. All I have is the confidence that it will be quicker than just about anywhere else........
Last edited by Kennytheking; 18th Jun 2008 at 05:40. Reason: spelling
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Heard this on a flight the other day. Typical of the policies here and how people think around it. As we know if the cabin crew call sick up to four hours before a flight they are marked absent. Also for them to get a short notice appointment at the clinic ( not nurse advice but a doc) is difficult.
the sollution I was told by a member of the cc , "no problem I'll just go to work sick , seeing as though I am going to be marked absent anyway I will just "go sick" on the flight and when I get to Singapore ( destination) I will have the EK Doctor come and visit me in my hotel room at my leisure , and besides the Doctors in Singapore are better than Dubai and no waiting for an appointment.
Cant blame them for this sort of logic , what worries me is how sick they really might be. All we need is a diversion enroute because of a draconian policy. Keep discovering ...........
the sollution I was told by a member of the cc , "no problem I'll just go to work sick , seeing as though I am going to be marked absent anyway I will just "go sick" on the flight and when I get to Singapore ( destination) I will have the EK Doctor come and visit me in my hotel room at my leisure , and besides the Doctors in Singapore are better than Dubai and no waiting for an appointment.
Cant blame them for this sort of logic , what worries me is how sick they really might be. All we need is a diversion enroute because of a draconian policy. Keep discovering ...........
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Glad to see my thread has started such a meaningful discussion about Emirates. It is about time and contrary to Arab mentality whenever the truth come out it is good for everyone.
Some pilots like Ek and some don't, I guesss it depends what you are use to and your experience. One item that I did not stress enough is the way management deals with its employees. A neccessary evil. That is a whole new way of thinking everyone has to get use to.
Our poor worker friends on the ramp really don't decide their lot in life though. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. To say you do'nt care about them is very self centered to say the least although I agree there is not much we as pilots can do about it. I do care about them becasue that could very easily be any one of us and is very indicative of Emirates management mentality.
Some pilots like Ek and some don't, I guesss it depends what you are use to and your experience. One item that I did not stress enough is the way management deals with its employees. A neccessary evil. That is a whole new way of thinking everyone has to get use to.
Our poor worker friends on the ramp really don't decide their lot in life though. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. To say you do'nt care about them is very self centered to say the least although I agree there is not much we as pilots can do about it. I do care about them becasue that could very easily be any one of us and is very indicative of Emirates management mentality.
Last edited by Alconguin Crusader; 19th Jun 2008 at 20:39. Reason: content
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If things are half as bad as you claim they are, why are you still there??? I know people at Emirates whose views differ significantly from your account. I realise that Emirates isn't perfect, but like it or not, it provides opportunities for several. As mentioned earlier, if you don't like, leave...Stop spreading such negative views about the company which provides you with a livelihood i.e stop biting the fingers that are feeding you!!!! "A word is enough for the wise."
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Axtec I see you have already joined the Arab mentality; if you don't like it leave. I guess that is real easy for you to say after all how long have you been in the sand box? Do you understand how much pilots invested in cominng to Emirates not only in time, career and money and now you and many others just want us to leave? If everyone that hated Ek left there would not be that many pilots left to fly their airplanes but Kool Aid drinkers like yourself would gladly put up with the treatement. We are trying in the only way possible at EK to make it better. After all I tried to get the union to make it better but I couldn't find the office. I tried to get the GCAA to get Emirates to stop doing their questionable activities but they were always out to lunch or at parties with AAR, TC and ED.
The views expressed here might be negative but they are the truth. The truth hurts when it comes out especially when the higher ups try so hard to suppress it. When you try and suppress the truth it ends up only hurting you in the end so why bother and fight it.
The views expressed here might be negative but they are the truth. The truth hurts when it comes out especially when the higher ups try so hard to suppress it. When you try and suppress the truth it ends up only hurting you in the end so why bother and fight it.
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Horse sh*t 
Whilst I can fully accept that you dont like it in the region to try and pretend that is the experience of everyone out here is tosh.
I'm sorry that you dont like the lifestyle, but you need to accept that not everyone shares your view - I've met far more expats who like the lifestyle than those who dont.
Yes, it is not the same as back home, but that applies to every foreign country - some things are better, some worse. But overall most people find it an enjoyable place to stay for a while.
EK could be better, but you can say that about any job - and it is only a job - I dislike some of the sh*t I have to put up with at work but then I get out of work and enjoy my time off.
If EK were really so much worse than other outfits then I'm sure that someone would actually name these other outfits and we could all b*gger off there.
Whilst I can fully accept that you dont like it in the region to try and pretend that is the experience of everyone out here is tosh.
I'm sorry that you dont like the lifestyle, but you need to accept that not everyone shares your view - I've met far more expats who like the lifestyle than those who dont.
Yes, it is not the same as back home, but that applies to every foreign country - some things are better, some worse. But overall most people find it an enjoyable place to stay for a while.
EK could be better, but you can say that about any job - and it is only a job - I dislike some of the sh*t I have to put up with at work but then I get out of work and enjoy my time off.
If EK were really so much worse than other outfits then I'm sure that someone would actually name these other outfits and we could all b*gger off there.
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BA, CX, QA, AA, LH, AF and the list goes on and on. Most of the Ek pilots can not work at those airlines I know but it is worth comparing so we know how far we are behind the industry. After all we are not getting pilots from the airlines listed above just from the bankrupt airlines; morally and financially. That in itself says a lot of the package at Emirates.
enjoy you time off, after all you only get 14 days off a month.
Lifestyle is what you make it, Emirates is the best practionier of slave labour in the region.
enjoy you time off, after all you only get 14 days off a month.
Lifestyle is what you make it, Emirates is the best practionier of slave labour in the region.
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I beg to differ. There are plenty of pilots from AA working at EK. There is no such thing as a "good" airline job anymore. The profession has been in decline for many years now. Pick a scumbag outfit and just ride it out. It makes no difference.
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cerbus,
You keep saying, what you say is the truth. No, sir, I believe it is your point of view and your perception (which in turn is your reality). Others' reality is somewhat different and circustances from which others come from are different. Therefore, they don't waste their time on this board.
Give me an airline that will pay your salary (not flt pay) for a year while you recover from an accident, illness or whatever, not ask any questions, not have to use allocated leave to cover one's salary etc., any day.
Are things perfect here? Oh hell no. Could things be better? You bet. But if I ever meet you and you can convince me that airline abc or airline xyz is perfect without warts and blemishes, all the beer for a year is on me. But I will agree that the major downside of EK is having to live in Dubai. EK can't fix that, but you should have known or researched living in the ME before you arrived.
Bitch and moan all you want about Dubai, the heat, the infrastructure, the traffic, the laws..........But EK is like 90% of big time airlines around the world, good and bad. Union? Might have to go to a little higher paygrade than TC or MF. You might have to do some info picketing in front of Sheik Mo's villa. See where that gets you. Have fun.
You keep saying, what you say is the truth. No, sir, I believe it is your point of view and your perception (which in turn is your reality). Others' reality is somewhat different and circustances from which others come from are different. Therefore, they don't waste their time on this board.
Give me an airline that will pay your salary (not flt pay) for a year while you recover from an accident, illness or whatever, not ask any questions, not have to use allocated leave to cover one's salary etc., any day.
Are things perfect here? Oh hell no. Could things be better? You bet. But if I ever meet you and you can convince me that airline abc or airline xyz is perfect without warts and blemishes, all the beer for a year is on me. But I will agree that the major downside of EK is having to live in Dubai. EK can't fix that, but you should have known or researched living in the ME before you arrived.
Bitch and moan all you want about Dubai, the heat, the infrastructure, the traffic, the laws..........But EK is like 90% of big time airlines around the world, good and bad. Union? Might have to go to a little higher paygrade than TC or MF. You might have to do some info picketing in front of Sheik Mo's villa. See where that gets you. Have fun.
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Emirates can fix the problems of living in Dubai easily, with basings.
They choose not to for whatever their reasons.
I am sure most Emirates crew would accept lesser pay to
escape Dubai, particularly during HELL, I mean summer.
They choose not to for whatever their reasons.
I am sure most Emirates crew would accept lesser pay to
escape Dubai, particularly during HELL, I mean summer.
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Things change, and yes we all would like to work for one of the old state protected dinosaurs but the world changes - your more likely to get a job with an outfit like Ryanair than one of the old majors nowdays.
enjoy you time off, after all you only get 14 days off a month.
Lifestyle is what you make it, Emirates is the best practionier of slave labour in the region.
Lifestyle is what you make it, Emirates is the best practionier of slave labour in the region.
I see the company will have to organise a few more floggings until morale improves
Jet,
The funny thing is, in his zealotry, he absolutley does not see the irony in saying us poor "Slaves" ONLY get 14 days off a month!!
The funny thing is, in his zealotry, he absolutley does not see the irony in saying us poor "Slaves" ONLY get 14 days off a month!!
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I suspect that with many hundreds of American pilots applying weekly, the people who make such decisions don't give a monkey's toss, but a basing would keep me in the Sheikh's willing employ for a few more years than the current situation is going to. And free up another villa for one of the 100(!) new pilots in temporary accommodation.
I hear another four or five 777 captains have tendered (or are about to tender) the big 'R' for the brave move to VA? That people with families are willing to leave the Sandpit for so much less money and such a woeful contract as the one I believe VA are offering and in these current uncertain times speaks volumes for the dissatisfaction some are feeling about life in said Sandpit.
In CBC a couple of days ago, I heard one very pissed off 777 pilot telling how he got back from a 9 day Auckland a week or two ago to find the police had towed his car away. (Ony in Dubai, when your (old) car takes a walk by itself, do you first suspect the cops rather than a car thief!!!) Apparently, the public street outside a local's house is "his" and no one but [i]the local[/] can park there(!)
Unbelievable? Not in the Sandpit - and he (the pilot, not the local who called to have it towed away) had to pay 310 Dirhams "discovery fee" to recover it - after a two hour wait from midnight to 2:00am, because the day shift cops didn't care to explain to him how it is that the policeman who did tow it away can do so when it's parked in a public, no limit suburban street with no signage limiting parking or reserving the spot for the local, so they told him to come back in the middle of the night to talk to the guy who could.
Who couldn't.
Keep discovering.
I hear another four or five 777 captains have tendered (or are about to tender) the big 'R' for the brave move to VA? That people with families are willing to leave the Sandpit for so much less money and such a woeful contract as the one I believe VA are offering and in these current uncertain times speaks volumes for the dissatisfaction some are feeling about life in said Sandpit.
In CBC a couple of days ago, I heard one very pissed off 777 pilot telling how he got back from a 9 day Auckland a week or two ago to find the police had towed his car away. (Ony in Dubai, when your (old) car takes a walk by itself, do you first suspect the cops rather than a car thief!!!) Apparently, the public street outside a local's house is "his" and no one but [i]the local[/] can park there(!)
Unbelievable? Not in the Sandpit - and he (the pilot, not the local who called to have it towed away) had to pay 310 Dirhams "discovery fee" to recover it - after a two hour wait from midnight to 2:00am, because the day shift cops didn't care to explain to him how it is that the policeman who did tow it away can do so when it's parked in a public, no limit suburban street with no signage limiting parking or reserving the spot for the local, so they told him to come back in the middle of the night to talk to the guy who could.
Who couldn't.
Keep discovering.
