Ek Airbus upgrades delays
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B Bonga..... you state the following (sorry can't get my quote thing to work)
''It's has become almost a norm that some EK FO's feel it's their right to get command at 3 years and if it doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum.........come on guys. Command gets delayed by a couple of months and it off to "mama Pprune" to whinge............! I think closure of this thread would be appropriate.........or at least an age restriction of some sort''
When a big factor in a pilots decision to come to EK, is the rapid Upgrades, then they have every right to bitch when the company DOES NOT FOLLOW its own written rules. In a nutshell......... qualified F/O's, then Accelerated F/O's, then as a last resort DEC's.
I have never seen an F/O throw a tantrum, as you state, nor do I know one F/O that thinks it is their right to command in 3 years. I have never witnessed it nor have I ever even heard about such antics. Either you are purposely misrepresenting things or you are simply ignorant. Before you get YOUR panties in an uproar,
Ignorant:1. uninstructed, untutored, untaught. Ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, uneducated mean lacking in knowledge or in training. Ignorant may mean knowing little or nothing, or it may mean uninformed about a particular subject.
If Upgrade delays are incurred one single day due to DEC's, then that is clearly wrong. Recently delays have been over a year due to the DEC policy. I only hope that the latest delays will be in the 'few month range' but I suspect that things will quickly deteriorate.
No wonder EK cannot get more than 5 expat F/O's opting for the A380. They all suspect they will be stuck there even longer than the idiotic 2 years the company is freezing them in the right seat.
I think the company has proven beyond reasonable doubt, that the DEC program will never be stopped. This is a serious mistake on the company's part. Every prospective F/O, at least the informed ones, should take a good long look at the 'promises versus reality' of EK management. F/O then Accelerated F/O then DEC is a promise which has not been kept for almost 5 years now.
When more pressure comes upon recruiting then more DEC's will be hired, with less and less viable experience. Simple as that !!
Say goodbye to the few available villas, prepare to coach some of these DEC's for their first year online, and take an educated guess at the Upgrade time frame. Not a pretty picture for an F/O in my opinion.
I think every single F/O who suffers any delay whatsoever, has every right to be pissed off and should be whinging on Pprune. It is the only outlet they have, so cut them some slack.
''It's has become almost a norm that some EK FO's feel it's their right to get command at 3 years and if it doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum.........come on guys. Command gets delayed by a couple of months and it off to "mama Pprune" to whinge............! I think closure of this thread would be appropriate.........or at least an age restriction of some sort''
When a big factor in a pilots decision to come to EK, is the rapid Upgrades, then they have every right to bitch when the company DOES NOT FOLLOW its own written rules. In a nutshell......... qualified F/O's, then Accelerated F/O's, then as a last resort DEC's.
I have never seen an F/O throw a tantrum, as you state, nor do I know one F/O that thinks it is their right to command in 3 years. I have never witnessed it nor have I ever even heard about such antics. Either you are purposely misrepresenting things or you are simply ignorant. Before you get YOUR panties in an uproar,
Ignorant:1. uninstructed, untutored, untaught. Ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, uneducated mean lacking in knowledge or in training. Ignorant may mean knowing little or nothing, or it may mean uninformed about a particular subject.
If Upgrade delays are incurred one single day due to DEC's, then that is clearly wrong. Recently delays have been over a year due to the DEC policy. I only hope that the latest delays will be in the 'few month range' but I suspect that things will quickly deteriorate.
No wonder EK cannot get more than 5 expat F/O's opting for the A380. They all suspect they will be stuck there even longer than the idiotic 2 years the company is freezing them in the right seat.
I think the company has proven beyond reasonable doubt, that the DEC program will never be stopped. This is a serious mistake on the company's part. Every prospective F/O, at least the informed ones, should take a good long look at the 'promises versus reality' of EK management. F/O then Accelerated F/O then DEC is a promise which has not been kept for almost 5 years now.
When more pressure comes upon recruiting then more DEC's will be hired, with less and less viable experience. Simple as that !!
Say goodbye to the few available villas, prepare to coach some of these DEC's for their first year online, and take an educated guess at the Upgrade time frame. Not a pretty picture for an F/O in my opinion.
I think every single F/O who suffers any delay whatsoever, has every right to be pissed off and should be whinging on Pprune. It is the only outlet they have, so cut them some slack.
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Fareflyer, you said:
Just to inform all those who are moaning the real reason of the delay is that they are getting more DEC in the Airbus fleet.
Please can you say if this is an opinion or do you have more info/facts to corroborate the above said?
As I understand it EK is still getting DECs for the B777, not for the Airbus fleet.
The reason obviously would be to upgrade the FOs on the Airbus fleet, where there seems to be older guys than on the B777 fleet. The reasonable way to go is to hire more FOs to the Airbus fleet, including the A380s.
SF
Just to inform all those who are moaning the real reason of the delay is that they are getting more DEC in the Airbus fleet.
Please can you say if this is an opinion or do you have more info/facts to corroborate the above said?
As I understand it EK is still getting DECs for the B777, not for the Airbus fleet.
The reason obviously would be to upgrade the FOs on the Airbus fleet, where there seems to be older guys than on the B777 fleet. The reasonable way to go is to hire more FOs to the Airbus fleet, including the A380s.
SF
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SeriousFlyer,
I can verify that DEC's are now appearing in numbers on the Bus fleet. It never actually stopped! They snuck in about 15 while pretending that Airbus DEC's were a thing of the past. I have come to realize it is a cycle here. The company realizes how poorly the DEC policy is perceived by the rest of the world, so they do things incognito.
The DEC policy is INSANE !!!
I have no particular grief with DEC's as human beings or pilots, other than the 10% who are obvious nutcases. (Capt America at the top of that list)
If the DEC policy is something that a potential F/O considers a 'deal breaker', then have no illusions........ it is here to stay. Why doesn't the company publish it accordingly, and stop pretending they will upgrade based on ability and seniority?????
Management does what it believes to be the most cost effective. (although I believe it to be a fallacy) If this was a justified policy, then it would be written in the FOM. It is deceitful and irresponsible for this company to lure people into coming here based on lies.
Publish the policy, give the number of DEC's and the related delays to F/O upgrades, then people can make an informed decision. That would be fair.
~2000 pilots now........... potentially ~4000 in what? 5 years? (I admit I don't know the true number but His Highness has recently stated that due to international circumstances, fuel prices, etc, the 'immediate' outlook is for no future expansion other than what has already been announced) So throw in say, 50 DEC's a year, and how does that affect F/O's about to join? Fooks em' big time !!! 5 years from now, by the way, MOST cadets are eligible for upgrade, too. (deservedly so in my opinion)
Ok, say 50 pilots a year will leave EK too. That might be conservative, but some of them will still be F/O's so that has little affect on upgrades.
My only intent here, is to let people know the reality of the situation. If truth be known I hope all you decent and good guys still want to come to EK . But I would not be able to sleep at night if I was one of these clowns purporting the virtues of EK without giving all the facts.
Please come to EK, I honestly wish we had more applicants, but come with eyes wide open. There are good things here. Nice destinations (although crappy layovers and bad per diems), great aircraft and maintenance, lots to do in DXB (although the city will wear you down over time), the pay is acceptable (only due to no taxes) , and generally a great bunch of pilots with whom to work. Sadly our management are less than desirable, in large part due to NO recourse from the GCAA and general HR policies in this region.
Why have a DEC policy when there is no need for it? You MUST ask that question. There are probably 300 F/O's more than capable of upgrading TOMORROW, so why hire pilots that jump the queue?? This policy says a great deal about how management views pilots.
Thank god we have ED, (who actually views Capt America as a good leader and aircraft Captain), and TCAS who is basically propping up his BA pension (and has no interest in things at all), and AAH (who actually despises pilots), looking after our best interests.
Goodness me, when I get going and start thinking about how they mess with our contractual agreements and dare I say, HEALTH, I start to reassess. Haha. Thank goodness for the beach !
I can verify that DEC's are now appearing in numbers on the Bus fleet. It never actually stopped! They snuck in about 15 while pretending that Airbus DEC's were a thing of the past. I have come to realize it is a cycle here. The company realizes how poorly the DEC policy is perceived by the rest of the world, so they do things incognito.
The DEC policy is INSANE !!!
I have no particular grief with DEC's as human beings or pilots, other than the 10% who are obvious nutcases. (Capt America at the top of that list)
If the DEC policy is something that a potential F/O considers a 'deal breaker', then have no illusions........ it is here to stay. Why doesn't the company publish it accordingly, and stop pretending they will upgrade based on ability and seniority?????
Management does what it believes to be the most cost effective. (although I believe it to be a fallacy) If this was a justified policy, then it would be written in the FOM. It is deceitful and irresponsible for this company to lure people into coming here based on lies.
Publish the policy, give the number of DEC's and the related delays to F/O upgrades, then people can make an informed decision. That would be fair.
~2000 pilots now........... potentially ~4000 in what? 5 years? (I admit I don't know the true number but His Highness has recently stated that due to international circumstances, fuel prices, etc, the 'immediate' outlook is for no future expansion other than what has already been announced) So throw in say, 50 DEC's a year, and how does that affect F/O's about to join? Fooks em' big time !!! 5 years from now, by the way, MOST cadets are eligible for upgrade, too. (deservedly so in my opinion)
Ok, say 50 pilots a year will leave EK too. That might be conservative, but some of them will still be F/O's so that has little affect on upgrades.
My only intent here, is to let people know the reality of the situation. If truth be known I hope all you decent and good guys still want to come to EK . But I would not be able to sleep at night if I was one of these clowns purporting the virtues of EK without giving all the facts.
Please come to EK, I honestly wish we had more applicants, but come with eyes wide open. There are good things here. Nice destinations (although crappy layovers and bad per diems), great aircraft and maintenance, lots to do in DXB (although the city will wear you down over time), the pay is acceptable (only due to no taxes) , and generally a great bunch of pilots with whom to work. Sadly our management are less than desirable, in large part due to NO recourse from the GCAA and general HR policies in this region.
Why have a DEC policy when there is no need for it? You MUST ask that question. There are probably 300 F/O's more than capable of upgrading TOMORROW, so why hire pilots that jump the queue?? This policy says a great deal about how management views pilots.
Thank god we have ED, (who actually views Capt America as a good leader and aircraft Captain), and TCAS who is basically propping up his BA pension (and has no interest in things at all), and AAH (who actually despises pilots), looking after our best interests.
Goodness me, when I get going and start thinking about how they mess with our contractual agreements and dare I say, HEALTH, I start to reassess. Haha. Thank goodness for the beach !
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Mensa not sure where you are getting your info on Airbus DEC's check the seniority list there have been none for a couple of years (except the A310) i agree 100% with the rest of your post however.
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I just counted 13 Airbus Captains on the seniority list who joined after April 05. In other words, less than 3 years to Command, while there are lots of F/O's on the list ahead of them. Why are these 13 out of sequence then? And why are numerous DEC's hired into the LH seat on the Boeing when guys are waiting on the Bus? I thought this was ONE airline, not TWO.
I suppose some of them are Accelerated Commands but that is STILL NOT IN ACCORDANCE with the FOM. F/O then Accelerated then DEC.
If I am out to lunch on those numbers, then my apologies, but other than Accelerated Commands, they must be DEC's.
In this time frame, there were NO new airbus aircraft arriving and yet they still took people out of seniority. What is going to happen when the new Airbus start arriving?
The number of DEC's on the Boeing in this time frame is shocking. Either way, Airbus F/O's have been seriously disadvantaged by the policy. The company needs a Boeing Captain?......... hell there are tons beyond 3 years waiting on the Airbus.......... slide them over !!
Whatever the numbers, there is no denying the fact that F/O's have been....... and will continue to be...... disadvantaged by a policy that is in direct contradiction to the FOM and the publicly proclaimed intent of the company.
This is a result of an 'intent' to disadvantage (to potentially save money), or an inability to attract candidates for F/O positions (a direct result of the same policy which must now be perpetuated in order to alleviate the crisis)
Either way, history proves (last 4 years) that DEC's are the preferred policy of this company. If that is the case, why all the subterfuge?......... simply state it in the FOM and during recruitment, then everyone knows the facts.
The company can do as it pleases. If it decides to become a DEC predominated airline then so be it. I don't think it was necessary in the past but now it might be, simply because the one big attraction of EK (a fast command on big shiney jets), is not exactly the reality of it all. Remember how it all started? ''Oh we got some unexpected A343's so we require DEC's'' What a load of crap, that was an excuse only. Once an airline starts down that road, for better or for worse, it is very difficult to alter the perception from prospective applicants and it is almost impossible to stop the policy once that happens.
It is self perpetuating. Hire some DEC's because there are not enough FO's in a position to upgrade (which in itself was a lie)..... then less FO's want to join......... so hire more DEC's because they can't get the FO's........... it is a neverending cycle.
Once again, nothing against the vast majority of DEC's. This is not about them........ it is about a stupid policy that is causing more problems than it is solving. Just my opinion.
I suppose some of them are Accelerated Commands but that is STILL NOT IN ACCORDANCE with the FOM. F/O then Accelerated then DEC.
If I am out to lunch on those numbers, then my apologies, but other than Accelerated Commands, they must be DEC's.
In this time frame, there were NO new airbus aircraft arriving and yet they still took people out of seniority. What is going to happen when the new Airbus start arriving?
The number of DEC's on the Boeing in this time frame is shocking. Either way, Airbus F/O's have been seriously disadvantaged by the policy. The company needs a Boeing Captain?......... hell there are tons beyond 3 years waiting on the Airbus.......... slide them over !!
Whatever the numbers, there is no denying the fact that F/O's have been....... and will continue to be...... disadvantaged by a policy that is in direct contradiction to the FOM and the publicly proclaimed intent of the company.
This is a result of an 'intent' to disadvantage (to potentially save money), or an inability to attract candidates for F/O positions (a direct result of the same policy which must now be perpetuated in order to alleviate the crisis)
Either way, history proves (last 4 years) that DEC's are the preferred policy of this company. If that is the case, why all the subterfuge?......... simply state it in the FOM and during recruitment, then everyone knows the facts.
The company can do as it pleases. If it decides to become a DEC predominated airline then so be it. I don't think it was necessary in the past but now it might be, simply because the one big attraction of EK (a fast command on big shiney jets), is not exactly the reality of it all. Remember how it all started? ''Oh we got some unexpected A343's so we require DEC's'' What a load of crap, that was an excuse only. Once an airline starts down that road, for better or for worse, it is very difficult to alter the perception from prospective applicants and it is almost impossible to stop the policy once that happens.
It is self perpetuating. Hire some DEC's because there are not enough FO's in a position to upgrade (which in itself was a lie)..... then less FO's want to join......... so hire more DEC's because they can't get the FO's........... it is a neverending cycle.
Once again, nothing against the vast majority of DEC's. This is not about them........ it is about a stupid policy that is causing more problems than it is solving. Just my opinion.
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mensa,
EK doesn't give a fcuck about their FO's and whatever they promised, its cheaper to get a DEC than to upgrade, cheaper thats what counts here, nothing else.
just wait for DEC's on the 380, tcas friends will come after they are done with BA, play golf and retire on the biggest aircraft in the world, the EK salary plus a BA pension is not too bad after all.
you are spot on about ed, tcas and tartan guy ( captain america(brian))
EK doesn't give a fcuck about their FO's and whatever they promised, its cheaper to get a DEC than to upgrade, cheaper thats what counts here, nothing else.
just wait for DEC's on the 380, tcas friends will come after they are done with BA, play golf and retire on the biggest aircraft in the world, the EK salary plus a BA pension is not too bad after all.
you are spot on about ed, tcas and tartan guy ( captain america(brian))
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Guy's, just to kick you in the balls when you're down, it is CONFIRMED that we will NOW betaking DEC's onto the Airbus.
How about that chaps? What a bunch of un-caring/contemptuous C U Next Tuesdays our management are!
Potential DEC's please take note, its nothing personal guys, but if you join onto the Airbus now, you catagorically WILL be taking the place/jobs of F/O's who have been here over 4.5 years (50% longer than their Boeing counterparts already in the LHS) and will definately not be welcome! Sorry but its a fact.
This is costing the F/O's on average 10,000 dhs for every month they are not in the LHS... let alone the other perks like being able to let your kids in Business Class etc. 'kin unacceptable I'm sure you'll agree??
Also, you may be interested to know that you will spend an absolute MINIMUM of 6 months in the grottiest sh1thole temporary accomodation in Deira.
So be absolutely sure you want to come, knowing that you will be poorly regarded by your collegues, and where you WILL be living.
By all ,means come and join on the B777. The junior F/O's there are still getting their commands at 3 years, so they wont have arse ache...
How about that chaps? What a bunch of un-caring/contemptuous C U Next Tuesdays our management are!
Potential DEC's please take note, its nothing personal guys, but if you join onto the Airbus now, you catagorically WILL be taking the place/jobs of F/O's who have been here over 4.5 years (50% longer than their Boeing counterparts already in the LHS) and will definately not be welcome! Sorry but its a fact.
This is costing the F/O's on average 10,000 dhs for every month they are not in the LHS... let alone the other perks like being able to let your kids in Business Class etc. 'kin unacceptable I'm sure you'll agree??
Also, you may be interested to know that you will spend an absolute MINIMUM of 6 months in the grottiest sh1thole temporary accomodation in Deira.
So be absolutely sure you want to come, knowing that you will be poorly regarded by your collegues, and where you WILL be living.
By all ,means come and join on the B777. The junior F/O's there are still getting their commands at 3 years, so they wont have arse ache...
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I am guessing, but the DEC program is a money and asset deal. To hire a DEC takes only one training event and nobody being removed from the line. To upgrade a deserving first officer removes him from the line, requires a training event and another training event for his replacement.
That's the only reason I can see for the DEC program with the number of qualed right seaters available here already. Now if everybody in the right seat had limited time and experience, like many of the asian carriers, it might be justified. Go figure.......
That's the only reason I can see for the DEC program with the number of qualed right seaters available here already. Now if everybody in the right seat had limited time and experience, like many of the asian carriers, it might be justified. Go figure.......
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Guy's, just to kick you in the balls when you're down, it is CONFIRMED that we will NOW betaking DEC's onto the Airbus.
Oblaaspop, as this is a Rumor site, nothing is really confirmed.
I've got good friends as Airbus FOs (I do not work for EK) and they had their upgrade courses postponed for 3 months, but they also told me that the movement of pilots (Captains and FOs) between Airbus and B777 fleets is suspended.
Emratty and Fart Master, those friends of mine have told me exactly the same as you have written here.
Could someone make these facts clear?
And as I see it, EK is likely to get a very small number of Decs due to the poor contract conditions, as well as the company accommodation issue, and I don't think they will get the chance to choose on which fleet they would like to fly.
Decs are everywhere and Emirates have been using this policy for years.
SF
Oblaaspop, as this is a Rumor site, nothing is really confirmed.
I've got good friends as Airbus FOs (I do not work for EK) and they had their upgrade courses postponed for 3 months, but they also told me that the movement of pilots (Captains and FOs) between Airbus and B777 fleets is suspended.
Emratty and Fart Master, those friends of mine have told me exactly the same as you have written here.
Could someone make these facts clear?
And as I see it, EK is likely to get a very small number of Decs due to the poor contract conditions, as well as the company accommodation issue, and I don't think they will get the chance to choose on which fleet they would like to fly.
Decs are everywhere and Emirates have been using this policy for years.
SF
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To Oblaaspop,
it is because people like you that we are in this situation. Asking DEC's to go to the Boeing fleet is an extremely selfish suggestion. Each one of us with this attitude has led us to this situation. Instead, I would suggest to stop DEC's until there is no F/O been bypassed. Putting DEC's in different fleets doesn't solve the problem. Maybe you wouldn't mind in seeing DEC's in the Boeing fleet (which is really contradictory).
BTW, just for your info, Upgrades have been delayed in the Boeing and at this moment we are looking at a 4 or 5 months "delay".
In 2006 Emirates hired a large number of DEC's (95% of them in the Boeing and a few in the A310) and they continue to do it, although at a reduced rate. F/Os who joined in Aug. 2005 will start the course on October and be upgraded probably on December.
I simpatize with your cause, but throwing the dirty to the other side does not solve the problem.
A someone mentioned before, no one feels like is his/her right to get the command in 3 years, what people complain about is the fact that upgrades are being delayed because the F/Os are being bypassed and the FOM is not being followed. This is happening in ALL FLEETS.
Pitoss
it is because people like you that we are in this situation. Asking DEC's to go to the Boeing fleet is an extremely selfish suggestion. Each one of us with this attitude has led us to this situation. Instead, I would suggest to stop DEC's until there is no F/O been bypassed. Putting DEC's in different fleets doesn't solve the problem. Maybe you wouldn't mind in seeing DEC's in the Boeing fleet (which is really contradictory).
BTW, just for your info, Upgrades have been delayed in the Boeing and at this moment we are looking at a 4 or 5 months "delay".
In 2006 Emirates hired a large number of DEC's (95% of them in the Boeing and a few in the A310) and they continue to do it, although at a reduced rate. F/Os who joined in Aug. 2005 will start the course on October and be upgraded probably on December.
I simpatize with your cause, but throwing the dirty to the other side does not solve the problem.
A someone mentioned before, no one feels like is his/her right to get the command in 3 years, what people complain about is the fact that upgrades are being delayed because the F/Os are being bypassed and the FOM is not being followed. This is happening in ALL FLEETS.
Pitoss
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No use moaning and bitching.
It is all about numbers to fill seats, LH and RH. Aircraft are coming on both fleets (777 and 380) and recruitment is admittedly still getting all sorts of applications. Now it simply runs down to who accepts the poor conditions or who has the required qualifications, apparently not yet lowered to questionable standards.. …..
It appears that with the actual T&Cs, there are not enough FOs, but still some desperate Captains who sign on. Not surprisingly because when some carriers go bust in the USA not only FOs lose their seat, but skippers as well. Some WILL take the DEC offer irrespective of what EK FOs think of them. You all would do the same to feed a family. EK will take in whatever seems suitable to them, they just look for the fast numbers.
Another bottleneck is the instructors. Again their T&Cs are such, that not enough stay put. Training a entire crew is more efficient than running everyone through the FO mill, then the upgrade. Simple economics and ergonomics. Respecting contracts, following the own FOM, fulfilling promises or honouring what has been stipulated? It is simply not culture around here, not at EK, not in the Middle East. The only thing that counts is greed. Each department can just overview its own shed in their backyard. They get as little truth or information from above as we do, so they just have to work with what’s at their hands and deliver whatever is demanded. There is not a master plan to screw the FOs, there is just greedy pressure from above and the fastest and most cost effective solution is followed. Nobody in management wants to realise that this is short term thinking and a more logical and just solution would pay off in the long run. Proof is the dwindling numbers of suitable FOs applying, which is just a consequence of their poor treatment. Unfortunately this leads to the precarious situation that EK is forced to keep up the DEC program and the FOs are stuck on their seat even longer. We should encourage all our friends to apply as FOs, but who can do this with a clean conscience?
Moaning and bitching is futile. What could help? Unfortunately I don’t know.
It is all about numbers to fill seats, LH and RH. Aircraft are coming on both fleets (777 and 380) and recruitment is admittedly still getting all sorts of applications. Now it simply runs down to who accepts the poor conditions or who has the required qualifications, apparently not yet lowered to questionable standards.. …..
It appears that with the actual T&Cs, there are not enough FOs, but still some desperate Captains who sign on. Not surprisingly because when some carriers go bust in the USA not only FOs lose their seat, but skippers as well. Some WILL take the DEC offer irrespective of what EK FOs think of them. You all would do the same to feed a family. EK will take in whatever seems suitable to them, they just look for the fast numbers.
Another bottleneck is the instructors. Again their T&Cs are such, that not enough stay put. Training a entire crew is more efficient than running everyone through the FO mill, then the upgrade. Simple economics and ergonomics. Respecting contracts, following the own FOM, fulfilling promises or honouring what has been stipulated? It is simply not culture around here, not at EK, not in the Middle East. The only thing that counts is greed. Each department can just overview its own shed in their backyard. They get as little truth or information from above as we do, so they just have to work with what’s at their hands and deliver whatever is demanded. There is not a master plan to screw the FOs, there is just greedy pressure from above and the fastest and most cost effective solution is followed. Nobody in management wants to realise that this is short term thinking and a more logical and just solution would pay off in the long run. Proof is the dwindling numbers of suitable FOs applying, which is just a consequence of their poor treatment. Unfortunately this leads to the precarious situation that EK is forced to keep up the DEC program and the FOs are stuck on their seat even longer. We should encourage all our friends to apply as FOs, but who can do this with a clean conscience?
Moaning and bitching is futile. What could help? Unfortunately I don’t know.
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Oblaaspop, how about we make a deal? If I come I will give you DH10000 per month and my nice shiney bars!!! Then would you smile at me from across the cockpit or would you sit there hoping I f*** myself up??? Buddy we had a similar thing in GF but it's not the guys who joins fault it's the company's fault. So at least aim your blame & contempt in the right direction. As they say "If the shoe was on the other foot...."
Otherwise I feel for all you guys. We got stuck for a long time due to DECs & other things?!. So the best of luck to you all.
Otherwise I feel for all you guys. We got stuck for a long time due to DECs & other things?!. So the best of luck to you all.
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Hey mate, if you actually bothered to read my post properly, I did state that it was 'nothing personal'. I also stated that AT PRESENT it is only the Airbus that is ADVERSELY affected (Pitoss, for your info - as clearly you haven't been here that long- the 'Bus has had an average of over 4 years to command for at least the last year, so stop whinging about your poxy couple of month delay), so on the Boeing you would be slightly better received!
For the record, I do not have a problem with the actual DEC's themselves (far from it), I do however have a major problem with this EVIL UNECCESSARY policy! Surely (despite your obvious thick skin) you are able to empathise a little here?
I just feel potential DEC's should be made aware of exactly what is going on in the company at present. Don't kid yourself that EK is deperately seeking your superior command skills because the F/O's aren't suitable, I would imagine several of the F/O's you will fly with here will have more experience in their little fingers than you have - its purely a financial reason.......
So don't take it so personally buddy, there are guys here who are clearly having their careers/lives screwed with badly. But then I guess you think we should all just roll over and take it up the wrong'un??
For the record, I do not have a problem with the actual DEC's themselves (far from it), I do however have a major problem with this EVIL UNECCESSARY policy! Surely (despite your obvious thick skin) you are able to empathise a little here?
I just feel potential DEC's should be made aware of exactly what is going on in the company at present. Don't kid yourself that EK is deperately seeking your superior command skills because the F/O's aren't suitable, I would imagine several of the F/O's you will fly with here will have more experience in their little fingers than you have - its purely a financial reason.......
So don't take it so personally buddy, there are guys here who are clearly having their careers/lives screwed with badly. But then I guess you think we should all just roll over and take it up the wrong'un??
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Just to make this argument a bit simpler for us mere mortals, could the people concerned please answer the following:
1. Does EK actually state in writing, when one gets their command, or it's a given from previous guys or common practice ?
2. What delay are we talking about, when you say Airbus command delayed ?
3. How is EK going to/should crew the arriving A380 and B777 coming literally at one each month per aircraft for the next two year l think without recruiting DEC's ?
I think these and other questions might shed some light on the plight of the concerned parties.............and maybe we could sympathise with you.
1. Does EK actually state in writing, when one gets their command, or it's a given from previous guys or common practice ?
2. What delay are we talking about, when you say Airbus command delayed ?
3. How is EK going to/should crew the arriving A380 and B777 coming literally at one each month per aircraft for the next two year l think without recruiting DEC's ?
I think these and other questions might shed some light on the plight of the concerned parties.............and maybe we could sympathise with you.
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To Oblasspop,
I've been here for much longer than you think and I do know the Airbus guys have been waiting for 4 years. I also know that some of them (accelerate commands) got their upgrade in the Boeing last year and in the previous one and others are in the 6 months waiting period.
With that said, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to clean up one side by damaging the other. The policy is wrong for everybody, but I guess as long as it is good (or better) for you, the rest doesn't matter. By the way, B777 F/Os are looking for 3 years and 5 months which is not much different if compared to the 4 years in the Airbus (maybe you can be happy now)!
Fly safe
Pitoss
I've been here for much longer than you think and I do know the Airbus guys have been waiting for 4 years. I also know that some of them (accelerate commands) got their upgrade in the Boeing last year and in the previous one and others are in the 6 months waiting period.
With that said, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to clean up one side by damaging the other. The policy is wrong for everybody, but I guess as long as it is good (or better) for you, the rest doesn't matter. By the way, B777 F/Os are looking for 3 years and 5 months which is not much different if compared to the 4 years in the Airbus (maybe you can be happy now)!
Fly safe
Pitoss
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B. Bonga,
1. Nothing is ever given in writing, all we have is what the FOM says as a guideline but in reality it is not followed unless it is to the company's advantage. The FOM in this case is used as a deceptive document, which is basically what is causing so much grief to people expecting it to be honored.
2. I don't know the delay and quite frankly I doubt anyone knows. But, as little as a couple of months ago, it appeared that the Airbus commands would get back on track as early as the end of this year. That prophesy appears to be wrong now. If I would guess, taking into account the arrival of the A380's, the recruiting difficulties (or at least recruiting those who are more willing to accept delays), the 'hints' of delays, the 2 year freeze for the poor bastards who have chosen the A380 right seat (then again they were told up front about that one, although I predict the company will come up with some excuse to keep them in the right seat well beyond 2 years after they switched fleets).... yes i'm cynical now.......... I would estimate most Airbus upgrades to be around 4 years for the foreseeable future. That is not that bad as long as that is what you are expecting prior to your arrival. It is just sad that it has come to that, when there was no need for any delays whatsoever.
3. It is easy to crew the arriving A380's and 777's if the company had any inclination towards a normal career progression for pilots. If they ran out of F/O's approaching 3 years, then certainly DEC's would be an option. Unfortunately, it is not the lack of 'upgradeable' F/O's that has motivated the insane DEC policy, so don't expect that to change. $$$$ is all that counts.
1. Nothing is ever given in writing, all we have is what the FOM says as a guideline but in reality it is not followed unless it is to the company's advantage. The FOM in this case is used as a deceptive document, which is basically what is causing so much grief to people expecting it to be honored.
2. I don't know the delay and quite frankly I doubt anyone knows. But, as little as a couple of months ago, it appeared that the Airbus commands would get back on track as early as the end of this year. That prophesy appears to be wrong now. If I would guess, taking into account the arrival of the A380's, the recruiting difficulties (or at least recruiting those who are more willing to accept delays), the 'hints' of delays, the 2 year freeze for the poor bastards who have chosen the A380 right seat (then again they were told up front about that one, although I predict the company will come up with some excuse to keep them in the right seat well beyond 2 years after they switched fleets).... yes i'm cynical now.......... I would estimate most Airbus upgrades to be around 4 years for the foreseeable future. That is not that bad as long as that is what you are expecting prior to your arrival. It is just sad that it has come to that, when there was no need for any delays whatsoever.
3. It is easy to crew the arriving A380's and 777's if the company had any inclination towards a normal career progression for pilots. If they ran out of F/O's approaching 3 years, then certainly DEC's would be an option. Unfortunately, it is not the lack of 'upgradeable' F/O's that has motivated the insane DEC policy, so don't expect that to change. $$$$ is all that counts.
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For Fark's sake you guys, havent you clicked yet?
Go to Easy or Ryan or some other poxy 737 airline (Air Malta etc) and do your upgrade; get your hours and come here as a DEC on your first ever Heavy and 'proper' international flying. Thats the calibre of most DECs coming here..30 year olds from Malaysian for christs sake! This is a Mickey Mouse outfit so put your ears on and come on down.
Go to Easy or Ryan or some other poxy 737 airline (Air Malta etc) and do your upgrade; get your hours and come here as a DEC on your first ever Heavy and 'proper' international flying. Thats the calibre of most DECs coming here..30 year olds from Malaysian for christs sake! This is a Mickey Mouse outfit so put your ears on and come on down.